OT: Michigan or Ivy?

Thank you all for this discussion. Our 4th grade grand son is already thinking engineering-and Michigan. But we live out here in the middle of Podunkville, Kansas. He has a lot of organic intelligence going in his favor and is being advanced and challenged academically as much as possible here. We will keep supporting and encouraging him...see where the chips fall.

She should go to Princeton.  160k is nothing in the long term.  One half of one promotion in one job basically.  Michigan is a solid state school, but Princeton is a big deal.  What's more important to you than your daughter's long term success?  You gonna use that money to buy heated rear seats in your next car? Meh. You'd walk to work if it helped your daughter.  Princeton.  That's my vote.  I have 4 degrees, including 1 from Michigan, and have been on some admissions committees in other parts of the country.

Here's my two cents as a Michigan undergrad alum and Cornell graduate student.

The ivy league network is real. The floor for a non-Cornell Ivy League degree is seemingly investment banker at top banker or management consultant making ~$85k+. The floor is seemingly the ceiling at Michigan in Ross and Engineering. Additionally, most ivies grade inflate making it somewhat easier to complete the program (which is seemingly the opposite of Michigan engineering which weeds people out during Freshman / Sophomore year).

Michigan is absolutely amazing and the network has honestly been more powerful than my Cornell network, but I am lucky. Without a couple lucky breaks in undergrad I think that my life would be very different than it is now. I don't think these lucky breaks are as necessary at an Ivy League.

Congratulations either way! You should be extremely proud!

I chose Michigan over Columbia. My high school best friend picked Columbia over Michigan (and Stanford!). We’re both happy with our decisions. In other words, there is not a wrong choice here. 

Dude, I'm as much as a Michigan homer as possible, but Princeton>Michigan, no question. Your kid can always root for the Maize and Blue on TV.

My daughter is 18 and going through this as well.  We visited 29 schools in prep for her applications.  Williams was the most impressive to me along with 3 or 4 others.  My list did not match my daughters when it came time to send out the SAT, FAFSA\CSS profile and submit the actual apps.  None of my faves even got an app.

TLDR; We are letting her decide with the following caveats.

• We will re-visit her final 3 prior to her decision - this is going to help me way more than her
• She has to justify herself (it can't be a feels good thing...you got to have a take)
• We are being transparent with her re: the money we have for her school.  Any money she can save under that amount is hers when she graduates.  She understands money just a little bit more than academic imprimaturs.

If you are truly worried about this... you need more help than a blog can provide.  There's no perfect parenting or college decision.  

I'd say good luck but you already got that.  Maybe just chill out ... (that is said in the nicest fellow parent way possible.)

if it were me... I'd look at the finances, my goals and abilities ... and go to a community college for free for the first two years.  (my daughter's not doing that either... joy.)

I would wait and see the financial package she gets from Princeton if she gets in.  You might be surprised how competitive they will be with UM.  Maybe white female Engineering students are a priority for them this year.  Sounds like all things being equal she would prefer it there.  Tough decision, best of luck to her.  Neither option is a bad one, though!                                                                                      You might want to talk to her HS counselor-sometimes they will give us more information than they will give you.  (Does legitimately on their radar mean 25 percent chance or 75 percent chance?  If she did get in, what would an average aid package look like?)

I'm a Michigan alum and I went to high school in Princeton so I'm very familiar with the campus. 

If your daughter knows she wants to pursue Engineering then I would recommend that your daughter choose Michigan over Princeton for the following reasons:

1) Both are global, brand name recognized schools. If she were deciding between Princeton vs. a scholarship to Michigan State University, then I would definitely recommend Princeton as the Ivy league brand goes much further. 

2) Saving extra money on in-state tuition goes a loooooong way for you and your wife. 

3) Princeton is a nice city and has a nice campus and I always visit there whenever I come back home for the holidays. But there has always been something special about Ann Arbor that resonates to me to this very day. 

4) Back when i was at Michigan, the joke was that Michigan was an "Ivy League reject school" meaning if you ask 10 freshmen if Michigan were there first choice, probably 9/10 would say it wasn't and they came here b/c they got rejected from an Ivy League school. But by the time they graduate, i guarantee you that 10/10 of them would say they were so glad to have gone to Michigan instead of an Ivy League school.

Your daughter has a bright future either way and I'm sure you and your wife are proud of her whichever way she decides. 

Go Blue!

Based on my experience as a student at two Big Ten schools and as faculty at two Ivy league schools, I think each has advantages and disadvantages  

Partly for financial reasons, I first chose a 6-year BS MD program at NU over Brown.  That choice however, not only saved two years tuition, but it helped me grow socially in ways that I needed.  That would have been tougher to do as a Midwesterner at Brown.  One guy from the high school class before me ended up dropping out at Brown after one year due to the unfamiliar social atmosphere. 

After spending the last 30 years in the Boston-Providence area, however, I don’t share his feelings.  In fact, if I knew how comfortable I’d feel here in Providence, I would have preferred Brown over NU.   And going to an Ivy League school might have made it easier to climb the “Ivy Wall” later.  For two young students in my field, the academic network at Princeton recently helped them get faculty positions here at Brown.

But that can also happen at UM.  After NU, I got my PhD at UM.  And that eventually helped me get a faculty position at Harvard.   Indeed, my department chair there had himself done a post-doc at UM in the same program.   Also, I would not have given up my experience in Ann Arbor for anything.   

In any case, your daughter should not view her choice today as her ultimate destination.  She sounds very bright and can probably do whatever she wants later if she puts her mind to it.   

Michigan if she wants to have fun and Princeton if she is an uber smart (top 3% in the world) student that doesn't care about school / social balance.

Career choices are similar with that degree.

To repeat and consolidate some of the other thoughts:

1) Though it's tough to recognize in the middle of the college search, which can feel overwhelming, what matters most is what an earlier poster mentioned: how she approaches her work. The degree will matter getting the first job, and the college network will matter a bit longer, but getting right answers and good grades will matter less than problem solving and an ability to clearly present her thoughts. Then she will be forging her own networks. I write as a professor, including at the University of Michigan.

2) A MAJOR element of college education is what happens outside classes.

3) As for that first job, an engineer from a good school? If she does develop her problem-solving skills and an ability to articulate her thoughts clearly, she'll be in a good position.

P.S. I got dinged before for pointing out that people outside the Midwest confuse Michigan and Michigan State. That seems unlikely to Midwesterners heavily invested in their college or in college sports but in the other places I've lived (San Francisco, Oregon, Philadelphia, the west coast of Florida, New York City), it happens.

Which school has a better football team? There's your answer.

Just kidding. I'm a Michigan engineering grad and it has served me well but Ivy league could be a generational game changer for your child. Financials would be a serious consideration though as coming up with $300k is a lot harder then $120k.

As someone who graduated from UM engineering years aho and has worked with Ivy engineers (including two from Princeton), you can't go wrong with either.  Ivy's are great for networking and gaining a foothold into particular regions of the country, but the overall education is likely not going to be demonstrably different than a top school like UM.  So if she wants to go to UM, then go for it.  But if she really is set on Princeton then go there, but don't expect there to be a demonstrably different experience educationally.

Michigan

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-doctorate

Any degree from an Ivy is worth it. Like or not, it puts you in a rare club and the benefits that come with it are worth its weight in gold. The networking you get and the ease with which you get your first job is unbelievable. 

Michigan of course.  It is the only school that is the perfect balance between an extremely good school and extremely large and great at sports.  That’s why it’s michigan every time — it’s about more than academics — it’s about having the full experience and being great at academics. 

Well now wait a minute. If you play this right, she could go to msu and be the only one of hundreds of thousands of their students and alums that truly DID get accepted into UM but chose msu. She wouldn't have to lie about it like the rest of them. That's gotta count for something. 

I interviewed with an MIT alum who told me that if I applied I would be accepted. I only applied to Michigan engineering and I've never once regretted it.

Michigan, in my opinion, is the perfect combination of academics, athletics, social life, culture, research, and everything else that makes up the college experience. I've known people who went to schools that some might see as more prestigious, but I would never trade my college experience for theirs.

$30k - $70k a damn year... These universities make hand over fist in money. Why is it so damn high???

I’ve hired several Michigan Engineers, but no undergrad Ivy League ones. Michigan Engineering has many outstanding attributes.  The program is excellent, huge alumni base, highly ranked departments, very hands on curriculum and a wonderful entrepreneurial atmosphere. Plus massive new robotics building under construction. The students have amazing internship and full time job opportunities. The experiential part of their education tends to exceed that of most Engineering programs. Given the opportunities your child has I would not hesitate in picking Michigan Engineering. 

I am as biased a Michigan fan/alum as anyone active on this site, but if money is truly not an issue (tuition, multiple flights to/from east coast per year etc.) Princeton is the way to go. If you have an opportunity to enroll at one of these five schools (HYP, MIT, Stanford) you do it. 

That said, great predicament to be in and best of luck to your daughter. 

I've been working for an engineering company for two decades. In my opinion half the schools in the big ten have engineering schools rated high enough to get in the door at pretty much any company. Michigan's highly regarded. I would recommend she go to Michigan. If she feel in love with Princeton she should consider using the 160k in cost savings and try to get an MBA from Princeton. 

Michigan Engineering hands down

I feel like I have to weigh in here. Both my parents and my brother went to Michigan, we’ve had football season tickets from before I was born, and I have always been (and always will be) a huge Michigan fan. I grew up in Grand Rapids, and I attended Princeton for undergrad. I spent one summer during my undergrad years doing research at UM medical center and loved it, but I never attended the University of Michigan. I have spent lots and lots of time in Ann Arbor.

First, like many others have said, what a wonderful dilemma to have. Ultimately, she cannot go wrong, as both are truly excellent schools. You need to wait to see what Princeton says to make the final decision. I was told that it was an advantage to be from Michigan in admissions (for whatever reason), so that may work in her favor. Princeton (and now all the Ivies) now has a 100% need-meeting financial aid package, meaning everyone (even families with up to something like $180k income) get all need met with grants/scholarships/etc. So in response to all these responders saying $=easy answer: hold on. These two choices may be closer than you think.

If your daughter is absolutely set on engineering, Michigan may indeed be a stronger choice, especially for grad programs. However, kids change their minds all the time. Princeton is primarily focused on the undergraduate—their grad programs are small. I have lots of friends who got undergrad engineering degrees from Princeton and have done just fine.

I think the decision really comes down to where your daughter will be happiest for four years. My experience was that Princeton students were highly-motivated, very intelligent people from all over, who also (for the most part) liked to have a good time. I did not get the whole “uppity” thing people are referring to here. There are plenty of East Coast prep school students there, but there are lots more students from everywhere else. I had an incredible experience that I wouldn’t trade for anything.

At Princeton, you will miss out on Big Ten sports. But Princeton competes well in Division 1 in everything besides football. Check out the latest Directors Cup standings: UM #1, Princeton #2. It’s a much smaller school: 5500 students vs 23,000. I got plenty of guidance and assistance applying to medical school (I imagine the same applies to any grad school application), and I guarantee that Princeton was partly responsible for my success therein. Princeton has also led the nation for a number of years in percentage of alumni giving back, which you might use as a surrogate for alumni satisfaction.

Best of luck with this choice. I truly believe your daughter is very fortunate and cannot make a bad decision here. Just felt like I had to throw in my opinion as I felt I had a bit more insight than the average mgoblog reader.

Seriously?  You read this blog and you are asking this question?  Go Blue man.  Go Blue.

I'm not sure you have to wait on pins and needles since you already have the UM acceptance, it's not like you were deferred at UM, which would be imo, true pins and needles.  If she really felt that she fit in better at Princeton, would be happier there, and you can afford it, that's where you should go.  The academics are pretty similar, the campuses are very different though as you probably know.  If you need money for grad school, that may tilt to UM, imo if you want silicon valley, where I leave, that would also tilt to UM, east coast of course, wall street would be Princeton. 

You have the best public school in the world here, with a fantastic engineering program. If she really wants to go to Princeton, chip in the $30K per year.

Depends.  Does she think she really wants to do engineering as a career? 

If so, I think the Michigan Engineering degree is superior, especially from a cost/benefit ratio.  I've been involved in hiring for some of the biggest tech firms on the planet, and, in general, engineers don't give a **** about ivy-league degrees.  In terms of engineering, it just isn't considered super impressive.  Things like MIT, Stanford, Cal Berkeley, Cal Tech and Carnegie Mellon are what impress in Engineering, and according to US News, Michigan is #4, right smack dab in the middle of those schools.  Purdue is #6, another excellent engineering school.

Now, if she wants to go into business, or management, or things beyond engineering, Princeton may offer things that Michigan can't.  The Ivy Networking is real and powerful.  Michigan has great networking too, but it can't match what the Ivies do. 

But for anyone that wants to just be a great engineer, as an in-state Michigan student, I would absolutely go to Michigan and not think twice about it.  I had opportunities to go all kinds of places, but I stayed in Ann Arbor, and I've never regretted it, nor has it held me back at all.  Past my first job, no one really cared all that much what school I went to anyway.  They cared about my first job, which set up my entire career.  And I got my first job because the company's recruiter was from:

The University of Michigan. 

BSEE '94
 

Now you've got a hundred answers on either side... thanks internet. 

My own experience, I went to an Ivy for undergrad and when it came time to decide on Ivy again or Michigan, I chose Michigan. It was because of the environment. 

It was great to get out of the east coast where I'm from (location, independence, new family and friends), I loved Ann Arbor (immediate environment), I loved Detroit (closest metro area - cultural, social, out of classroom educational opportunities) and it made my LIFE and time and experience that much better. As a result, I made the most of my social life (being happy then as well as future network) and course offerings (education). So that's what made it the right decision. School is a set of opportunities that you will take advantage of, moreso if you're happy.

I can say that my 4 years undergrad experience was the complete opposite of those things, and we paid a fortune for me to be miserable around a bunch of entitled, also unhappy kids. 

If she’s sure about engineering, then do M and put the savings in an account that she can use to either live on or as a down payment for a future house (or grad school). If she’s not sure, I’d pick Princeton. The education is mostly the same in undergrad (though fellow students as a whole will be much smarter at Princeton). You can’t get the connections at Michigan that you can at Princeton, and if non-engineering, that will make up the difference in money. 

From someone who went to M undergrad and a school, though non-ivy, school for grad. 

I skipped through the thread so sorry if I missed this but - are you sure you have your tuition numbers right?

I haven't had a student pay full tuition at an Ivy League school in a long time - except for those kids for whom it isn't an issue at all. The Ivies are actually a fantastic deal these days if you can get in. So I guess what I'm saying is, is the extra $ a big difference to you? Because if it is, I highly doubt that you'd be paying that much if you got into Princeton.

If she wants to go the engineering route then I'd pick Michigan Engineering 6 days a week and twice on Sunday.  The finest public university in the country.  Save the money and get your daughter a better education.  And she's closer to home.  This is a no-brainer by any measure.  I was 4.0+ out of high school and chose Michigan Engineering and never regretted it for a second.  Campus life at Michigan is so much fun.  Good people.  Excellent support networks.  My gosh, I'd do it all over again if I could.

Asking this question on a Michigan message board suggests you’re hoping for a certain answer, which is the last thing you should be doing (and it’s not your decision anyways)!

“Princeton” on the resume tells people your daughter was one of the very best students in her year in the country.  “Michigan” says she was a very good student.  There is a difference.  That’s got to be balanced against the cost of Michigan and the fact that in the narrow field of engineering (which many students leave either at undergrad or for their first job) a Michigan degree is almost as good as a Princeton one.

Keep in mind that Princeton has less presence in “true” engineering fields because most of the top students are leaving engineering to work in finance.  I work with lots of them.  The good ones make an absolutely ungodly amount of money that would blow away 99.9% of engineers.  If you’re at Princeton, that’s not a fantasy, it’s a job that’s legitimately achievable.  Engineer money is very good, especially just out of school, but substantially less than the salaries available in the other fields that a Princeton degree sets you up for.  That’s why your daughter would have a difficult choice to make it admitted to Princeton.

If this was a choice between UM vs MIT, Cal Tech or Stanford instead of Princeton, it would be a closer call. But this is easy... Michigan.