OT: Lost - What They Died For Open Thread

Submitted by M-Wolverine on May 18th, 2010 at 9:20 PM
This one, and then the Finale. Comment live, or wait for reaction. And maybe it will make me forget the Lottery debacle...

Comments

maizenbluedevil

May 18th, 2010 at 10:15 PM ^

Me too.

Kind of a lame and anticlimactic way/time for him to die.  I mean, why then?  Seems kind of arbitrary. 

Then again that's also kind of true to life.  Death isn't always "meaningful" in real life like it tends to be in stories.  It just kind of happens a lot of times.  (Although, granted, not via Smoke Monster IRL.)  So, while I don't really like how Ricardus died, I also think it's a potentially interesting statement by the writers.  (I thought the same thing about the deaths of the Kwons, Sayid, and Frank FWIW.) 

MrVociferous

May 18th, 2010 at 10:13 PM ^

There hasn't been too many times where I've literally been on the edge of my seat watching TV (or a movie for that matter), but I was definitely there during the last 20 minutes of this episode.  I won't say much more at the risk of spoiling it for others, but I can't wait for Sunday.

wolverine1987

May 19th, 2010 at 8:27 AM ^

this series.  I was a huge Spranos fan, loved Band of Brothers, The Pacific, and a show in a similar genre, The X-Files.  But I've never watched a television show in my life where I was so invested, so interested, and on the edge of my seat like I have been for this series.  I really think its the best drama series that has ever been on television.

maizenbluedevil

May 18th, 2010 at 10:28 PM ^

Here's what I think we're in store for.

- Des is trying to gather everyone at the concert, obvsly.  I think we'll see that David's mother (Jack's ex-wife in the ALT) is Juliet.  We'll see that in the finale, and also at some point in the finale see Sawyer and Juliet having that cup of coffee.

- When Juliet said "it worked" in the seaon 5 finale....  she was mistaken.  She saw the ALT, and assumed (as one naturally would given circumstances) that it meant that the existence of the ALT was caused by the Incident/Jughead explosion. 

HOWEVA, I think what we'll see is that the existence of the ALT isn't due to the incident, but, something we have yet to see...  something we'll see in the finale.  In other words, the existence of the ALT is temporally subsequent and causally contingent to something we haven't seen yet. 

As result of what we saw in tonight's episode, I'm betting that it's the destruction of the Island. 

We know that

1)  MiB is planning on teaming up w/ Desmond to destroy the Island, and,

2)  In the season premiere, we saw the Island onthe bottom of the Pacific ocean, leading us to believe that plan will in fact succeed.

The writers could of course be leading us astray and wanting us to think that, but, let's just say hypothetically that it is what it is....  that the MiB will succeed in teaming up w/ Desmond and sinking the Island.

The implications of this are huge...  It then shifts the big question going into the finale from, "Who will win?" (in terms of the grnad conflict between Jacob and MiB) to, "is MiB really as bad as he seems?" 

I mean, after all, in the ALT, a lot of people's lives are much better overall.  It seems like a better universe for most - if not all - of the characters.

(And, as an aside, I've somewhat been expecting this for awhile - that the writers will humanize MiB and he won't end up being as bad as we thought.  They started that last week w/ his backstory, they may continue it in the finale.  It's something they've been up too..... blurring lines and complicating categories of good vs. evil since the beginning of the series.)

Anyhow.  If I'm right, it means the ALT is in essence an epilogue to the show...  happening subsequent to what we'll see in the finale...  and the question we'll be left with to answer is if it is a better reality for the characters. 

M-Wolverine

May 18th, 2010 at 11:10 PM ^

Jacob tells us nothing we didn't already know, that he screwed up, Jacob's kinda a douche, no? But I'm starting to think similar things. They love the whole Star Wars motif so much, could MiB be headed for his redemption? "Killing the Emperor", as it were? Because it ses like Desmond is trying to save him. Make him let go and forgive what was done to him. And they make it seem possible with Locke...Locke in the other life, and in Locke's body. And till Sunday night, I can't believe Locke was just a means to an end, a tool. It's always been about Locke and Jack (though Jack may have signed his death warrent by volunteering so fast...I was saying "too soon". But it'd be just like them to give the lead character who they were going to kill in the pilot a reprieve, only to kill him in the last). Can't help feeling that "Locke" is the "key".

Bighousemike84

May 18th, 2010 at 11:52 PM ^

Considering the untimely demise of John Locke at the hands of Linus, and the subsequent taking of his body by MiB. It was really satisfying to see the Alt. Locke begin to believe again. I had really missed that faith that he always had, I had really missed the man that believed when no one else would.

Awesome episode overall, I was captivated throughout and I am so anxious to get to Sunday to see what becomes of all my beloved losties.

VictorsValiant09

May 19th, 2010 at 12:56 AM ^

I love how the writers keep Ben and his intentions fluctuating.  The ambiguity fits with that character perfectly.  He just led the MiB to Widmore; I don't blame him, there was a rivalry there anyway.

Should be a mind-blowing finale.  I'm going to miss this show.

Bighousemike84

May 19th, 2010 at 1:31 AM ^

Yeah, I was really surprised at the sudden shift of Linus character. I had just begun to believe, completely, that Linus was genuinely sorry for what he ahd done and then he goes and willingly becomes Flockes assasin. I am wondering if there isnt some other motive involved that Ben is working towards and this is just a way of endearing himself to Flocke in order to get closer to him?

Tim Waymen

May 19th, 2010 at 1:56 AM ^

Wow.  That was an incredible episode.  Maybe I'm a bit dramatic, but that was seriously one of the best, most exciting episodes of the series.  I friggin loved it.  It could be all the chemicals rushing in my head because now everything is falling into place, but it was just amazing.  I'm still a bit worried that we won't find out some stuff, but I guess certain things don't really matter that much or are bits of unnecessary info.  I really want to find out about the temple.  Who built it and what purpose did it serve?  That would be pretty frustrating info to miss out on. I do think we'll find out about why they traveled through time (other than to save the writers' jobs) and what truly happened in The Incident.  On the other hand, certain hows and whys will probably not be answered and just remain mysterious components of Lost's lore.

Another amazing thing is that stuff with Ben.  Without saying too much, I love the show for those unexpected turns of events.  I just want to put it out there: Alex was not his daughter.  He cared for her, no doubt, but he stole her from her mother, who btw was a MILF when not all uglied up and dirty on the island.  (I just realized that that's analagous to Jacob and MiB's "mother.")  Even the man's positive attributes are rooted in evil.  Yes he saved her life from Whidmore (ahh so Ben has every reason to see him as trying to kill Alex from the very beginning--yeah I know, a little late to the party) and Jacob may have ordered it, but he still kidnapped a child and ruined her mother's life.

What an amazing show.  There may never be another.

Seth9

May 19th, 2010 at 3:35 AM ^

I am probably way way off on this, but my current theory can be summed up as such:

1. The island is kept afloat by the light/humongous amount of electromagnetic energy. It is also what is being contained within the island in Jacob's cork analogy.

2. The aforementioned "cork" is located within that source of light at the heart of the island. Desmond, who can survive massive electromagnetic events, will go into the source of light and pull out the metaphorical cork, releasing the light into the world.

3. This act of releasing the light into the world will make the world a somewhat better place, although if it is scattered about the globe, it's impact could and should be limited. This is why the world is only a marginal better place in the Sideverse, which is hopefully created as a result of the release of this light.

4. Hopefully, this event will translate through time in such a manner that it makes sense that the detonation of the nuclear warhead in season five makes some sense in terms of temporal mechanics.

5. Jack will battle the smoke monster/MIB/what-have-you to prevent the evil within him from tainting the good that will be released into the world via the light. Ben will betray Locke and assist Jack.

6. In the Sideverse, pretty much every major character will meet at the concert (or after the concert or something). At this meeting, they will all remember their experiences on the island, and the episode will end on a note that expresses how Lost was an epic myth discussing the nature and condition of humanity.

7. The island itself is a utopia of sorts created by the light or the source of life and good. This is the reason why people manage to heal on the island so easily, among other things. One of the major points of the finale, and the series in general, is that humanity is highly complex and morally flawed, which is why so many characters perceive the Island as a dystopia. The reason that the light should be released into the world is that its release will benefit humanity, whereas concentrating it in one place does not, because most people cannot appreciate the Island for what it is.

8. The idea of the Sideverse being a place that exists after the Island is sunk is important, particularly because it appears that everyone will remember what happened on the Island, because the Island is Eden. The destruction of the Island as seen in the Sideverse is an allegory for the expulsion from Eden. One of the major points made by the series will be that humanity, for the most part, is better off not living, or at least is not ready/able to live in Eden.

That about sums up the major points. I'm not going to make many guesses on how they'll try to write conclusions for the characters for the most part because I think that on this show, it is secondary to the goal of concluding the sweeping narrative arc, which in the tradition of many science fiction stories told on an epic scale, such as 2001: A Space Odyssey, the movie being a better example than the book, The Ophiuchi Hotline, and the reimaged Battlestar Galactica, is supposed to be a myth of the human species.

tricks574

May 19th, 2010 at 3:37 AM ^

Not that I have anything against it, I just missed the boat and never bothered to catch up. Still, as a sort of third party observer, it is still fascinating to see peoples reactions to it. I'm anxious for the finale just to see how the general public reacts. Which speaks a lot to the show and its writers.

MDTCaptain

May 19th, 2010 at 6:06 AM ^

...that the LOST writers have imaginations as good as those posting on forums.  Does anyone wonder if they scoured the internets for ideas on how to wrap up?

Sven_Da_M

May 19th, 2010 at 7:35 AM ^

... after the first season.

But I think I read somewhere that JJ Abrams and the writers had this all mapped out from the start.

Keeping the actors in the dark until the end is one cool thing about it; they may have been as lost as the viewers...

Beavis

May 19th, 2010 at 9:46 AM ^

I think you're wrong about that.

Bill Simmons had one of the writers on a recent podcast of his and he basically admitted "we were just writing by the seat of our pants until we got a guarantee from ABC, then we sat down and planned out how it was going to end".

I think this happened in either season 2 or 3, where ABC struck a deal that said "this show will last for X episodes, get to work". 

France719

May 19th, 2010 at 10:43 AM ^

I also heard that podcast and although it is slightly disappointing to hear that they semi-made it up as they went, it's kind of cool to hear how they went about it.  He made a great point: They were not filming this show in a vacuum.  They had to deal with the networks wanting to have their say in it, actors wanting out, and all the other headaches that prevent a any TV producer form putting their ideal product on the screen. 

A great example of this is none other than...Mr. Eko.  Orginally, they planned on Eko having a much larger role than what made it into the show.  Most people were of the opinion that killing Eko made little sense...and they were right.  However, the actor that played Eko didn't enjoy having to stay in Hawaii for large parts of the year, so he wanted out.  So, they had to kill him off. 

Sort of the opposite happened for Ben Linus.  Originally, they brought in Michael Emerson for 3 episodes.  Their plan was if he worked out, they would reveal him as the lead of the others.  If they didn't like what they got out of him, they would just have him killed off and be some random other that they captured.  As everyone is aware, Emerson has been arguably the best actor on lost since he joined, and it was his great acting, coupled with Eko's departure, that lead to him being in 8 episodes in his inaugrual season and coming on as a series regular the following season.

Jon Benke

May 19th, 2010 at 8:04 PM ^

Which ABC picked up as a series, where the writers then took the 8 episode mini-series and turned it into what was Season 1, and why season one was so good.  Going into season two, they went into a direction that I don't think they really knew where they were going, but they knew if they tossed in enough weird stuff, fully lead by the then ultra fascinating Dharma Initiative, they knew they could buy themselves enough time to figure out where they were going...  It's also why season three was so bad, but like mentioned above, once the writers got word from ABC, three more seasons and you're done, the show started down this path of where we are today.  Could it have been better had they known where we'd be today in the first few seasons, of course, but that doesn't take away from the job they did in taking a show that lost so much ratings, mostly in part of season three, to bein' back amongst the most talked about shows of all time.  That was very impressive.

They can't explain everything, I know this now, mostly because stuff they mentioned in the first few seasons, honestly, just isn't important anymore...  I'd like to better understand the time traveling aspect, and how there was this big ass temple in the middle of the island that no one seemed to even mention till much later in the series...  They never even mentioned how the stewardess from the original flight, and how she went mysteriously missing on the hike back to the main camp...season two/the back group.  They never said how she ended up at the temple, or how she became someone so important , or so it seemed when we last saw her ... you know, before she died with very little explanation other than --- this is where she was.  I'm okay with all that.

The other thing that hampered to the show, and it's not the fault of the writers, was the two huge DUIs that were given to characters Libby and Ana Lucia; Cynthis Watros and Michelle Rodriguez...  On the same day.  That sucked, cause ABC had to fire and let go two characters that were huge to where the story was goin at the time, even if sort of loose and with not much true direction, losing two characters you were using for major story arcs really hurt early on.  They have tried to bring back Libby, for the sake of Hugo, but it was way too late to go all the way back and to try and explain all that...  I am guessing that's something we'll just never know/understand.

I can't wait to see how it all ends!

JDevine11

May 19th, 2010 at 8:51 PM ^

First off this was a great episode and I'm extremely excited for the finale. I'm not going to speculate becuse I am just ready for the writers to amaze me. But a few of you have your facts wrong in regards of the creation of the series. ABC wanted a show that was a mix of Survivor, Cast Away, and Lord of the Flies. They first went to Jeffery Lieber who created the show Nowhere but ABC didn't like it enough and asked J.J. Abrams to create it. He became interested when he was told he could use supernaturual elements. Abrams then went to Lindelof and together they created the pilot, the show's 'bible,' and the first number of episodes. Some elements were realized in the begining, for example that a figure would represent light(Jacob) and black(MIB), amoung other things. Then when it was renewed in the middle of the first season Abrams left (to create more series and movies) and Cuse joined Lindelof as a showrunner. After this they crafted the rest(most) of the story around what had been set up already. The direction would change because of actors and other factors. When they were given to 2010 end date(which they asked for) in 2007, it really allowed Cuse and Lindelof to tell their story. http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Lost

maizenbluedevil

May 20th, 2010 at 3:15 PM ^

I stumbled across that podcast too and it was actually really good.  Like an hour long, with Carlton Cuse.  Damon and Carlton don't give interviews that long that often.

As for "are they making it up / did they have it planned all along?" that's a huge debate in the LOST fan community.

The question is framed in a way that expresses the belief of many fans that it would be a disappointment if they didn't have it all planned out all along, and are making it up as they go along.

The reality is somewhere between those 2 poles.  The fact is, that writing for TV (Keep in mind LOST spanned 6 years and 121 hours) is not like writing a movie or novel, where you write the whole thing at one time and then have the finished product.  Each episode (and you could also say each season) is produced and released before the next is written.  This is common sense, of course, but, I don't think most people realize the logistical challenges hat this set of circumstances unique to writing TV presents.  Because of this, it's impossible that they had it all planned out all along.

Here's what we know:

1)  It was scheduled initially for 12 episodes.  Darlton (Damon and Carlton, the main writers) have said numerous places that they just wnated to make the 12 best damn episodes of TV they could.  They had some general ideas at this point about the mythology of the show and the sort of main story arcs but not much more, they sowed the seeds for it in these early episodes (things like Christian Shephard appearing, the skeletons in the cave, the Monster, e.g.) but didn't even really begin telling those stories until later.

2)  After the show was picked up, they fleshed out what they wanted to do...  high points they wanted to hit in the story, and end game.  But, until an end date was set, they were kind of stalling on telling these stories.  The end date was set sometime in season 3, righht before they wrote the finale.  They knew that once they started doing flashforwards, that was sort of "the beginning of the end" (which is also the title of the season 4 premiere) and there was no turning back at that point, which is why they felt comfortable making that move (to flashforwards) at that time.

3)  While they have had the main points sketched out, they've filled in details, as they went along, that they didn't plan on.  An example is Ben being the leader of the others.

Anyhow, this post is getting long.  To answer the question, did they have it planned out or are they making it up?  The answer is yes/both.   

The Big House

May 19th, 2010 at 7:42 AM ^

Any theories on why the cut on Jack's neck keeps bleeding out? Is it foreshadowing his imminent death at the hands of Locke's knife (or someone else's knife)?

PinballPete

May 19th, 2010 at 6:29 PM ^

I"ve been looking forward to an explanation of the statue since it was first shown. It certainly resembles a few different Egyptian deities. Here are the pics:

From Lost notice the hippo or crocodile head on a human body and the two Ankhs, one in either hand:

Whether the Lost statue is male or female would probably determine which of the nect two it is supposed to resemble. Now look at these statues of ancient Egyptian deities.

 

Tawaret (if female)

or some comparisons

and

 

Sobek (if male)

 

 

With so many different interpretations of the Ancient Egyptian Gods and their meanings (the Egyptian Gods changed roles over the course of the ages) its difficult to read into what it symbolizes for the show. Sobek as a protector seems appropriate. I'm trying to find a picture of the statue from the front to determine whether its male or female. Thoughs?

PinballPete

May 20th, 2010 at 1:11 PM ^

It certainly is Tawaret and it's sort of works but she was primarily a fertility goddess, notice how whe's always pregnant in her statues. This is ironic because apparently children can't be conceived on the island.

 

This isn't the only interpretation of tawaret so it's not that big of a deal. Re-reading the link of tawaret above it seems perfectly plausible to annoint her as a protector and maybe she was chosen because women can't bear children. Thanks again for the link.