OT Law school question
I have a question for the mgolawyers and those currently in law school. Is it worth it and would it be wise to take a scholarship at a lesser school or take out loans to go to a school that is ranked a little higher? I am graduating from Western Michigan this coming Saturday with a degree in criminal justice and a minor in social work and have spent the last two years doing everything necessary to get ready for law school. I have recently been accepted at Wayne State (currently waiting for scholarship info), have a 75% scholarship at Michigan State, have been placed on waiting lists at Iowa and Wisconsin, and am still waiting to hear back from Chicago-Kent. The reason that I am asking if it's worth it is because the closer I get to quitting my job and enrolling in a school the more second-guessing I am doing. I am particularly worried about quitting my job because although I hate it, it pays quite well and I have a famliy to support. My wife and I have crunched the numbers and it will be possible to live on her income for the next 3-4 years but after that it will be tough. Any info you guys could give me would be great. And I am prepared for the snarky comments for considering sparty law.
Edit: I just checked my status at Wayne State and it shows on Friday they mailed out a scholarship acceptance form.
This is probably not at all what you want to hear / may not even be an option for you at this point, but please for your own sake and your wife's sake and the sake of your career opportunities in both the immediate and long term, PLEASE do not go to lawl school. Not only has the deep recession & slow recovery decimated new lawyers' employment prospects, but the legal industry is undergoing a fundamental structural change. Document review - the labor-intensive, incredibly tedious job that was the only entry point for lower-tier law school graduates to snag a job with BigLaw - is going to be entirely computerized within a generation (or sooner), eliminating yet another substantial chunk of available jobs. Meanwhile, hiring freezes at DOJ and across virtually all state and municipal governments make criminal prosecution an unrealistic option for most law school matriculants, and the diminution of legal staff on the prosecutory side is having a negative externality on hiring in the criminal defense sector as well. Political movements toward simplifying the internal revenue code and bankruptcy law are still inchoate but pose a significant threat to those sectors of legal practice down the road.
Law school is basically a cash cow for universities, but even if you've got a major scholarship in the bag, I don't think it's worth the time and opportunity cost. One point on which I have to disagree with the above poster: The legal market is so bad right now that even a school like Michigan (in the elite "top 14" of law school rankings) has had an atrocious success rate at on-campus interviews the last several years. There are enough unemployed Yale, Harvard, and Stanford grads that schools further down the food chain aren't even getting a serious look.
TL;DR - There are no jobs. It's called "lawl" school for a reason. Avoid at all costs.
This is what I have been hearing more often than not and it's rather depressing. I have literally put myself through hell the last two years working crazy hours and taking a full load of classes on top of trying to raise a family. It's looking more and more like it was all for nothing. During this whole process I kept telling myself that my work ethic would seperate me from the crowd but I think I might have been denial.
You could consider taking the civil service examination. If you've been preparing for law school, your preparation would serve you well there. There are areas of government that are hiring, and while the pay may not be top-notch, a government job can be extremely rewarding and have great perks/job security.
April 23rd, 2012 at 12:47 PM ^
Civil service is changing, too. Just look at how underfunded the pension and post retirement benefits are in many municipalities (e.g. Illinois). Where there are generous packages, these are under intense scrutiny like never before.
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:16 AM ^
I have to agree with the others. Law school isn't the guarantee it used to be. Not only are the jobs available for new (and hell, even experienced) attorneys becoming less plentiful, but they are paying a lot less unless you get into the Big Law firms. (Put it this way: is it worth it to suffer through law school, only to graduate to a job that pays, say, $40k? Because that's the reality for a lot of grads, and those are just the ones that can find jobs.) It is possible to get hired by one of them from Wayne, etc., but it's much easier to get there from a place like Michigan.
Personally, I've advised those that have asked me to not go to law school if they have other options, unless it's their absolute dream that they don't mind taking much less than they might expect. Almost all of them have gone on to law school anyway. All but one has told me that they regret it. (The one moved to another state and I haven't kept tabs to know how she's doing.)
April 22nd, 2012 at 12:54 PM ^
Great advice. I'd almost say the ONLY reason to go is if A. you get all or most all of it paid for. B. Your desired dream career path is something that could be greatly enhanced by going. and C. that career path is NOT Lawyer.
Don't be a lawyer and don't do law school unless you can come out basically debt free.
Unless you like hellish hours with super high stress and comparitively low pay where the work you do accomplishes basically nothing but inertia and acrimony. If that all sounds great, lawyer is the perfect job.
If you go to law school have a definite objective in mind for work either in the government or some other private sector job. Like the FBI for instance loves JD degrees.
Make sure you report back and tell us how it's going with your decision.
April 22nd, 2012 at 12:55 PM ^
Great advice. I'd almost say the ONLY reason to go is if A. you get all or most all of it paid for. B. Your desired dream career path is something that could be greatly enhanced by going. and C. that career path is NOT Lawyer.
Don't be a lawyer and don't do law school unless you can come out basically debt free.
Unless you like hellish hours with super high stress and comparitively low pay where the work you do accomplishes basically nothing but inertia and acrimony. If that all sounds great, lawyer is the perfect job.
If you go to law school have a definite objective in mind for work either in the government or some other private sector job. Like the FBI for instance loves JD degrees.
Make sure you report back and tell us how it's going with your decision.
April 23rd, 2012 at 10:46 AM ^
Your point about doc review is extremely important. And it's already taking place. Part of the reason hiring is so bad is because firms are already using far fewer associates on doc review projects. In 5 years - or fewer - the only people working on doc review will be the non-attorneys managing the software and procedures.
April 22nd, 2012 at 11:59 AM ^
I know it's not what you want to hear, but I'm BEGGING you not to go with that offer sheet.
It has nothing to do with elitism either. I'm not saying you're not a smart guy or that those schools are "shitty." I'm saying that the legal profession is prestige-obsessed when it comes to hiring and even the big guys are in trouble with employment statistics. I'm a Columbia Law grad (#4 USNWR) and my class had 84% hiring. I want you to think about that. There are Ivy League educated lawyers who cannot find work.
Now that these points have been drilled in to your head by me and the other posters, please let me add a few other points to consider. First, the employment picture has been improving. Law hiring will never be what it once was because of systemic changes within law as a profession (and because of systemic changes within investment banking as a profession, which used to feed the "top" law firms) but law, as a parasitic profession (meaning that we need somebody else to make money before we make money) has bounced back about halfway I would estimate since the bloodbath of the recession. Make no mistake - if you graduated law school in 2010, you were fucked. Seriously, straight up fucked. The class of 2010 at Columbia had a hiring rate of just over 50%. The rumor I've heard from multiple people was that Harvard Fucking Law School managed to get only about 75% of its grads from that year jobs. Those grads are cooked, too - law firms aren't coming back to them when they want to hire (now diminished numbers of) first-year attorneys, they're hiring recent grads. They're a lost generation encumbered with non-dischargable debt in the six digit range, forever doomed. This isn't hyperbole. In conclusion, while the gnashing and wailing days of around 2010 are in fact gone, it's never going to be the way it was in 2003 or so.
Second, of those law schools you're looking at, MSU does by far the best. MSU grads don't have a good chance at success overall, but the top of the class at MSU gets good offers. Good is the key term - I know a guy who graduated summa in 2011 who was fourth in the class who is a Michigan state appellate court clerk. That's a good job but not a great one and it certainly wouldn't pay the debt if he had any.
Third, it is impossible to predict your success in law school. Full stop. It is not like undergrad in this regard. If your scholarship requires you to be at a certain percentile of the class to keep it, throw it away because it's just a useless piece of paper.
Fourth, remember that any debt you acquire is not dischargable in bankruptcy. While tools like IBR and your school's LRAP program might be able to mitigate your loss, you might literally make a mistake that will prevent you from ever being a financial success if you go to law school and aren't able to find a good job. Someone of the previous generation is going to read that last sentence and roll their eyes but I challenge you, dear reader - suppose you had $150K + in debt that cannot be discharged in bankruptcy and that you cannot hope to get a job to pay off. What would you do? That is the totally real, completely unembellished position thousands upon thousands of law school graduates find themselves in.
This is a long enough post so I will conclude with this: going to law school is like entering your name into a lottery. The odds of the lottery are not terrible as lotteries go, but think about the outcomes; if you "win," you have a ticket to get a job which most people are unsatisified with but that a percentage of people love and which might pay well. If you lose your financial life is literally over and you will be unable to ever support yourself or your family for the rest of your life.
Do not play the lottery. Do not go to law school.
April 22nd, 2012 at 12:43 PM ^
I agree with all of this, except to say that if he has a scholarship of 75% or better, and knows what attorneys do and that he could be reasonably happy as one, then it may be worth it.
Beyond these things, however, this terrifying post above is a must-read for anyone considering law school.
Twenty years after you have graduated and have a work history that shows an employer what you can do, many employers still won't consider you unless your degree is from a name law school and you were on law review.
If you're going to law school, go to the best one you can get into. I think that's Wisconsin from the list you gave. That's especially true if you will be leaving Michigan when you graduate.
Very exciting stuff! It has been 20 years since I went to law school. Turns out law was not the calling for me, but I did get to take commercial transactions from JJ White, which as one attorney pointed out is like taking religion from God, so that is something. After my second year, the country was in a recession and firms were laying attorneys off in huge numbers. Many students were having trouble finding summer work and the prospects for third year did not look much better. One classmate of mine had circumstances similar to yours: he and his wife had moved their children for the law school opportunity and they borrowed substantially to do it. The fundamental economics of the decision are the same now as they were then: will the good name of a higher ranked law school help you find better-paying work more quickly, justifying the increased expense? The short answer is, it might. The critical questions for you, I think, are how devoted and deep are the alumni in the area? Will they look out for you? Help you out? People will tell you that five years after you graduate your degree doesn't matter because you rely on your body of work at that point. I respectfully disagree with that. While you certainly need to develop a resume, I think the world always looks at the name on your diploma and the network of a strong group of alumni can support you for the rest of your life.
There is no easy answer. Congratulations on your acceptances thus far and best of luck.
April 23rd, 2012 at 10:30 AM ^
I just mentioned him the other day to the lawyer handling my company's UCC 2-207 battle of the fomrs issue with a vendor. i broke out my WHite & Summers hornbook. HE is still teaching (acording to WIki he is still not retired).
The quality of your law school not only speaks to your legal education, but its a measuring stick of your inate skills. The fact that a better achool admitted you means, you were good enough to get in.
This is why lesser schools will give you scholarships. Make your decision tough. But THIS IS A CAREER-LONG DECISION. You should go to the best school you can afford, it should pay off in the long run.
Agree with this completely. If you do go to law school (which, see my comment supra, you should not), go to the top-ranked one without regard to any other factors. I've never seen a group of people with more of a prestige fetish than the legal profession.
As a recent law grad, this is bad and outdated advice. You should only go to best school you get into if you get into a T-14 school. Other than that, go to the best regional flagship law school around that gives you good scholarship money (for Detroit, Wayne State). Jobs are scarce now and the chance that you'll be unemployed at graduation is much much higher than it used to be. Avoid law debt like the plague, because there's a good chance you won't be able to find a job - period.
If you decide you want to go to law school, take the scholarship money. There is a negligible difference between the schools you listed (WSU, MSU, etc). If you're staying in Michigan and don't get into U of M, go wherever you get the biggest scholarship (except for Cooley...never go to Cooley under any circumstances...seriously).
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:12 AM ^
Recent MLaw grad here. Outside of the top schools, there is not much difference. Take the scholarship, or don't go at all (and I would lean toward the latter).
If you do well, after your first year at Wayne State, you can attempt to transfer to a top school like Michigan. But even that is no guarantee as I still have friends that graduated from UM in the past couple years who have yet to find steady employment.
If you've got dreams of working at a large law firm, read this: http://abovethelaw.com/2012/04/nalp-2012-good-news-weve-probably-hit-th…
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:48 AM ^
At the bottom of the story it says "comments hidden for your protection." I think that fits quite well.
A few more words of advice:
Going to Top14 always gets you in the door and is incredibly helpful. As a general matter, going to a better school helps, but graduating around 50% from the 40th law school in the country (whatever it is...I think Wisco is around 35) isn't as helpful as graduating Top 10% from Wayne or MSU. One of the biggest things you need to ask yourself is where do you want to live and practice? Outside of Top14, that is a determining factor. If you graduate from Iowa or Wisco, you probably are working in those states or possibly in Chicago. As others have mentioned, the alumni networks are crucial in helping you find a job. As a 1L, I have a summer clerkship because a firm that does some business with my uncle's firm had a Loyola guy there who took my resume and set up an interview there for me. Alumni connections tend to be the strongest where you went to school. Also, if you graduate from a lawschool in Wisco, I believe you do not have to take the Bar there (do not quote me on this, can't really remember). If you want to stay in Michigan, there is no reason to go to Iowa and really little reason to go to Wisco. As others mentioned, Michigan firms and companies tend to hire out of Wayne and then MSU. Wayne has a great reputation in Michigan, especially considering so many UofM law grads leave Michigan to go elsewhere. As mentioned above, I am a 1L at Loyola and am on half scholarship, and I can say that scholarship is really nice and will help lessen the burden on me when I graduate. I would advocate Wayne or even MSU as they have been doing better in rankings lately. I remember from judicial classes at UofM (undergrad) and working at a law firm that Wayne does really well in Michigan. Unless you have a particular subject in mind that you know you want to do, Wayne or MSU cannot do you wrong.
Investigate scholarship requirements since some schools screw you on it (Loyola does not which is awesome).
Rankings can be fluid (not for Top14 or even really Top25). Loyola was 82ish when I first investigated schools and now is 63ish two years later.
Cities are helpful. Chicago has lots of opportunities and that mitigates the tough market (a bit).
Also, from what I have been hearing around Chicago is that firms are hiring more now and the market is recovering. It is not what it was before but it is getting there. That being said, the law profession is changing and that is going to affect supply negatively. Add the fact that competition for spots is becoming more intense, it creates a tougher situation for lawyers than it used to be. You really need to stand out or have connections to get you opportunities to shine.
Finally, make sure you at least can stomach the people at your school. I like most people at my school, but some of the schools were not as appealling.
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:21 AM ^
Sorry, I should've clarified. This is totally true, but my opinion is also conditioned on the premise that if you aren't going to a T14 school, you probably shouldn't go to law school right now at all.
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:25 AM ^
I second this.
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:38 AM ^
April 22nd, 2012 at 11:57 AM ^
Another thing to look at is what conditions MSU puts on their scholarships. A lot of schools will place strict conditions on keeping your scholly once you're there, like a minimum 3.5 GPA or something when the grading curve is a C average. In other words, after your first semester or two, you're going to a) lose the scholarship and b) not be able to transfer out.
In third- and fourth-tier schools like Cooley, it's not uncommon to put all the scholarship recipients in the same section, thus ensuring that most of them will lose their scholarships and be stuck paying tuition for the last two years.
Class of '11 grad, solo practitioner, $100K+ in debt, and I went to a T1 school (not Ohio State).
April 22nd, 2012 at 12:03 PM ^
Hello Columbia Law/Wolverine brother. I feel you.
I took a Midlaw job. I wonder if I know you in real life...
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:24 PM ^
It was really only the top third of your class at Columbia going to BigLaw? I find that hard to believe. What year did you graduate? Northwestern is probably sending about half of its class to BigLaw this year, and they always have high numbers, but I can't believe there's that much of a gap.
April 22nd, 2012 at 11:19 PM ^
Stories of people like your friends is what scares me. I'm afraid of quitting my job and taking on a ton of debt only to end up at a lower paying job.
Yes, and another wrinkle is that it is very hard to project what the job market will look like in 3 years. I think you need to run some conservative salary projections and debt service estimates through an excel chart. If the financial aspect of the decision doesn't add up, I would be worried about putting your family through that.
April 22nd, 2012 at 11:59 AM ^
The ABA is talking about accrediting foreign law schools, and firms are already outsourcing a lot of the work that traditionally was done by associates to India. If Bombay Law gets accredited, that's pretty much the death knell for associate jobs in the U.S.
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:00 AM ^
I currently work as a federal contractor. I do not make a ton of money, but because the cost of living is so low in STL, I can live like a king here. If I went to either Wash U. or SLU law school, I'd be looking at 100K in student loans, and would most likely have to sell my house because I wouldn't be able to afford a mortgage plus law school debt. I graduated from the U. of San Francisco in 1997, and was immediately $30K in debt (back then, USF was $14,440/year, which is nothing when you consider the school is now something like $34K a year in straight tuition). However, it's now 2012, and I still have around $3K in federal loans to pay off. I'm really not insterested in paying off any more school loans after paying them off for 15 years.
Regarding the overall job situation for people with advanced degrees: it's a mess right now. My wife has a PhD in chemistry and currently works as a research scientist at Wash U. med school, which is one of the Top 10 med schools in the US right now. Despite having a bunch of chem companies here (Monsanto, Sigma-Aldrich, Mallincrockdt), she is basically doomed to work as a post doc for the time being because to save money, the major chem companies laid their PhD's off and outsourced the work to India.
A friend of ours is a Michigan grad who earned his PhD in astro physics last year from Wash U. He was laid of by Boeing because once he earned his doctorate, they didn't want to give him a raise. He's now teaching math & physics at a local JC and building handmate guitar amps and effects pedals.
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:34 AM ^
PhD land ... what a @#$%ing mess.
Anyway, this seems like a good place to put my two bits. Every couple months or so I have dinner with a group composed mostly of lawyers who are in document-review hell. (Aside, you can read about it here and probably hundreds of other sites: http://www.temporaryattorney.blogspot.com/). All but one (including two from UMich) went to what I believe are top-tier schools. Details of their career paths vary, but a common tale involves getting jettisoned by a large firm (in Chicago) when things went south a few years ago. Salary drops from $###,### to $##,### actually happen.
OP: How is the CNC machinist market? I keep reading articles about how companies are looking for skilled workers *just like you*, but for all I know they could be corporate codswallop and part of the never-ending quest to get temporary overseas workers here.
April 22nd, 2012 at 11:01 AM ^
CNC market isn't what it used to be. I work for an extemely large aerospace company (not Boeing) and when everything went to shit the company implemented a two-tier pay scale. Any hires after August 2009 make about 1/2 to 2/3 of what they normally would have. There are some companies still hiring but the majority of them are low paying, even the unionized shops. The CNC jobs that are still paying top dollar are highly competitive due to the large number of machinists that lost their jobs when the automotive market tanked.
April 22nd, 2012 at 12:03 PM ^
Interesting ... thanks. Congratulations on the degree (the one you'll be getting soon) and best wishes with the challenging decision.
+1 for the GoBlue kids in the picture (yours, presumably).
I'm a Michigan grad and have been a practicing lawyer for almost 13 years. I don't think that getting anything less than a top ten or fifteen law degree in this economy is going to pay off. I agree with the previous post about prestige of law schools . . . to this day I am judged by the rep of my alma mater. You would be better of if you could find a job, any job, though preferably one that requires a high degree of skill in any field, and spend your off hours doing volunteer work in local politics or a national campaign, or otherwise dressing up your resume for a law school application in 2-3 years. You will need resume material for the year between 1L and 2L anyway, and the top tier law schools just love politcal work.
I have a job that requires a decent amount of skill and that is what is making me second guess law school. I have been a CNC machinist for the past 11 years and have been with my current employer for the past 8.
I was in your situation 20 + years ago, and well know the anxiety and pressure you face. You must ask yourself whether you really want to be a lawyer, and if so what kind. Law school sucks. The professional pressures can be daunting. And the market for new hires is rotten. Having said that, law can be an incredibly rewarding profession. People always bitch about lawyers, but whom do they call when Junior gets a DUI or when a business is crumbling? We lawyers take great pride in serving others.
Have you interned anywhere? Your major & minor suggest criminal defense law. Most lawyers will gladly accept free help and give you advice. Your local prosecutor's office should have opportunities as well. Also, go watch a few trials in person. Observe how the lawyers and judges act. You'll learn a lot simply by observing.
Consider where you want to live? If you want to live in MI, take the schollies. The first few years of practice are very stressful for you and your familiy. No sense piling debt on top of that. Very few lawyers make a bunch of money starting out. Anyone in MI / Northern OH will know of Wayne State & Sparty law. Some of my partners are still paying law school debt and they've been out for 10 - 15 years. Why put yourself in the debt boat? Once you've been out for 5 years, no one cares where you went to law school. It's all based on relationships. Your clients who know and trust you will refer others to you.
Talk to a lot of lawyers, do your research and follow your heart. Do what you want to do, and you'll always have food on the table. Good luck!
As background, I am at a large NYC law firm, have been there for over a decade, and admittedly I make a great living (although don't get me started on the high cost of living in NYC). But, I have so many frieda who have been out of law school for a decade and have yet to sniff sox figures. Many came out of law school making less than an elementary school teacher would make, while working worse hours and being saddled with law school debt. Law really is a tale of two professions. If you are at a top firm, or if you manage to ultimately become a partner in a smaller firm that is lucrative, you can do really well. But, for far more lawyers, you will not make any more than in a non-law job while working harder. So, think about where you see yourself in 5 years. If it is not at a big firm, just know that the $$ will likely not be much better than any average pay job.
Second piece of advice: if you do want to go to law school, the better shools will ion many more doors than the lower table schools. I wood go to the best school that you get into.
Good luck.
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:29 AM ^
I would just add that even if you get that big law firm job that many law students dream of, prepare to be disappointed. Some people are cut out for it but most people I knew at my firm were, like me, desperately trying to get out or lateral to another firm where they thought they would be happier (which almost always turned out to not be the case). It is a tough industry, yes you make good money but until you make equity partner (not income partner) it is a stressful lifestyle. I can only speak of my biglaw experience since i joined one in Chicago doing corporate law right out of school and thankfully got out after 3 years to start a business. That being said, having a legal background has helped me tremendously in my life and business and I do know some lawyers who are happy with their job, though again not usually in a big firm. If you know what you want do with your degree, I would do as much research now into what the job entails and if you would thrive in that environment, and just be very real with yourself. Unfortunately, I didnt do my diligence before going to law school and thought id just be happy getting into biglaw and making six figures. That was far from the case. Plus my friends in business and real estate were making far more than me, many with just their undergrad degree. Sorry to be so negative, just wanted to relay my experience. I do wish you and your family all the best with your decision.
Edit: Just for some context, this article pretty much summed up exactly my sentiments when I left my firm job. If you're going to law school to "be somebody," don't do it.
http://thepeoplestherapist.com/2011/05/25/all-that-and-then-some/#more-3347
I graduated from Michigan Law in 2006. I loved the experience and felt so blessed to be at a great law school (and that I was able to watch Mike Hart live every other weekend). The real reason (and not the reason in my essay) that I went to law school was because I (sort of) enjoyed the idea of being a lawyer and I grew up poor. I thought that being a lawyer would be a pretty good way of getting myself and my family into the solid middle class. I was lucky to find a very good job coming out of law school and am very thankful to have survived the recession.
My wife also graduated from law school (but a third tier law school). She paid a similar amount as me for law school (and she graduated with significantly more debt). She works as an assistant prosecutor now and makes a salary that she could have made with just a college degree, but she is very happy and she loves her job. Overall, I would say that our different choices worked out fine for each of us. That being said, we both work a TON of hours, but we're both very caffeinated and highly energetic people so it works for us.
Since I have a family of my own now, I totally understand how tough it must be to risk your family's financial well-being to undertake the venture of attending law school. My opinion would be to have a realistic idea about what type of job you will get out of law school and how much more money you would make with that job than your current job. Obviously, if you get substantially more marginal utility by being a lawyer, I would take that into account as well. In addition, have you considered staying at your current job or trying to move up in your career with a lateral position in your current industry (without having to expend resources for further education)? Congratulations again and I wish you the best of luck in making the right decision for you and your family!
Coastal Elite has it right. It's just a nightmare out there right now, and is unlikely to get better anytime soon. The placement stats are abysmal - even at places like Iowa and Wisconsin, which you mentioned specifically - and law schools are doing everything they can to hide this from you. (To give one example: my office had an intern last summer. Nice kid, and editor of the law review at a top 30 law school. And his job search has been a real struggle. If that's true of the law review editor, you can only imagine what it's like for his classmates.) Meanwhile tuition is absolutely through the roof, b/c there's no limit on the loans you can take out. All you're really doing is putting yourself 100K or more into debt so that the facutly at your school can make huge salaries (UM's law dean makes close to 500K). Given that you have a family to support already, IMO it'd be nuts to take on a 6 figure debt load that you may never be able to pay off (and which isn't dischargeable in bankruptcy) simply b/c you're unlikely to get a job that will pay enough to pay off your debt. Sorry to be such a pessimist, but I would strongly advise against taking any of the offers you've mentioned.
I would also highly recommend spending some time reading Paul Campos' blog, Inside the Law School Scam:
http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/
Campos is a professor at Colorado's law school (and a UM alum), and he has documented everything you're reading in this thread in extensive, depressing detail. Should be required reading for anyone considering law school.
Tough calls all around. I graduated almost a year ago, and I'm not sure how much helpful advice I can provide. The legal job market has improved, but is still nowhere near where it was four years ago (F*CK YOU LEHMAN BROTHERS). Good jobs exist, but the competition is fierce and the supply of lawyers outstrips the demand. It helps to go to a better school, but it's "safer" to graduate with less debt.
If you go to a school for the scholarship, be sure you know what the criteria are for keeping the scholarship. Some schools (and I would include MSU in this) put all of their scholarship students in one section, and condition future years' scholarships on staying in a certain percentile in one's section. The result is that some scholarship students are mathematically guaranteed to lose their scholarships after semester 1.
My biggest advice is that if you want to be a lawyer, go to law school. It can be a very rewarding and interesting profession. But if you want to make more money, and THAT'S why you're going to law school, I would reconsider.
Best of luck.
April 22nd, 2012 at 10:17 AM ^
When I was looking at law schools and considering MSU, I asked these questions. At that time, I was told that MSU distributes their scholarship students across sections. There was no mathematical necessity that anyone lose their scholarships. Also - scholarships were evaluated after the first year, not the first semester.
It could be different now - I don't know.
April 22nd, 2012 at 12:46 PM ^
Two Michigan fans arguing with each other. One that went to Notre Dame law, and the other seriously consider Moo U law. I have officially seen it all.
I did go to MSU and can say that they put about 2/3 of scholarship students in one section, which did lead to kids not keeping their scholarships after that first year. Though to be fair, the kids who lost it were the types that didn't put nearly enough effrot into school to do well; an "easier" section probably still would have had them at the lower end of the class.
Only go if you really want to be a lawyer, not because it's a ticket to a lot of money. If you're staying in Michigan to work, go to law school in Michigan. I don't think Wayne and MSU are that different - so take the one that offers you the most money. The student loans are the most crippling thing. There are jobs out there if you don't have to pay back $100k in loans. Also, if you do go, get on law review or graduate at least cum laude if you can.