OT: Games of Thrones 6/2/13

Submitted by M-Wolverine on June 2nd, 2013 at 9:06 PM
Only two episodes left in the season. Tonight- "The Winds of Castamere." Wonder if we'll get a cool song for that.

Comments

Blue in Yarmouth

June 3rd, 2013 at 10:38 AM ^

My wife hasn't read the books and she was disgusted that Jon would run off without Ygritte. That is really the onnly problem with putting a book on screen is the inability to see what a character is actually going through in their minds. 

My wife, having only seen the show, got the impression that they were in love, and how could a man who loved a woman run off without her. Having read the book though, you see that the entire time he and Ygritte were together he was intensely conflicted about it, being a man who took an oath never to take a wife or have any children. 

Jon Snow really just saw that as the way out that he had been looing for the entire time he was with the wildlings. Not that he didn't love the girl, because it seemed he did. But Jon Snow was more like his father than any of the other Starks and his sense of honor was what ruled him.

Blue in Yarmouth

June 3rd, 2013 at 10:46 AM ^

In the book Rob's wife didn't attend the wedding because Catelyn councilled Rob that to bring her would be throwing his betrayal in the Face of Frey, so he left her back at camp where she still lives on if memory serves...I am almost done the fifth book and so much has mappened since this wedding that it is hard to keep everything straight. But I do remember at least that Rob's wife didn't attend the wedding. 

aiglick

June 2nd, 2013 at 9:54 PM ^

Now I remember there is a bigger scum ball than Joffrey. His name is Walder Frey. Killing guests of your home is one of the worst crimes you can commit.

cozy200

June 2nd, 2013 at 9:54 PM ^

If you just want to shock people in a TV series watch fear factor. Spend that much time building characters to watch it all burn? Why?

cozy200

June 2nd, 2013 at 10:00 PM ^

Main characters who you identify with need left alone. That is how a fan base is created no? What is to leave me vested now? The hope that i couldn't possibly stop after investing all this time? Im all done with this show. I was a huge fan. The plots just feel cheap. There is literally zero payoff. Its "different" for the sake of being "different". I can only stand watching people wander the country side so long.

pinkfloyd2000

June 2nd, 2013 at 10:04 PM ^

There are SO MANY OTHER "main characters" left, though. Surely, you can "identify" with someone else, no?

I like Martin's killing off of main characters now and then because it keeps the reader (and the viewer) on his or her toes. No one is safe here.

In any event, Martin himself said that the "Red Wedding" was the most difficult thing he ever had to write. He kept putting it off because it upset him so much, but he felt that it was absolutely essential to set up what happens next. In other words, he wouldn't have done it had he not felt that he HAD to do it.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

June 2nd, 2013 at 10:12 PM ^

Plus, in Robb's case, something that doesn't translate over to the show is that he has no POV chapters and therefore isn't truly a primary character.  Hard to show that on TV, except by cutting out all the scenes for which Catelyn isn't present (such as Robb's little dialogue with Jaime while Jaime is a prisoner, which never happens in the books.)

cozy200

June 2nd, 2013 at 10:12 PM ^

Books v TV is the issue here. Books take a while, you read, reread, wait for a while for the next and it all continues. TV is a whole different ball game. No i don't feel more intelligent for watching something different. In fact, i feel cheated. If its all about the dragons, cool. Not what tripped my trigger. This whole "anti hero" theme is great for some. Not for me.

pinkfloyd2000

June 2nd, 2013 at 10:18 PM ^

...to completely divulge from the source material here, and keep these characters alive, would you?

First of all...like I said, it sets stuff up for down the road. Secondly, HBO would have quite a few cancelled subscriptions if they altered the events of the Red Wedding that significantly.

This TV series isn't going to be done next year. Or the year after that. Or the year after that. You get my point.

a2_electricboogaloo

June 2nd, 2013 at 10:28 PM ^

I haven't read the books, so I'm not sure how it goes.  However, from what I've seen so far, the series isn't about the good guys winning or losing.  There aren't really any good guys and bad guys in the shows.  It's not black and white, just various hues of grey.  There are some people and families who are better than others, but even the Lannisters have Tyrion.  But no matter what only one group can win.  So it's either the Starks, the Lannisters, Daenerys or Stannis the mannis Baratheon.  They can't all win.  And they can't all survive.

TheLastHarbaugh

June 3rd, 2013 at 12:09 AM ^

If you think that life, let alone anything that George R.R. Martin writes, is about good versus evil, then you should just stop right now.

A Song of Ice and Fire (aka Game of Thrones) is so far beyond your petty notions of good versus evil.

Like life, there are no "good guys" and there are no "bad guys" there only "is," and that "is,"  my friend, is a bundle of motivations, justifications, passions, and a whole lot of random chance.

If Robb Stark were such a good guy he would not have broken his solemn vow to an ally in the midst of battle.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

June 3rd, 2013 at 12:14 AM ^

I don't think that makes Robb a bad person.  It makes him a tragic hero in the classical Greek sense.  Which is basically the story of the Stark family.  In classic Greek tragedies, the hero has his tragic flaw that brings about his downfall, and often this tragic flaw is an overabundance of a good trait.  Ned's was his honor and Catelyn's was her motherly protectiveness.

It's not like Robb went "ha ha fuck you Walder Frey, now that I got what I want from you, you can take your deal and stick it."

TheLastHarbaugh

June 3rd, 2013 at 12:29 AM ^

It makes him tragic, but that has nothing to say of whether he was good or not.

He made a vow to Walder Frey and he broke that vow. He chose love over honor and duty. It makes him human, but it also makes him a scum bag in that one instance.

Had he thought of his family, his army, his countrymen and his mission, first and foremost, then none of this would have happened. Instead, he thought with his heart, but more likely (as Lord Walder pointed out) his cock, instead of his head. Had he thought with his head then none of this would have happened.

Edit: Ned certainly was a tragic hero as well, and we could argue as to what was his downfall. His undying sense of loyalty and honor definitely played a part, but he had several opportunities to save himself, and didn't. Those opportunities had nothing to do with honor or loyalty. He could have taken his family and left the city with Renly. He also didn't need to tell Cersei he knew of her affair with Jamie.

Someone with an undying devotion and an absolute strict adherence to honor and what is right (Stannis Baratheon) would have given a traitor such as herself no such warning before cutting her head off, but Ned did, and that was one of the many things that lead his his downfall. To simply say it was the fact that he was an extremely honorable man, is simplistic.

Double Edit: Also, don't forget that Ned betrayed his sense of honor in the end by lying to the entire kingdom (and for purely selfish reason too).

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

June 3rd, 2013 at 10:08 AM ^

Well, you missed the reason Ned blabbed to Cersei then.  I haven't followed the show especially closely, so maybe they didn't show it.  It's possible, because the clue is that Robert is willing to assassinate Daenerys, who in the book is 13 at the time.  Ned is horrified that Robert would order the murder of a child.  So after that incident he knows what will happen when Robert learns his children aren't his.  He'll have the heads of Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella in an instant.  Ned doesn't want that to happen, so he tells Cersei to take them and run.

Which makes his lie about treason in front of the kingdom perfectly consistent.  He spilled the beans to Cersei to save the lives of her children, and he lied to save the lives of his own.  (Not so he could live and take the black.  Because the Lannisters would've killed Sansa otherwise, or at least, so he was led to believe.)  In all three instances he put the life of a child above his own duty to the kingdom and the kingdom's laws.  Sometimes you have to make a choice between two of your moral imperatives.  He made the consistent choice each time.  I don't see where he betrayed himself.

ijohnb

June 4th, 2013 at 9:51 AM ^

vow to Frey did not make Robb a "good person" or a "bad person," it simply defined him as a person unfit to rule.  Robb's death was all but a given.  There was no other way it could have ended.  In the words of Ned Stark, Robb "grew up with soldiers," he learned how to die a long time ago. 

However, the image that I will not able to shake for a long time is Catelyn, staring blankly and lifeless after killing Frey's wife,(basically a child), the horrific last act of a very noble person.  Michelle Fairly should be at the Emmy's this year at the very least, if she does not win best supporting actress in a landslide.  It may be a long time before you see something that organically tragic again on screen.

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

June 4th, 2013 at 12:20 PM ^

I would disagree, personally, that breaking the vow made him unfit to rule.  Ned broke a vow in a similar way and was still portrayed as one of the more truly upright and just rulers in the realm.  And Robb was always portrayed throughout the books as a person who was very capable beyond his years, well-prepared for his responsibilities, and easy for people to want to follow.  His father's son in so many ways.  The reason it's such a tragedy is because he was so fit for his crown.

ijohnb

June 4th, 2013 at 12:52 PM ^

He is fit for what we wish the crown would or could be, perhaps what Danaerys seeks to bring to it,  but he did not have the chops to take the throne from the Lannisters.  He was unable to make it his singular purpose, and he was never able to clarify exactly what he wanted and why.  He wanted to unseat Joffrey Lannister, but only for revenge, not to bring honor to the throne, not to even rule himself, he said it himself.  There actually in lies the problem.  He never sought power for its own sake, ruling never became an intrinsic goal.  If it was he would have kept his vow to Frey. 

MaizeAndBlueWahoo

June 4th, 2013 at 1:45 PM ^

That sounds fair.  It sounds like what you're saying is "not Machiavellian enough" which is clearly true of most of the Starks.  He could rule very well if he could get there, but he doesn't have what it takes to play the game to win.

Mstevens24

June 4th, 2013 at 8:27 AM ^

If you think watching a T.V show teaches you about life, then you need to reevaluate your thought process.
 
Some people watch T.V shows to get away from reality, and a fantasy show such as this one is one of those such shows.
 
For you people to downvote and criticize people for having a differing opinion on what they like on a T.V show is for a lack of a better word retarded.
 
I personally like to watch when the good guys win and the bad guys lose. Sure people need to die along the way, but not everyone.
 
If that's what you like in a T.V show good for you, but don't criticize others because they don't have the same tastes in a T.V show that you do. If I wanted to watch realism, I would watch and or read some sort of HIstorical document/show. Which I often do. 
 
Also as much as you sit there and say that this is a "realistic show". I will remind you this is a fantasy show with a story that is made up in a mans mind who intentionally does things to invoke a response. 

ijohnb

June 4th, 2013 at 10:05 AM ^

the good guys are losing.   Dany is conquering entire cities with winks, white walkers can be killed, and Jon Snow is free, at least for the moments.  Those are the broad strokes.  Robb Stark was just a detail, really.  It is tragic that he met that fate, but the bigger fish have not begun to fry.