OT - Frazier (Tigers)

Submitted by umchicago on August 3rd, 2010 at 4:04 PM

OK - I started watching the Chisox-Tigers game in the 7th inning.  Granted the game is over.  But I saw enough of Frazier in the 7th inning to immediately send him to the minors and call up another batter before game 2.

I saw him "dog it" on 2 defensive plays in the bottom of the 7th - 1)a looping liner that bounced about 3 steps in front of him.  he barely moved and 2) a gapper that he took a bad angle and the ball went over his head.  he then loafed to retrieve the ball.  I mean, this guy is playing in his 4th big league game.  it's one thing if he hit like manny ramirez, but he ain't no manny.  and he's a rookie!!

jackson muffed a ball earlier but hustled and got a force out.  it's one thing to lose (and lose big) but at least hustle your ass, especially if you're a rookie.  make a point and send him down before game 2.

(and ya, i know the tigers are done, but it's the principle of the thing).

Comments

kevin holt

August 3rd, 2010 at 4:10 PM ^

where we were in contention to win it all in the first half, then choked and began to fall to one of the worst teams in the league in the second half.

And I never woke up.

umchicago

August 3rd, 2010 at 4:20 PM ^

I wouldn't call this a choke (last year maybe).  I think I heard the tigers have 9 rookies now on the roster and it isn't Sept 1 yet.  Det probably would have been buyers at the deadline but for 3 regulars going down with injury within a week.

A couple solid FA pickups in the offseason and the Tigers will contend again next year.

Porcello.  wft? wake up man!

steelymax

August 3rd, 2010 at 5:05 PM ^

the tigers have 9 rookies now on the roster

That's fine, but it doesn't explain how a full, healthy, and well-rested Tigers team got swept in four straight games to the lowly Indians coming out of the All-Star break. Can't blame the rookies for that one.

That's called a choke.

TheLastHarbaugh

August 3rd, 2010 at 5:23 PM ^

I guess when you have the lineup that the Tigers have presently, you're down 12-1 in the 7th, and you know you're playing another game later that day, it's fair to assume that the little extra pep you might have to reach some of those grounders isn't going to be there.

Regardless, I'm not going to criticize a kid who shouldn't be in the majors, and who wouldn't be in the majors if it weren't for circumstances beyond anyone's control.

EDIT: I'm all for the FIGHT, WIN, DIE, mentality, but in a 162 game season, sometimes you have to cut your loses and live to fight another day.

TheLastHarbaugh

August 3rd, 2010 at 5:41 PM ^

You're simply assuming that it was a lack of effort.

Perhaps he is just not a very good ballplayer who would not be in the majors were it not for the rash of injuries we suffered.

Or

Perhaps it can be difficult for a rookie to keep focus late in a double digit blowout when you have another game later in the afternoon.

TheLastHarbaugh

August 3rd, 2010 at 6:05 PM ^

I figured a ridiculous answer was the only way to respond to a ridiculous question.

Perhaps there aren't many negative articles written about Jim Leyland because he is a good manager, and a good guy. This team has morphed from a contender to Miguel and the also rans, and IMO there isn't a manager, living, or dead that could salvage this season, if the roster remains the same.

If Jim Leyland is a problem, then he is the least of the Tiger's problems.

steelymax

August 3rd, 2010 at 6:25 PM ^

First, that Leyland is "a good guy" shouldn't factor into the discussion about his team's performance.

Second, injuries have hit teams like Boston and Minnesota, as well. Yet, they're still competetive. So there are at least two managers that can be successful despite numerous injuries to key players. In fact, Minnesota lost their closer and an MVP candidate, among others.

Third, I'm not expecting a manager to win the World Sries, but how about a series against Cleveland? And with a healthy roster, no less!

TheLastHarbaugh

August 3rd, 2010 at 6:40 PM ^

First, that Leyland is "a good guy" shouldn't factor into the discussion about his team's performance.

Never implied it did, but it might have something to do with the fact that there aren't many negative MSM articles written about him.

Second, injuries have hit teams like Boston and Minnesota, as well. Yet, they're still competetive. So there are at least two managers that can be successful despite numerous injuries to key players. In fact, Minnesota lost their closer and an MVP candidate, among others.

Let's replace half of both of those team's lineups with rookies, and decimate their pitching staffs and see what happens. Also, it's not like Boston is 6.5 games out of the wild card and their division or anything.

Third, I'm not expecting a manager to win the World Sries, but how about a series against Cleveland? And with a healthy roster, no less!

Sometimes teams lose games. For you to call getting swept by the Indians in the middle of the season a choke job (as you did earlier in the thread) is, IMO, a very loose definition of choke.

Even very good baseball teams typically still lose around 70 games. There's no reason to get all RABBLE RIDE over a sweep to the Indians in the middle of the season. 

This season is for all intents and purposes, over. Too many costly injuries, and a group of starting pitchers that have been wildly inconsistent. Better luck next year.

steelymax

August 3rd, 2010 at 9:02 PM ^

Let's replace half of both of those team's lineups with rookies, and decimate their pitching staffs and see what happens.

How about this: let's go back to the Tigers' opening day roster but  take Verlander, Valverde and Cabrera off the team. Wouldn't expect the Tigers to do much, right? Well, that's essentially the Twins right now and they're at the top of the division.

a very loose definition of choke.

Ok, I'll give you some better definitions of "choke". How about losing the division on the last day of the season not once, but TWICE (2006, 2009)? Having the so-called "best lineup in baseball" and second highest payroll and coming in LAST PLACE (2008). That better?

TheLastHarbaugh

August 3rd, 2010 at 9:46 PM ^

I was unaware that Morneau, Mauer and Delmon Young (IMO the Twins 3 best players this year) were all injured and/or not playing.

Morneau has missed a few games, and Mauer is just getting back from sitting out a whole 2 games.

Also, the loss of Nathan was a huge blow, but it happened at a good time, early in the season, so the Twins knew that they would be without him for the year and were then able to plan for that loss. It's not as if Jon Rauch has been bad, and now they've added Matt Capps which further solidifies their bullpen.

Had Morneau and/or Mauer been lost for the season, you would have a point, but they were both healthy enough to play and put up numbers that got them voted onto the All Star Team.

As for your second point, yes, those are good examples of "choking." Getting swept by the Indians in July might suck, but I don't think you can in good conscience qualify it as choking.   

EDIT: Not to mention the fact that Mauer and Morneau cancel out Cabby and Miggy, then you factor in that Delmon Young, Jason Kubel, Michael Cuddyer, Denard Span, Jim Thome and Orlando Hudson make for a far greater supporting cast than JD, AJax, Boesch, Guillen, Santiago and Inge.

Then when you factor in that the Twins pitching staff is superior to the Tigers, you discover that, shockingly*, the Twins are simply a better baseball team than the Tigers.

*Note this is not shocking in any way.

steelymax

August 4th, 2010 at 11:14 AM ^

Morneau, Mauer and Delmon Young (IMO the Twins 3 best players this year) were all injured and/or not playing.

Morneau has been out with a concussion for almost a month.

And funny you should mention Delmon Young, a #1 overall draft pick who was considered a disappointment & malcontent... until he ends up with the Twins. Somehow they straightened him out.  Gardenhire gets the most out his players. No kidding their team plays better than Detroit. You proved my point.

umchicago

August 3rd, 2010 at 6:04 PM ^

i actually feel for him a bit.  the team was contending with verlander and 4 stiffs in the rotation.  don't know what happened to porcello.  the team was winning early in the year with great offense (maggs, miggs and boesch) and a great bullpen.  but maggs is gone, boesch is slumping like most knew would come, zumaya is done and valverde is coming down to earth.  the pen has lost several games since the break; games that they shut down in the 1st half.

i didn't have a real problem with frazier batting 3rd.  he's a righty, boesch is slumping and raburn has decided to stink it up this year too.

umchicago

August 3rd, 2010 at 5:46 PM ^

i can tell the difference between lack of skill and effort.  for instance, boesch doesn't seem that comfortable out there in RF, but he gives effort.  and i expect his game to improve out there.  manny R = lack of effort.  frazier's game could improve too, but not on my team this year, if i were mgr.

steelymax

August 3rd, 2010 at 5:38 PM ^

Not to mention Frazier wouldn't have this opportunity if it weren't for injuries. This is his chance to make an impression.

Imagine if Boesch played similarly when Carlos went down. He wouldn't have remained on the roster.

steelymax

August 3rd, 2010 at 6:03 PM ^

Yes, I know. I'm agreeing with you.

My only adendum to your point is Frazier's play is lousy because:

A) The game was out of reach and Leyland tolerates his lack of hustle

or

B) He's not a very good player in the first place... in which case he shouldn't be batting 3rd

Either way, Leyland is at least part of the problem, here.

umchicago

August 3rd, 2010 at 6:10 PM ^

offense and defense are different.  manny bats 3rd or 4th.  i would wager that most bad fielders bat 3rd or 4th, otherwise they wouldn't be playing.  the whole lack of hustle by a rookie just got under my skin.

and if there is a mgr that will set a guy straight, it's leyland.  who knows, he may have tore him a new one in the office between games.

steelymax

August 3rd, 2010 at 5:01 PM ^

Agreed on Frazier.

And to make things worse, Leyland had this kid batting 3rd, in front of Cabrera. I guess Jim missed having the Ordonez Double Play Machine clearing the bases for the league's best hitter.

For the record, Frazier grounded out into a DP in the first inning. Cabrera subsequently lead off the 2nd inning and the 4th. Because, you know, that's how Leyland likes it.

BigBlue02

August 4th, 2010 at 2:14 AM ^

Did Jim Leyland sleep with your mom? Jesus, by all means, he isn't that bad of a manager. He has had to regularly start what amounts to a AAA team for half the year. Regulars that wouldn't make most rosters in the league:

Gerald Laird (I kid, I kid....he would be a backup catcher somewhere)

Worth

Kelly

Rhymes

Avila

Frazier

If Leyland is forced to start all of them at once (yes, I know Laird and Avila wouldn't start at the same time, but humor me), we would have 2/3 of our lineup that shouldn't even be in the majors. Leyland isn't the problem.

steelymax

August 4th, 2010 at 11:03 AM ^

He has had to regularly start what amounts to a AAA team for half the year

What year are we talking about, this year? It's been two weeks since Maggs and Guillen have been out. And right before that, they lost four straight to Cleveland with everyone healthy.

Again, I'm not arguing that Leyland is the only problem with this team. I never did. I'm merely explaining that he's not as good as everyone (including the MSM) seems to believe.

ituralde

August 3rd, 2010 at 5:33 PM ^

I feel bad for tigers pitching, that 3rd inning would have been a lot different with people that weren't dead in the infield positions. 

ckersh74

August 3rd, 2010 at 6:19 PM ^

Frazier isn't exactly a kid. He turns 28 next week and this is his first call-up. He's rapidly approaching Mike Hessman territory (AAA beast, but in the majors he makes Gump Laird look like Tony Gwynn).

Also, this season Leyland has some funny infatuation with putting people like Ryan Raburn and Don Kelly into the #3 slot right in front of Cabrera. I'd hazard a guess that Frazier in the #3 slot is at worst a wash compared with these two.

steelymax

August 3rd, 2010 at 6:32 PM ^

Frazier in the #3 slot is at worst a wash

That doesn't excuse it.

Seriously, when you're down to only one dangerous hitter, why not bat him third to give him as many at-bats as possible? Pujols bats third and leads off an inning 14% of his at-bats. Cabbie leads off a whopping +25% (twice today, in fact).

The roster is admittedly decimated, but Leyland stubbornly keeps Cabrera at the 4 spot. At least try moving him up one spot, if only temporarily and see what happens.

MH20

August 3rd, 2010 at 6:24 PM ^

At least Old Man Leyland hasn't batted Laird in the 3-hole this season.

He did, however, bat him 2nd once.  I pooped my pants.

Edit: This was supposed to be a reply to ckersh.  The 'reply' button is dying a slow death.

ckersh74

August 3rd, 2010 at 6:25 PM ^

Yeah, I just about fell out of my chair when I saw that. That was in Atlanta, and Leyland's logic was "well, he's a good bunter". Good. Find a pitcher that can bunt and hit him 2nd. You'll just about get the same result.

Yinka Double Dare

August 3rd, 2010 at 6:55 PM ^

Juan Pierre hit a home run.  Everything that happened after that didn't actually matter, because giving up a home run to Juan Pierre by rule results in an automatic loss, sort of like the slaughter rule in Little League.

Yinka Double Dare

August 3rd, 2010 at 7:38 PM ^

Worse yet, Jason Tyner.  He had one career home run.  Jake Westbrook probably should have been banished from baseball for giving it up -- if I remember correctly, Tyner hadn't hit a home run since at least back to high school before that.