OT-Do you let your kids win?
My Father was pretty much Robert Duvall in "The Great Santini" (incredible movie those that have not seen a DVD must). As a very young child he would let me get close and encourage me on but he never gave me the win. He also let me know how sweet victory tasted. From a game of H-O-R-S-E to Monopoly there was no mercy.
When the extended family came together we would have 15-20 people play card games (31) for nickle/dime/quarter stakes and although the money made it fun it was the verbal abuse and bragging rights that made the game cut throat. My Grandfather had no problem crushing my croquet ball into the yard three houses away before my own age had even hit double digits.
I will never forget my Freshman year of High School playing make-it-take-it hoops in the driveway with the old man. I was up 14-13 (game was 15 had to win by 2) and had the ball. 97 degrees outside I had finally learned to make the old bastard chase me around the perimeter until he was out of gas. My body was now finally big enough (he was 6'6" 250 and I was 6'3" 225) to offer some resistance to the inside pounding he would deliver. So of course I had to do some talking to make up for a lifetime of losing and hearing about it. So I had been killing him from the top of the arc and as he came up just a shade too close I blew past him. Having a step I set up for the finger roll lay up when I felt two hands on my hips push me forward and I slammed into the metal garage door with a great crash and was almost disembowled by the garage door handle. As I lay on the ground I just looked up at the old man and he stared back and said, "get up you got the foul". The next play I sank the jumper from the top of the key and as I walked off neither of us said a word until we got to the house and the old man said, "good game son". It was the first of many victories in what became of me and my old man's personal ten year war until he just got too old to compete physichally.
So of course I have married a family and marital theraphist and God further cursed me with three girls. Of course I love the princesses however from the oldest to the youngest I have never let any of them win. My wife, although competitive is by no means cut throat. So my family has evolved to where if anyone other then myself wins they consider it a victory. Before a game is played I have made as part of the rules that there will be no tears of exasperation and we play to win the game. After victory there is some verbal mention of the sweet taste as I will sing "Hail To The Victor Daddy". I have yet to lose in my favorite game Monopoly to my family although that day will surely one day come.
So I ask if you let your children win and does your significant other object if you do not?
Jesus, where did your dad go to school, Michigan State?
that's the way you want it. once you get to 12+ yrs, nothing should be given to you. Your dad made you earn it, and I'm sure it wouldn't have meant nearly as much if he did let you have that.
Just sayin'.
very much in the great Santini mold. I make my daughter clean her room, brush her teeth and do her chores...and I let her best me when I think she needs it.
This is an individual call - but I don't see my dad's life and parenting as a complete or even partial model for my daughter or myself. That said it's made me the dad I am.
I loved my dad, but I don't celebrate his take no prisoners attitude. There is a time for it, but not all the time, and mostly never with my daughter. She's an innocent girl who still barely believes in fairies. When we spend time together there is often no winner. I do find myself pushing her more and more in sports but even there it's just not the same as with my dad.
My wife only met my father in his last years and never got the full picture. I've never seen the necessity to flush it out with her.
Your approach is the approach I should take some day, but probably won't take as I laid out below. This site is starting to worry me a little though, it appears karma catches up with a ton of football fans on this site in a (really not at all) bad sort of way by blessing them with more daughters than sons. I feel almost all of us dream of teaching or sons the ways of sports, especially football, and it seems more are getting daughters. I'm sure, however, any one of you with more daughters feels absolutely no remorse.
One thing that is very different between how you parent girls and boys is shown in your post though. I don't mean to generalize sexes here, but I feel as a whole you can dominate boys when they are younger and they'll stick with, if only because there is so much more outside pressure for them to. However, I feel girls need a little more nurturing in this regard, and your method is probably better. And yes, I realize I just complete generalized sexes as I claimed I didn't mean to, but I feel there is a bit of truth behind it. In the end though, each case needs to be individually approached, and hopefully, for people like me some day, successfully followed through by the parent
I have both a boy and a girl, both of whom play sports. My daughter is just starting out (age 7) and I wish parents would treat the girls like they treat the boys. We had a soccer coach who would call out a ref who stopped a game if a girl player fell down. He would say that you would never stop a boys' game for the same reason, why stop a girls' game? I agree. On our girls softball team, though, the parents are very hesitant to encourage competition. They don't want winning, losing or scoring. But I think it's ok to experience losing, as long as there's no shame in it. In fact, I think it's a great lesson to learn for both boys and girls. But I think parents are afraid for their girls, maybe thinking they're not tough enough. My husband and I treat our daughter in the same way we treat our son. Same rules, no special treatment.
I think there are limits to how tough a parent should be on his or her kid, boy or girl. I see kids - 9 and 10 year-olds - who never smile or laugh during their games and I know their fathers (and sometimes mothers) are too tough on them. Sports are supposed to be fun. They're not a job. Yeah, you want to win and compete. But kids who don't smile sort of scare me, like they're going to turn into that lacrosse player at Virginia and explode some day.
I totally agree, losing is good..if the other team is respectful and shows good sportsmanship. I was talking to a neighbor earlier in the spring. They had obviously been at a peewee game. I asked if their son won his game. He said they didn't keep score...that the game was meant for fun and they didn't want anyone to lose... I wanted to ask, well then what is the point of playing if no one loses. Losing is good for you, it builds character. I mean no one likes to lose, and by losing..your gonna do your best not to let it happen again the next time. If no one loses, where does the competitve spirit get nurtured....i was alittle befuddled by this new age "No one loses" take on sports.
Losing is also really important so that they can learn how to lose. I know one kid who, when he loses, blames it on everything but his own performance. He just can't admit that maybe someone was better than him that day. He ran in a track event and came in third and claimed that #1 and #2 cheated by jumping the gun. He just couldn't believe that someone was faster than him. I have to think that this kid is going to grow up and be a really angry, bitter man.
You knew Charlie Weis as a kid?
You think Charlie Weis came in #3 in a track race? Apparently optimism knows no bounds.
He never said there were more than 3 people in the race...
Charlie Weis ran track as a kid?!?!?!
Must have been before this...
Or just this...
edit: MGoDC beat me to the punch... stupid adding images
The "no one is a loser" attitude is dangerous. It gives the impression that effort is more important than outcome, which is a slippery slope for things outside of sports.
One of my many jobs has been working in the Provost's office of a small, private liberal arts college. It was the final landing place for grade disputes, and I constantly heard, from aggrieved students and parents, the mantra that "effort should count."
"I shouldn't have failed my mid-term. I studied very hard."
"You put down the wrong answers."
"But I tried really hard!"
It was an epidemic. Students wanted partial credit for effort, no matter the outcome. The ones that really floored me were two sets of parents (and if mommy and daddy are still trying to intervene when you're 20, that's the first sign of a problem) who wanted their son and daughter, respectively, to be given Ds for effort in classes they had failed twice. The boy had failed Calc II twice. He wanted to be an engineer. She had failed Biol. I, and she was going pre-med! We (the mean professors and administration) were keeping them from their dreams, and they were ready to sue.
It made me sick to my stomach. It's not just a few students, and it's not just there. I have a lot of friends in academia, and they see it across the board at all types of institutions.
no matter how you slice it.
Kids need to learn to win, kids need to learn to lose and they need to learn that their effort can materially impact that outcome, though it will not alsways guarantee it.
I let my 5 year old son win sometimes, when he is learning something new or when he is just in a mood where he needs a smile, however, I mix it up sometimes and help him to learn that losing isn't the end of the world. You get up and you try again.
For me, as with most things, it is about balance and whether or not he wins is highly situational.
My dad is 6'8", played hoop for UM in the 1960s (rode the pine behind Bill Buntin), and had no problem crushing me like a bug in one on one. He'd dunk on me, pin my shots to the backboard, etc. When I finally beat him (thanks to the wonder of the 3 point line), the victory was as sweet as they come.
For me, that worked. For my brother, my dad needed to let him win from time to time. For my 9 year old, if he loses every game he loses interest. I can't just let him get close, I need to let him win from time to time so as to keep him engaged in the game. It kills me, but it makes a real difference. I do think it's a case-by-case determination.
I love how he calls everyone "sports fan."
"Whaddaya say there, sports fan!"
Such a great flick.
My dad never let me win, although he would use his left hand in ping-pong so I wouldn't lose 21-4....and when he pitched to me he wouldn't blow it past because it was for my practice... but he had to try as hard as he could in just about everything else when I wanted to play.
My dad never let me win, either. The first time I beat him in one-on-one, I was 15, on the high school basketball team, and it was a dogfight to win the game. For me, it was the way to go. I will do the same when I had a son. Simply, it taught this lesson: Anything of value is earned, not given. And don't expect anyone to give you anything. Life owes you nothing. You must earn it, and take what is yours.
I'm not going to "let" my nephew win. He's 5. I'll let him get me to H-O-R-S and then I'll go back to about 17 feet and start throwing the ball in the hole (and yes, we're playing with about a 5 foot high rim. I'm not that damn cruel).
But the answer some day will surely be "No." Like you, I took the beating as a kid, from my older brother (4 years) and from my dad. My brother was actually worse than my dad, who would let me stay close until he decided to blow me out of the water, playing my brother was simply a massacre.
From an actual sporting standpoint though, I really think it helped me. I was taller and built bigger as a kid, and pretty easily dominated most kids my own age. If I wouldn't have been playing my brother, who was bigger and taller than me, I would have struggled in basketball when my body decided it had enough of growing taller once I reached 6 foot.
So, while my brother and I would play on a 7-8 foot hoop, and a "No goaltending" rule, which actually allowed goaltending, was implemented, and I got beat 50-10, I took pride in getting tackled and beat down and dismantled around the hoop, and at least being able to finish 10 times.
Also, it put me in my place. Anymore, with school yard fights not being as much the norm, or spanking (not saying it's right or wrong, just doesn't happen from parents as much anymore), you need these types of victories to still exude dominance. Like it or not, this understanding of who is in power is getting more difficult to portray these days, and this is a nice, sometimes not so subtle way of reinforcing that you can still "own them" if you really want.
So, yeah, when I become a dad, my kid is going to get dominated for a long time, and I will love it, and hopefully some day they'll grow and learn to play the game(s) well enough to someday be better than me. Then I can be proud of them for sticking with it and getting better.
But you raise a good point. I have two children now. I played golf with my son for the first time yesterday, (he's 10). Most of the holes, I let him take as many shots as he needed, (we were on a local par-3 course). When he really struggled, we'd make it more like a scramble. The point right now, is to teach him the game.
But, I wasn't about to slack off in order to "let him win". That's nonsense. What is he going to learn, if he expects to win every time he plays? That's not how real life works.
I have a much bigger problem, though, with what I see happening in schools. These kids get awards for wiping their noses. Everyone is a told they are a "winner". They all get prizes. There is rarely a First Place trophy, etc.
What a crock. How are you supposed to know how awesome it feels to reach the top of the game - on your own, against fierce competition - unless you've also tasted defeat?
I helped coach a U10 boys soccer team at a tournament a couple weeks ago. Every kid got a crappy black plastic thing, but for finishing first or second your team got one little "cup", or basically a trophe\y.
Our team finished second. Afterwards, the coaches handed out the "participation trophies." This was soon followed by comments from 10 year old kids about how cheap they were. If a 10 year old knows your crappy participation trophy is already junk, then why not make it so they actually earned something for finishing second. In the end, the team wins a trophy, but being a coach without a kid on the team, what am I supposed to do with that? I don't want it, heck, it was the kids that earned it. But now they have nothing to show for finishing second in a soccer tournament, but I guess at least they participated, right?
My point is, when I was 10 I knew if we won or lost. If I lost I wouldn't want something that rewarded me for playing. Neither did these kids. Back when I played soccer at 10, they gave away a badge from the tournament to show that you played in it, if you won, every kid got a trophy. Now soccer clubs are spending more money giving kids something that they know isn't that cool, rather than giving them something to be proud of for actually winning (or at least winning enough to finish second).
You make a good point - even when the parents aren't keeping score, the kids sure are. Losing almost feels worse when everyone tells you how wonderful you are and you don't get to deal with your failure for a little bit and instead have to feel that you've been undeservedly rewarded. On top of that, if your kid figures out you're letting them win, how will they ever be able to trust that they've beaten you fair and square? That's a moment of accomplishment it would seem cruel to take away.
Schools and some youth sports leagues have decided that the "important thing is trying". In many respects, I agree. But, its gone way too far.
Case in point: my son's pine wood derby races in Cub Scouts. Everyone gets a "participation trophy", and there are trophies (though more elaborate) for placing in each den and then again for the overall. The first two years, my son insisted on doing everything himself, despite my wanting to help him build the cars. Naturally, he got smoked by the other kids' cars. He stomped around and threw a fit, but I refused let him continue his diatribes. He couldn't have cared less about his "participation" trophies.
This year, he finally accepted my help. His car looked great, it was really fast, and he placed well in his pack. He learned a lot more: first, that asking for help is okay; second, that learning from others makes him better; and third, that winning is an achievement earned, not given. His trophy for placing third suddenly meant something to him, and he was proud of himself.
I think the problem is assuming that participating is trying. Trying (hard) *is* the important thing in my mind--even if you lose, giving hell to a much better team is something to be proud of, much more so than beating up on somebody who's not nearly as good. But participation is not necessarily trying and I think it's important to acknowledge the difference.
Secondly, there's nothing wrong with being proud of your effort and going home empty-handed and I think that's an important lesson, too; for most ages (very young may be a little different), trophies should generally be reserved for winning.
...they just shouldn't let fathers build soap box derby cars for their kids, and have the kids do it themselves.
No way. My kids will win when they deserve to win.
But I agree. It's the mom's job to give the kid self-esteem. It's the father's job to teach 'em to hate losing
How's the weather in 1952?
I saw a TV show a few years ago, may have been one of the Law & Order franchises. In the episode, a kid in his late teens gets into trouble with the law, and his father is a big shot politician in NYC. The father proceeds to tell the kid what a screw up he is. The kid starts crying and looking for a shoulder. The dad won't have any of it. He tells the kid, "You're looking for sympathy? That's your mother's job. Me, I'm here to kick your ass."
Because the amount of mothers who want to see a child fail and be upset, and are willing to reject a jump shot back in her son's face is soooooo much greater then men in 2010. Please. YOU I don't expect to be on a politically correct horse.
Love to hear what mommie dearest you grew up with that was kicking your ass back and forth, rather than taking you out for ice cream after you lost the game. There's a reason every post in this thread is talking about how their dad's treated them.
FWIW I grew up with "mommie dearest" kicking my ass back and forth, it just wasn't sports related. I never got to ski with her (which would in all likelihood would've been even more competitive than my dad and dirtbiking since I've been skiing since I could walk) because she shattered her ankle competing in high school, thus losing the scholarship to her dream school and the ability to ski.
my dad used to always say that the day I beat him in golf would be one of the happiest days of his life. He had these golf shoes that I really loved and bothered him about giving them to me all the time and he said he never would. I finally beat him a few years ago and out of nowhere he gave me the shoes and said "great game". I'll never forget it and because of that I will also never let my kids win.
for my kids I just wanted to make sure they were getting some sort of exercise so I let them win or pitched to them so they could get hits and run around. As they're getting older, I don't let them win as much and I play a lot more competitive but again it's more about exercise and teaching them about the game. I'm a pretty decent tennis player and I could win every point against my kids and win 6-0, 6-0, but nobody gets anything out of that. So I make sure to keep the ball in play for them to hit so they can practice their strokes and get exercise as well.
I know I'm a better tennis player than my kids so there's really no need for me to beat them to prove that to myself.
Every once in a while a father has to do what is right. i had the block all set up and let it go....
i gave you a glimpse of what was possible and surely you took it
is it time to pass it on????
hopefully you do it as well as i did
dad
I don't let my daughter win, she demands to win. One of the first rules she ever made playing chutes and ladders went something like this: "Ok Daddy, one of the rules of this game is; you lose."
Beating a child everytime in a game they have zero chance of winning is not my style, may work for some, but not for me.
I let my only child, an 8-year old girl, win at times, but not all the time. My folks (now with the Lord) never played games with us at all, so I guess I'm over compensating for the lost time with my folks.
By letting her win on occasion, I'm hoping to instill a bit of confidence in her that she can succeed at things that she otherwise wouldn't dream of trying.
A great line from the movie, "A Good Year" that resonates with me: "You'll come to see that a man learns nothing from winning. The act of losing, however, can elicit great wisdom. Not least of which is, uh... how much more enjoyable it is to win. It's inevitable to lose now and again. The trick is not to make a habit of it."
Great post. There is nothing I enjoy more than whooping my Dad's ass on the golf course.
and I really think it's all about the message that you are trying to send. If you feel the need to be tough on them, then so be it. I know all of us will parent differently, and that said I will never let them win! I was taught to earn my keep, and if you want it bad enough then you'll try that much harder. In life we know that nothing is ever given to us,and as much as it may pain us as parents we can't show them weakness(giving in). What we can do is teach them compassion and understanding in losing and how it relates to becoming a winner. Its all about the message. I think overall with the responses I read we all seem to understand what message we are trying to send to our perspective children as it relates to them. Good job guys. Go Blue!
Since it's his own sperm that "cursed" him with three girls. Gotta teach those dudes to swim faster, because the girl ones won't let them win!
Pack up the letter bomb and read the entire statement in context.
Brodie
Our fathers imprinted a parenting model on us. If we were happy as children with that model, we will probably follow it.
My own father was intellectual and not at all sports minded.
With my boys, now, I let them win at basketball to keep them interested. I am six foot two, 220 lbs, and they would never get a shot off if I played at even 50% of my rather limited ability. I look forward to the days when we can have truly competitive basketball games, and no, I won't let them win then.
Well first, I would really hope my kids would be able to beat me on their on merit by the time they're old enough to start getting competitive. I went from playing varsity field hockey in high school to running 5ks to avoiding my after work jog.
Second, dirtbiking is easily the most competitive thing my dad would NEVER let us beat him at. Didn't keep up? If it's a new trail you're lost in the woods until he comes back and tells you all the fun shit you missed. Crashed and didn't break any limbs? You're dragging your own bike back onto the trail, whether it's in dense shrubbery, sand or mud, and hotstarting it yourself. Won't start? Better figure out why because if it's something stupid like the gas or killswitch you should know better! But you bet your ass he took the best picture when I got the holeshot at my first race.
Also my sister once knocked out half of my dad's front tooth playing pond hockey. You can still see the crack where they glued it back together when it's sunny out.
I was lucky to have two parents who enjoyed competing with my brother and me. They didn't "let us win," and neither did my grandparents (card sharks!). They did sometimes change the rules though, so we could compete when we were very young.
My dad built an ice rink in the back yard most winters, and we had chicken wire goals. My dad would be one team, and me and my brother the other. We were probably 6 and 9 or 7 and 10. He got to play full out without letting us win, and it was still competitive when we were tiny.
My mom was more of a word and strategy game person, and we had different rules for different games. For example, she would kill everyone in Boggle, so before I was in my teens I got to double my score. She'd still win most of the time, and once I got to be 12/13 I started winning more often - BAM - back to single scoring so I had to keep getting better.
I like that strategy, and plan to use it with my kids.
My Dad always let me get so close to winning I could taste it, but he never let me win. I believe that is why I am so competitive. Even as a child I can rememeber playing horse H-O-R-S to H-O-R-S then him taking his ALWAYS game winner "glass" shot off the backboard and in for the win. If we threw baseball he always threw my pop flys just out of reach of my outstretched glove, even if I was diving (he had a knack for that). Anytime he pitched to me in the front yard it would always be belt-high and outside, because he knew from watching me play that was the only pitch I could not read wether it was a ball or strike. I believe this is what makes me so competitive. He forced me to constantly get better, always so close to victory but never quite there. If you played a game of anything with me today I am the most competitive person you will ever meet. Its just my nature. I hate losing, I love winning. If I lose, I strive to be better. I think that because my dad did this I am the person I am today. I am fairly good at any sport I play, and academically I am in the top 100 in my highschool class of 800. I'm not the best at everything I do, but you can be sure that i bust my ass at anythng and everything I do. I start 3rd base as a freshman in high school on the varsity team. I am the second best WR (stats wise) on the varsity football team and I have a 3.5 GPA. None of those are outstanding or amazing but I do believe I am good at what I do because my dad pushed me as a kid to constantly get better, no matter what we were doing.
My dad definately gave me my competitive streak. He would never let me win. To this day there are very few things I can honestly beat him at. The one thing I will always take away from him though was he shot me straight. He didn't believe in coddling just so I felt better about the other team crushing us. If I was terrible I was terrible and he was ready to show me how to fix it either in the backyard or by watching a game on tv and watching a pro at my position.
The one thing that would bring the wrath though was being to scared to give it my all. As an only child and no older siblings to "toughen" me up he was always there to play the part. When I first joined little league I volunteered to play catcher. I thought all the gear looked cool. So i'm sitting behind the plate and an older kid 10-11ish winds up and throws the fastest pitch I had ever seen as an 8 year old. I duck out of the way and hoped noone saw that. When we got home Dad told me to get by the garage door. He had apparently "borrowed" a bunch of balls from the coach and proceeded to howitzer these at me. Granted I'm sure they weren't all that fast but I learned that baseballs are as hard as they look and being scared is no reason not to give it your best.
I am 27 and have yet to even take a set of tennis from my dad (I'm guessing I'm around oh-for-five-hundred). I wouldn't have it any other way. The day I do, if it ever should come, would be more sad than anything.