OT-In defense of Joe D
It was meant to be. It was the right move. It was the only move. The stars had alligned perfectly. We were not going to have to let go of Trey. He was still going to be able to be our guy. And then David Stern read the name of some guy named Pope and anger, disbelief, and frustration all came together to produce such declarations as "I am never going to watch the Pistons again." These reactions were natural. Visions of Trey nailing a 3 to cement a win with the crowd going crazy as the Palace were strong visions in deed, strong enough to turn a pick that was questionable at best into a pick that made perfect sense. The problem is that the pick never really made sense. Professional sports is a business, investments are made. Brandon Knight was an investment. Perhaps he is not a point guard in the John Stockton sense, but he is quite a hike from two guard, and while Brandon Knight has certainly been up and down, frequently down, through his second year, I can't say that there is enough of a sample size at this point to simply cash in those chips and start from scratch at a position that Joe checked off his list of needs when he drafted Knight just two season ago. Reports of Knight being "terrible" and other such descriptions are overblown. Softomore slumps are not the exception but the norm in the NBA, Knights was a little more perceptible than most, but to label Knight as one of the primary problems with the Pistons roster is absurd. In fact, to the contrary, the Pistons roster is littered with players that have proven that they are servicable at the point. True, at the moment, both Calderon and Bynum are unsigned at this point (I believe), but there is no reason to believe that they won't resign if presented with offers. Trey Burke is a special talent, but the Pistons are trying to build something. I don't think a log jam at the point when other needs could easily be filled makes a whole lot of sense. And while the product on the court is far from optimal at this point, there are the peices to make this team into something formidable in the short term, and like it or not, a wing/two with the ability to create his own shot is the glaring defeciency in the Pistons roster at this point. Pope looks like he has this in spades, and if a talented two guard on the floor only means that I have to look at Rodney Stucky any less than I currently do it cannot be that bad of a thing. Nobody wanted to let go of Trey Burke yet, and the sudden possibility that we would not have to made a bad fit look like a perfect fit, and lead many of us to a conclusion that anything else but Burke was objectively the wrong decision. It may have been, only time will tell. However, let's see how this kid looks before we write off the Pistons for ever. There is the chance that the Pistons got the steal of the draft. His very presence will certainly not stir up the images of glory to us as Trey would have, and the Palace will not enjoy the month of (articifical) sell-outs like Trey Burke would have. But I am both a Pistons fan and a Michigan fan. I am mostly a Michigan fan. The Michigan fan in me hated the pick, but after considering the fact that the Pistons are not the extension of my favorite college team, it may just be that my maize colored glasses convincted me of something that was not in the cards from the get-go.
We can agree that Darko was an understandable call given all the hype the guy got. But certainly not the right call.
Trey would have been awesome to keep in state and get some excitement back to the Pistons but it wasnt the right move. Knight is their guy and they are going to stick with him. If they drafted Trey that could have just killed Knights confidence.
Pope is a smooth shooter, tall at 6'6 and got a crazy wingspan. He was at Georgia so not a lot of people know him, I compare him to Klay Thompson. Klay played for the god awful Washington State Cougars team and killed it. He could be the same type of player, I wouldnt be surprised if he lit some teams up this year with kick outs from Knight, Monroe and Drummond.
I would easily take Trey Burke over Klay Thompson (if Pope even gets that good)
Tony Mitchell cannot play the 3. Tony Mitchell would love to be an Andre Drummond clone. He has all the same strengths and weaknesses, just not as strong and a little weaker. He dunks, rebounds, and blocks shots but his motor and IQ are in question. He will never have the defensive positioning understanding to defend the 3, and doesn't shoot nearly well enough to play it on offense.
He was a second round pick. A crappy team like the Pistons should be looking for boom or bust prospects like Mitchell in the second round. It was a savvy pick.
We need a shooting guard
Stuckey is great off the bench but we need someone to drain jumpers after defenses collapse on Drummond and Monroe
I think Dumars made the right call. He even picked up a good option at the point in the 2nd Round in Siva.
Joey D has been up / down. He assembled the only NBA champion without a superstar. He drafted Darko. He also drafted Drummond and Monroe. He traded Grant Hill for Wallace and Chucky Atkins. He also signed Charlie V and Gordon to extremely generous contracts.
The comparisons to Matt Millen are absurd. Joey D constructed teams went to 6 conference finals in a row. If the Lions went to the NFC championship game 6 times consecutively, we would build a statute of the GM involved. He knows this year is a make or break year. If we make the play-offs, he keeps his job. If not, he's done.
To suggest that Joe Dumars has done anything but try to make the Pistons better---is laughable. I'm sure we have several contributors who are in the basketball hall of fame like Joe Dumars. Or have constructed NBA championship rosters. Let the man do his job. If he fails, you won't have Joey D to kick around anymore.
Also, people are forgetting that Davidson dying didn't do him any favors. The ownership vacuum doesn't help attract free agents or the absence of a clear mandate from the folk's writing the checks.
He needs to get Lindsay Hunter back on the squad again
/s
The Pistons are irrelevant. The stands depict that. Nothing that happened yesterday changes that, The Pistons haven't bottomed out and because they haven't they have not had the chance to draft an elite talent. As a result the Pistons are mired in a morass of mediocrity that is slowing killing the franchise. Fans have largely given up on the franchise. The only hope is found among the diehards. The rest are indifferent or hostile to the current regime.
Drafting Burke, despite his flaws, would have at least injected some fan interest into the Pistons. But they didn't and so people will still continue to ignore the Pistons.
when dumars traded chauncey the pistons were an oooooold team , they might have had one or two more years of quality play before they would have had to blow up the team, much like the celtics just did except they had HOF guys in garnett and pierce to trade and traded their coach too (wtf). Would the aging pistons have gotten past the celtics/cavs/heat, i dont remember who was good in the east back then, or the lakers in the finals? I doubt it, but chauncey was the only really tradable piece so what is he going to do.
Burke would be off the board so we wouldn't have to meltdown when he was passed over but this was the right call. One small guard in the NBA is ok, but two vastly undersized guards are a recipe for disaster. I can no longer defend Joe D. as a GM but this was the correct call. Knight cannot be called a bust at this pt and I'm not willing to endure an even longer rebuild because we chose to bail on Knight to appease the UM fanbase. Also, all u ideeots that chuse 2 kerrect evry speling error git a(got that one right!) fracking lyfe. It's an internet message board fergodsakes the poster who has more important things to be doing than error-proofing their message>the d-bag who feels the need to berate each poster who fat fingers a few characters or skips proper punctuation. Of course I do rescind that statement in regards to anyone who is an obvious idiot or is trolling. In that case give them hell.
This isn't just a message board, it's MGOBLOG fergodsakes.
I'd award you pts or a cookie if I could
If you agree the pistons weren't going to win any more championships with the 04 starting five, after the 07-08 season, after losing back to back conference finals 4-2, then you decide to break up the team.
2 options: 1) Slow rebuild through the draft or 2) Quick reload.
Joe D chose 2) and traded Chauncey for Allen Iverson aka 20 million in cap space a yr later. Unfortunately, and literally, the only two "good" free agents on the market were Ben Gordon and CV. BG had just come off of scoring all of his teams points in a reggie miller-esque playoff run, and CV still had promise.
Should Joe D have known there weren't going to be any good free agents. Perhaps. However, you do not know who is going accept their player options, which teams will protect restricted free agents, and utilize team options, so there is alot of uncertainty.
This leaves the draft. If you want to question his draft record, then I'd say you have to look at who would have been a better pick. Darko (melo, bosh, wade) and Austin Daye (jeff teague, jrue holiday) both stand out, because of who was selected after them. Besides that, he's drafted well. The NBA is littered with his 2nd rd picks (affalo, amir johnson, singler, jerebko, delfino, mehmet).
I'm not saying he's infallible, and shouldnt be criticized, but it should be on the right terms. He's guilty of not tanking, and trying to maintain a winner, which exacerbated winning. There's no certainty either way, but i do think we have a bright core, in drummond moose, knight, kcp and singler. With Moose and drummond inside, who do you leave open for three? SIngler, KCP, or Knight?
The core of the 2004 championship team was aging. Contending for or winning another championship wasn't going to happen.
The Chauncey-AI trade was a hail mary that didn't work. But, given that the team was no longer a contender, it was worth it to take a gamble.
The biggest strategic error has been Joe's effort to maintain a somewhat competitive team...instead of letting the team decline more quickly...which could've led to a quicker rebound.
Whether that's "literally" true or not....
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ys-freeagents062909
It was the year before the free agent class with LeBron and everyone. (Much like we have cap space in this year's crappy class, the year before a good one next year). You do realize you're not required to spend all your cap space every year, don't you, and you can save it?
If you agree the pistons weren't going to win any more championships with the 04 starting five, after the 07-08 season, after losing back to back conference finals 4-2, then you decide to break up the team.
2 options: 1) Slow rebuild through the draft or 2) Quick reload.
Joe D chose 2) and traded Chauncey for Allen Iverson aka 20 million in cap space a yr later. Unfortunately, and literally, the only two "good" free agents on the market were Ben Gordon and CV. BG had just come off of scoring all of his teams points in a reggie miller-esque playoff run, and CV still had promise.
Should Joe D have known there weren't going to be any good free agents. Perhaps. However, you do not know who is going accept their player options, which teams will protect restricted free agents, and utilize team options, so there is alot of uncertainty.
This leaves the draft. If you want to question his draft record, then I'd say you have to look at who would have been a better pick. Darko (melo, bosh, wade) and Austin Daye (jeff teague, jrue holiday) both stand out, because of who was selected after them. Besides that, he's drafted well. The NBA is littered with his 2nd rd picks (affalo, amir johnson, singler, jerebko, delfino, mehmet).
I'm not saying he's infallible, and shouldnt be criticized, but it should be on the right terms. He's guilty of not tanking, and trying to maintain a winner, which exacerbated winning. There's no certainty either way, but i do think we have a bright core, in drummond moose, knight, kcp and singler. With Moose and drummond inside, who do you leave open for three? SIngler, KCP, or Knight?
I am proud to say that the 2013 NBA finals were the first NBA games I watched in 5 years. I still have not watched a single second of the pistons since the 2008 Conference finals. Cause fuck Joe Dumars. Fire Joe and you will get the fans back.
A savvy basketball owner knows that the only reliable way to increase ticket sales/fan interest over the long term is to win games. Drafting and/or signing local heroes because they're popular isn't good business over the long term. I think it's debatable who will be the better NBA player, TB or KCP. Trey was slightly better offensively, while KCP was a better defender and rebounder. Dumars has made plenty of boneheaded decisions but drafting KCP and Tony Mitchell weren't among them.
Really? You've seemed pretty comfortable declaring that every player on the Pistons roster including KCP, Mitchell and Drummond will never ever be anything more than mediocre role players.
Anyways, we're sitting here 1 day after the draft so all we to go on are college stats and our eyes. I don't know about you, but I don't make a habit of watching SEC basketball so I have to base my arguments off of stats. The stats say Burke is more efficient offensively (they had similar usage rates), but KCP is a better defender and rebounder. It remains to be seen who will be the better player, but based on their stats they are of similar value. In a few years we'll be able to look back and see who improved more and became the better player, but we're having the argument today. I personally think KCP has a higher ceiling due to his athleticism, but we'll see. I hope both players turn out to be all stars, but I would settle for solid starters.
1) Cashflow is not the relevant constraint on free agent acquisitions - the salary cap and player interest/availability are the only things preventing the Pistons from making a big FA signing. So I can't agree that getting a bump in ticket sales would "allow us to go after a high priced free agent..."
2) Some people rated Burke higher but a series of lists isn't very convincing to me. I need an evidenced based argument. Wages of Wins ranked KCP as the 3rd best prospect in the draft based on their advanced stats. The analysis on Detroit Bad Boys seems to think both players are of similar quality, depending which metrics you use. I'm disappointed we didn't pick Burke, but I can't really criticize the pick.
3) Gores did graduate from MSU. It's a conspiracy!11!1
Hey, someone else who is reasonable when it comes to this topic. Join the club, we're few and far in-between.
KCP is extremely underrated, maybe the most underrated player in college basketball. He was very efficient despite being the only good player on a team full of scrubs, with defenses keying on him every single game.
He can shoot well going to his left and right, coming off of screens, the dribble, pull ups, spot ups, and in pick and roll situations. He is by no means a bad selection, as he fills a legitimate need for floor spacing, size, and defense at the guard position.
It also seems like the Pistons are making a run at Eric Bledsoe, which in context makes the pick extremely logical, as those two players would fit well together. They're both disruptive forces on defense and in the passing lanes who rebound at a high level for their positions.
Thanks. I'm not a Dumars apologist by any means (I personally think he should've been fired after the Charlie V/BG fiasco) but the reality is that he made excellent picks this year. I'm not sure why, but a good portion of this blog's readership really hates NBA basketball. I think that's leading to a really reactionary, uninformed response from a lot of people. Who knows what's gonna happen with KCP and TB, but I think both have the potential to be great players.
I'm also very excited abou the Mitchell pick. He had academic and motiviation issues, but seems extremely talented. That's exactly the kind of risk you take with a non-guaranteed, second round pick. It almost seems like Joe D has his mojo back.
I'm less excited about the Bledsoe rumor. He doesn't shoot very well and he's got a mediocre A/TO ratio. He's also 6'1". I didn't follow the Clippers, did he play primarily SG? I'm not a big fan of 6'1" shooting guards. All depends on the contract, I guess.
The Pistons would bring him in to play point and the trade would center around Brandon Knight. As a playmaker it's basically an even trade off. Bledsoe has a slightly higher assist percentage and a slightly higher turnover percentage. However, as a defender there is really no comparison. Bledsoe is orders of magnitude better than Knight on the defensive end.
He's also much better at attacking the paint and finishing at the rim than Knight. If he could develop a corner 3, he'd start to become a deadly offensive weapon.
Bledsoe's shooting zones:
Hmmm. He's a pretty inefficient offensive player. I think I'd rather resign Calderon and use Siva as a change of pace off the bench than invest in Bledsoe.
I don't think you understand how the salary cap/luxury tax works. I'm not as familiar with the most recent version, but you can only go above it to resign your own player or with the mid-level exception, veteran's minimum, etc. So, yeah, being at, near or over the salary cap would totally prevent you signing a big-time free agent from another team.
And you have your analysis completely backwards regarding small market teams. The salary cap, makes it harder to increase payroll (see above) and the luxury tax makes each marginal dollar spent much more costly and punishes teams that try to spend there way out of bad situations. That decreases the variance in spending and prevents teams like the Knicks from just buying players to cover for their past mistakes. Just look a the MLB. The salary cap makes it easier for small market teams to stay competitive.
Tell that to Joe Dumars under Karen Davidson.
I'm not sure if you think that is an effective counterpoint. Even if you think Joe D was severely constrained by KD, it's the exception that proves the rule. Personally, I think the whole KD think is just an excuse by Dumars apologists.
Even Bill who liked to win...how many max free agents did the Pistons ever sign? They wouldn't even pay Ben Wallace when he was going to be overpaid to keep him, and they were winning then.
Owners can be cheap, but it's not like the increased cashflow from Trey Burke fans coming to the Palace is going be the deciding factor in whether or not the Pistons offer somebody a max contract. And to be clear, that's the point I refuted.
As for the Pistons, they were at or above the cap and barely avoided the luxury tax for their championship runs and the Flip Saunders era.
Halftime shows like this
draw in the fans from metro Detroit.
You know why I hate pro sports? Lack of local faces. Specifically, Maize and Blue faces.
- Michigan's last Piston was Chris Webber in 2006-07
- Michigan's last Red Wing was Mike Knuble in 1997-98
- Michigan's last Tiger was Bill Freehan in 1976
- Michigan's last Lion was Jeff Backus in 2012
Gores is a shit owner. Barely goes to any games. Tinfoil hat time, but perhaps he didn't want the potential face of the franchise to be a Michigan player.
Not gonna lie, I clicked on OPs title thinking I was going to read about this guy...
Knight may have played point guard at one time in his career, but not anymore. The man is a 2, and that's where he will have the best success over the course of his NBA career. Thus, picking up Burke in this draft would not only have not created a log jame at the 1, it would've actually filled a position of need. Casual and serious Pistons fans alike are able to see how moronic of a decision by Joey D this was. There is no defending him anymore.
Screw up once (AI), shame on you. Fool me twice (Ben Gordon, Charlie Villanueva), shame on me. Fool me thrice, 4 times, 5 times, etc... (hiring Curry, Kuester, Frank and Mo Cheeks, failing in free agency, passing on Burke), then I begin to wonder if you and the people who keep who employed have a single competent bone their body.
1) I would have been fine with firing Joe D after the CV/BG signings.
2) However, there's no evidence that drafting KCP over Burke was a mistake. Stats indicate that both are of similar quality. Additionally, we needed both a SG and a PG. Knight is not a starting quality 1 or 2. He shot 41% last year. He's irrelevant.