OT: Could an elite 9th grade AAU boys basketball team beat the NCAA woman's national champions?
Slow day on the board so I thought I'd ask others about something I've wondered about for a while. Having watched a good bit of the B1G women's bball tournament this week I was struck by how few people were in attendance and how far below the rim the game is played. I coached boy's basketball up to the JV level in High School and generally speaking in about 9th grade the game changes dramatically because at 15 many boys can elevate above the rim. In the games I watched this week none of the woman could get close to the rim, much less above it. And the pace the ball was pushed up court seemed slow as hell to me.
My whole life I've been told we should pay just as much attention to woman's sports as mens but are the games they play even close to being equivalent? I think a good 9th grade boys team would beat the woman's national champion. Is the reason interest is minimal in woman's collegiate basketball simply because the quality of the game is roughly that of 8th grade boys?
destroyt the best womens college team in the country 10 out of 10 times.
9th graders are way too distracted by boobs.
Aren't all guys?
Nope, just 9th graders.
I'm pretty sure womens basketball players are not usually the best looking girls around.
Is that you?
Generally true...but there are exceptions
I'm sure Stu Douglass might have an issue with that statement.
Yup, there are definitely exceptions. I was just saying in general. I should have worded my comment differently.
You must not have seen Britanny Griner /s
...They would win, every time.
I'll take da Bears.
What? Just one or what?
No no, all of 'em. Yeah, on a big bus. With Ditka drivin'.
What about Ditka versus a hurricane, and the hurricane's name is "Ditka"?
And they should have the right to play the same sports as everyone else. That does NOT mean the quality of the product is the same as the male equivalent. It's not a bad thing. It's just what it is. 9th grade I'm not sure about... you learn a lot of little tricks in college that'll beat athleticism every time. State champ varsity team though? Oh yeah.
It wouldn't surprise me if the 9th graders could beat the women b/c of size/athleticism alone. On the other hand, I would expect the NCAA college champions to have a better knowledge of the game, be much more poised in important situations, and execute as a team much more soundly. I'd expect the women to have an easier time scoring than a lot on this board might think because of this. I would also add that in this game more than most, the style of officiating could have a huge impact on the result.
My gf played college soccer and her team would often scrimmage the local highschool team. She said the games were close and as described above, the women were much better at technical soccer skills, but the men were much more athletic. So while their organization on the field and execution was better, 50/50 type plays weren't 50/50 at all. I could see this going either way. Interesting question though.
Bump that up to a good high school varsity basketball team and I'd agree with you. No way a 9th grade team could compete with the best college team.
It's a little sad to say this, but truly high-level AAU basketball is played at a higher level than most varsity HS basketball. I was on a pretty strong team that was top ten in the county and battled hard with Brandon Knight's team my (and his) senior year, but memories of my 15 and under AAU team and the talent we had makes me feel like that was probably a better team than my varsity team was. It's tough to say, though and you may be right. Just one of those unanswerable hypotheticals.
I was going to jump in and say this. With AAU teams these days, starting in 5th grade as they do, by the time the kids are in 9th grade they are some skilled players. Some of you may be right, they don't "know" the game as well as they would by Varsity/College, but the skill of 9th graders these days is up there and I have no doubt they could and would take a collegiate women's team; easily, on the right day.
Not the same sport, but an analogy--I heard the US women's soccer team used to scrimmage with local high school teams back in 1999 and frequently lost to them.
Of course physicality is more important than basketball than soccer, so the relative advantage to men would increase.
The games being played are barely the same sport; they (unfairly) expect women to play the game with the same height rim and the men. The 10' rim in WBB is one of the dumber things in womens sports, IMO. Move the rim to 11' for men, and it'd be a lot the same stuff. My evidence:
Average WNBA height: 5'11.55
Average NBA height: 6'7.40 (both from 2002, since it's the only WNBA number that came up)
Not to take anything away from people that are 5'11-6' (I'm one of them) but a ten foot rim just isn't appropriate for people of my height, especially considering that women are, as a whole, less athletic than a 6' shooting guard on the mens side. Basketball isn't a sport like track where everything is the exact same; women are shorter and need a shorter net.
/rant
It's the same reason women drive from the women's tees in golf. They're shorter, smaller and cannot hope to generate the same force as a proficient man in driving. To get fair scores, you need to knock 20% of the distance of the hole off for the women. It's not a quesiton of their desire or their training. I wouldn't even begin to think I'm better than someone at something else because I'm bigger or have a more natural predisposition for it.
But the fact remains, scale down the game, and it becomes less entertaining.
on the last sentence. I don't really have an answer for that, other than to say people might be more inclined to tune in to a 77-75 game than a lower scoring affair. I don't pretend to actually know that, though.
25% of HS baseball players could get a hit off Jenny Finch.
I'd bet 0% of HS baseball players could get a hit off MeganGoBlue.
/woobrowniepoints?withwhom?
I would bet it's much lower than 25%. As someone who played baseball in high school, it's really weird to see a ball come at you from that angle and the distance is much closer. Then again, I was not a good hitter.
It's apples to oranges...
Trying to hit a baseball and trying to hit a softball are two totally different things.
I'd take that bet in a heartbeat. 5% of HS baseball players couldn't get a hit on Jenny Finch.
It's a completely different game, throwing angle, etc.
I've seen college softball pitchers mow down college baseball players. To this HS players (presumably worse than college players) could hit Finch (definitely a better pitcher than any college pitcher) is almost absurd.
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As for the question. An elite 9th grade basketball team could compete in D1 Basketball, but they wouldn't dominate, nor could they beat the elite teams. IMO the best 9th grade AAU team would be like a 6-8 seed in the women's NCAA Tournament. For one, elite D1 women's basketball players are in great shape. #2 Someone like Maya Moore or Diana Taurasi would DOMINATE any 9th grade team. Even if that team had LeBron James in 9th grade.
It's apples to oranges...
Trying to hit a baseball and trying to hit a softball are two totally different things.
I'd take that bet in a heartbeat. 5% of HS baseball players couldn't get a hit on Jenny Finch.
It's a completely different game, throwing angle, etc.
I've seen college softball pitchers mow down college baseball players. To this HS players (presumably worse than college players) could hit Finch (definitely a better pitcher than any college pitcher) is almost absurd.
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As for the question. An elite 9th grade basketball team could compete in D1 Basketball, but they wouldn't dominate, nor could they beat the elite teams. IMO the best 9th grade AAU team would be like a 6-8 seed in the women's NCAA Tournament. For one, elite D1 women's basketball players are in great shape. #2 Someone like Maya Moore or Diana Taurasi would DOMINATE any 9th grade team. Even if that team had LeBron James in 9th grade.
Exactly. The sheer physical advantadge 9th grade boys would bring to the game would tilt it in their favor IMO. Elite 9th grade AAU teams dunk like hell, my guess is the ladies would have one hell of a time even getting a shot off unless it was waaaaaay out on the perimeter.
They play with a smaller ball. Same diameter of hoop. It's already "corrected."
If this hypothetical game was played with a men's size ball, that would be a huge advantage to the 9th grade boys. Have you guys ever played pickup games with women and played with a men's size ball? Women have a hard time controlling the smaller ball - the larger ball would result in a ton of turnovers and hurt their ability to drive, handle pressure etc. It would be turnover city.
Was commenting on how the above poster wanted to correct the rim size for women. The size of the ball helps them out tremendously.
Yes, whenever I played co-ed intramurally we always played with a female ball so the girls on our team wouldn't be worthless. It screwed my whole game up, bc I'm a Shane Battier type player (hard nosed D, wing and corner 3's only offense to speak of). I airballed at least one tre a game bc of it.
But I'd rather have my whole game suffer than the entire clusterfuck that happens when a girl (even the ex-HS players that went for 20ppg) tries even dribbling a man's basketball.
But a lot of the OP was about the differences in play, and how little above the rim play there is in the womens game. The ball being smaller most likely does a lot to keep points up and make ball control easier, but changing the size of the ball won't do anything to elevate the game (in a literal sense).
Also, that first post of mine had some bad sentence structure/grammar errors. I usually try to keep those to a minimum, but I guess I completely missed the boat on that post.
Since you're nitpicking yourself, I'd like to jump in as well. While changing the height of the rim will definitely change how "above the rim" the game is played, don't discount the size of the ball as at least as a minor factor.
Proof: I can dunk a women's basketball perfectly almost 100% of the time. I can dunk the men's sized basketball maybe 60% of the time? I blame my tiny surgeon hands.
And something I wasn't aware of. I don't think I've ever played with the womens ball (that's not saying much, I don't play often).
Either way, I could probably dunk about 1% of the time on a good day. I blame short legs and a long torso.
a 10ft rim is appropriate for women, but not for men. This game was designed to be played under the rim.
this last sentence is true. It would never have occurred to anyone in the first six decades of basketball that more than a handful of players would ever play above the rim. Before Mikan I doubt they would have even imagined that handful. There was no goaltending rule because no one had ever thought it might be needed.
I've noticed that the people I know who most enjoy the women's game are elderly ex-coaches--men like my father now in their 80s or even older, who see with the women the game they once learned and taught.
Only one way to settle this. Get on the horn people! We have a pay per view game of the century to set up. We can make millions on this. The View could host halftime analysis and Sir Mix A-Lot could be the color announcer.
Bobby Riggs is willing to sponsor this "battle of the sexes".
When I was in law school we had a league. I was on a meh team in the lowest division -- we were just a bunch of guys goofing around mainly, the best you could say about us was we were one-dimensional: I could shoot but was subpar at most of the other things, we had a guy who could dribble and pass a little, and there was a big overweight guy who was good for rebounding. On defense...we tried. There was one team in our league that was made up of women, most of whom played small college or at least high-school ball. And we managed to beat them anyway.
I dunno about ninth-graders, but if you had a bunch of high-schoolers, the smart money would have to be on the boys.
I think it would be close, but only because of coaching. AAU ball tends to be glorified street ball, but if you had a well coached team of 9th grade all stars, I honestly don't think it would be close.
I played HS ball and I dated a girl who played at WMU. I can honestly say that her on ball defense was as good as any ive ever played against, it was very frustrating! She was 3rd string and never really got much playing time in college. Its important to realize that the game is so much more than pure athleticism, those girls are highly skilled and fundamentally sound. I would guess the level of play is very good HS varsity level on average. The National Champion womens team would beat the Michigan state champion in my opinion.
Basketball is still a team game and I will go against the grain here and say that a college women's national championship team will easiky beat a 9th grade boys team. Experience, teamwork, dedicated training, better endurance, game study, better discipline and better coaching will beat athleticism.
I work with a woman who played at Central Michigan...she's about 6 foot tall...weighs about half what I do...but delivers elbows and a fade shot beyond the 'BOYS' three point arc you cannot stop...hands down, the top NCAA women's team beats the top 9th grade AAU whatevermacalits...most of those girls are stronger than you'd think and the 9th grade is still a bit of a transitional year for boys mentally and even physically...elite athetes are still elite athletes.
Yes, an elite 9th grade boys team could beat the women's ncaa champs, but I wouldn't think that an average boys team could, although it would probably be close. I remember being in high school (over a decade ago) and playing basketball at Joe Dumar's Fieldhouse one night, when a couple of girls asked us if they could play the winners of our game. Anyway, these 3 girls were actually pretty good, but me and my buddies still won. They were about 5 years older than us. When they told us that they were on scholarship playing basketball at UCLA- I remember me and my buddies thinking- REALLY?? WTF? You mean that school PAYS for you to fly from Michigan to LA and attend school, just to play basketball, and you just lost to a couple of 10th grade suburbanites who were only playing hoops to stay in shape for football season? THAT is when I decided that I would not be buying season tickets to the WNBA. /s
I decided not to buy season tickets to the WNBA when the NBA announced that it was launching something called the WNBA.
This is a no brainer. When I was in law school at ND, the women's team was very strong. They went to the final four a bunch of times and I think even played in the championship game one year I was there, if I'm not mistaken. Needless to say, they were a top 5 program all 3 years I was there.
The girls team would come to the gym and play pick up with the boys. They had so many advantages. 1) they were all in shape, we were not. 2) they were a team, we were a random collection of 5 guys. 3) they made us play with a girls ball. Nonetheless, I don't think I ever participated in or saw a girls victory. Just a random collection of guys playing with a girls ball beat them every single time. They were not blow outs, but they were always wins.
An elite group of 9th graders who are in shape and actually know how to play together would destroy the girls, no doubt.
Not only does my situation help answer the OP's question, it falls in line with your answer as well. My sister played at ND, probably in during the years you are talking about. She was a starter and eventual captain for the Lady Irish, with her 1st yr being when they went to final four in '97 and her senior season being the year right before they won the national championship.
A year or two after she graduated, she decided to go back to basketball and give it a shot professionally (which she did do in Europe and South America, but never ended up making it in the U.S.). I, at the time, was in my middle high school years. Although I was decent in baseball and recruited on a D1 level for football, my bball game was best left for the playground. I never made it past JV basketball, and although my size and freakish wingspan afforded me to average double digits in rebounds and the occasional double digit in blocks, only once in my "career" did I ever score more than 10 points in a game.
When my sister was training to go back into basketball, since I was the only one of her siblings still active in sports, I would occasionally assist in her workouts and play 1 on 1 games with her. It would be a competitive game, but I almost always came out ahead. Defensively, she was able to stop me from getting into the paint or posting up. However, I could shoot as many jumpshots as I wanted, and very seldom was I not able to get rebounds over her for neverending 2nd chance shots. I did not have as much finesse as her, but although she was considered one of the tougher players in the women's game, she could never match up with me physcially despite her height and age advantage.
Ultimately, if a mediocre undersized 16 year old can consistently beat one of the most intergral players of one of country's best college teams, I'd put money on a decent 9th HS boys team to beat the best college women's team everytime.
Playing one on one is a different animal than playing as a team. I was never a great 1 on 1 player because of my height 5' 8'' but I meshed well enough to start at PG in high school on a team that won 2 league championships.
As a college sophomore, 4 of my friends and I (none of us had played past JV in high school) played pick up against the varsity Michigan women on a few different occasions and we pretty much crushed them every time. There was no doubt they were more knowledgable and even maybe more skiled than us, but our physicality completely dominated the game.
So I think a group of skilled athletic 9th graders could definitely beat any women's team.