OT: Calling all students: What motivated you in high school?
I'm curious to know what motivated you to do well in high school? Was there ever a period when you weren't motivated or had a crisis of confidence relating to your school work? How did you deal with not doing well in a class? I'm assuming that many of you are at Michigan, so you figured it all out in the end, but did you ever have times when you really were just not into schoolwork? How did your parents deal with it?
Edit: Thanks to all of you who spent time writing responses. It's helpful to get different perspectives on this.
My son plays baseball, too, and thankfully this hasn't affected him too much there. He's very motivated to work hard and get to practice on time.
A freshman who is doing well in every class except geometry honors. He's currently getting a D and failed the last test and quiz. He's always said he wanted to go to Michigan but this class has completely demoralized him this year, and I mean completely. In middle school, he got all A's (maybe one or two B's) without having to do much work. So, as a parent, I'm trying to figure out what I can or should do at this point, and I figured all the students around here would remember this period better than I do.
There is such a thing as a "math wall" that some kids hit. I wouldn't think it would be geometry for someone described as an all A student though. Geometry always seemed like the class where if you just did your work you were going to understand the material. It isn't like calculus where you actually have to be capable of understanding the material.
You might want to check and make sure he is doing his homework and not getting "help" from his friends with it. Aside from that, the only real solution is for him to get more 1 on 1 help from the teacher or a tutor.
This is honors, which, in our school, is more like high high honors. 30% of the kids failed the final. 15% of the kids dropped back down into regular geometry at the beginning of the year because the pace and workload were crazy. My son should have done that, but he didn't want to be "demoted." The people who do well (all four of them) do at least an hour's worth of homework a night and then bring in questions before school to AM support every single day. They cover one section a day no matter what and if you don't understand something, it's your responsibility to do extra work outside of class to catch up. The teacher teaches to the top students. It's not really a great way to initiate a freshman into high school math, unless you're a super motivated kid who already knows that you want to be an engineer or math major.
Yep, sounds like the advanced math group I was in back in the day. At the end of the day, it is still just geometry. It is a tough lesson for a young person to learn, but better to learn as a freshman that your decisions have consequences than later in high school. Colleges don't care so much about grades from 9th grade, as long as steady improvement is shown over the next 3 years.
This is exactly what I want to say--I had a D midway through the semester in my freshman highschool math class (fortunately, had a friendly teacher and opportunity make up some homework I just hadn't bothered to do).
Looking back, that was one of the best experiences I've ever had. I learned accountability from it (my parents were certainly involved, but I had to do the legwork--to go to the teacher and ask what I could do to catch back up and report back to them). And a lot of kids I know didn't have to step up their game in highschool--they never took classes hard enough to require that--which meant the transition to college was much harder for them. Better to realize what it takes to study and learn on your own now--hopefully your son can pick up that lesson and use it, it will serve him very well in the future.
He either has a terrible teacher (30% failure!) or he just needs to study more. I bombed my first college bio exam after breezing through every one of my high school classes. I always felt like I studied hard, but when I really thought about it I wasn't dedicating much time to really understanding the material.
Honestly, the thing that motivated me was watching my parents work hard and having them remind me why good grades are important. Some kids take more motivating than that, but that worked well for me.
Both. He's in the wrong class and he needs to learn how to sit down every night and study even if he doesn't have homework.
He does have homework but it doesn't count towards his grade. I wish it would. At this point, with one month left, he's sort of given up. And the teacher doesn't really seem to care. But I know she's feeling the pressure of a lot of the parents who are complaining about the same things. The tests don't reflect what they're learning in class. They rifle through a section a day whether the majority of the class understands the material or not. There's a lot of peer teaching, which doesn't work with my son. It just makes him feel stupid. There's a small handful of students who are doing well, but there's a much larger number who aren't.
You say Geometry is BS. I'm wondering what your focus in math is? I'm graduating with a major in math and my opninion is that Geometry is far from BS, it's pretty vital. Always interested in other prespectives.
I felt Geometry was really boring with proofs. It felt a lot less like I was solving problems than most other of my math classes. Algebra, Calculus (1,2, and 4 not 3), and trig were all classes I liked and seemed to use.
In regards to the OP. I was motivated in math by getting frustrated in not being the top grade. This was because I was probably behind my skill level and was bored (I was in regular algebra in 9th for comparison). I also didn't really worry as much about my grades though as I really could not write until about my junior year when a teacher sat me down and gave me an outline of exactly how an argumentive paper was written. I always assumed I would go to state, but did end up getting into Michigan.
At Michigan I barely passed Chemistry (C+) and had to drop out of Woody plants as I had a 30% in the class. I ended up fine with a 3.2 GPA and an Engineering degree. Your son is getting a tough good lesson though. There are things we just are not good at, but that just pushes us to the things we are good at. For most, HS is a breaze and get a huge wakeup call at college. Good luck overall, I'm sure he will do fine wherever he ends up.
I have to agree with this.
I somewhat struggled with geometry in high school compared to other math classes. I went on to do really well in Electrical Engineering at Michigan and honestly rarely if ever used anything from geometry except the very basic stuff.
The only class that ever required the more advanced stuff from geometry in college was Calc III, which was 3D calculus. Not surprisingly, I struggled with this class as well, but I managed to fight through it and have never used it for anything ever again in my life either (I do computer prorgramming work now). I imagine there are people that DO use geometry and 3D calculus all the time, say for example people who do 3D graphics programming maybe, but they are two subjects that I have never needed to use for anything.
Unfortunately, that's the way many college classes operate. I studied neuroscience at UM, and most of my classes were absolute sprints through the material. It was common to have nearly half of our class fail (52% average score) organic chemistry exams. After curving the grade most poeple passed, but the fact that most of the class only knows half the material should be a red flag to any teacher/school.
He's going to have to develop a study routine by devoting a portion of his free time every day to it.
Classes like Orgo are designed for the average score to be 50% because they are weeder classes. Getting a 50% on the test means you know enough but are not great. My roommate got above a 90% on every Orgo test before the curve and it inlcluded a couple 100%. The way he studied was by having people come ask him questions. He is now getting a Phd at Harvard paid for by the US government after getting into everywhere he applied. The point of Orgo is to identify kids like him.
In terms of the OP I was a terrible high school student. I got C's in a couple classes, was never really motivated to do homework and overall pissed my parents and teachers off. The flip side was that I got A's on all my tests and papers, I didn't feel like doing homework when I thought it I already knew what the homework was teaching. Or I prefered reading other books than textmarking the dumb ones picked by the curriculum. I still managed to get into Michigan because of standardized test scores and extra curriculars but if you are wondering what it takes to turn him around find what he is passionate about. I got into Michigan because I was passionate about social justice issues, so I spent one summer working with habitate for humanity, then another summer working for a non-profit in Honduras, etc.
If he is passionate about something and applies himself to it things will usually work themselves out in the end.
I dunno about that. I definitely don't mean to come out and say a kid should be ashamed of himself for dropping down to the "regular" class. But a lot of smart kids won't want to consider that as an option. The original question was "what motivated you in high school?" and for me the answer (besides the various carrots and sticks laid down by my parents) was hanging out with smart people and not wanting to fall behind. If your friends are all in honors and AP or IB classes, then you'll probably want to be as well. It sounds like the frustration here comes partly from not wanting to admit defeat, as it were, by dropping down a level.
Plus, in a regular class there might be the opposite problem. Instead of the teacher focusing on the top of the class, they're likely to focus on the bottom. If the real issue is that you just do. not. get. it. - that's helpful. If the real issue is quality of instruction, it's not going to do the least bit of good.
you prob missed out on a lot of really cool people and good friends because you didnt want to hang out with the "dumb" people from the regular classes, but then again, not sure they would want to hang out with somebody like you anyway
Right, this from the same life's loser who got turned down from U-M and the resulting feeling of inadequacy and small dicked-ness caused him to go on an unhinged rant about how U-M students were all arrogant whiny rich kids in a post entitled "douchey MGoBlog users." Did your amateur psychology work out that totally idiotic and off-based conclusion about me all by yourself, or did you need help from someone who was smart enough to get into Michigan?
no, since people like you are a dime a dozen and transparent as fuck, I was able to figure it out all by myself
Yeah, OK. I actually had - have - no problem hanging out with most people, because most people aren't jealous and judgmental dickheads like you. Tell me, what exactly is it that makes you "cool people and a good friend"? The raging envy, or the immediate leap to judgment about people you've never met? It's not like you've proven yourself to be the kind of person people like.
Talk about leaping to judgement...
Admittedly the jealousy thing is outta line and as much an amateur psychology troll as everything white pony is saying. I figure, since he's already pegged me as snobby and arrogant and has no intention to change that opinion, I might as well play it up all the way. And I have no idea how big or small his dick is.
That said, you know as much as anyone how long and bizarre the "douchey" rant was, and if you combine that with these other posts, I have no problems calling him baselessly judgmental. He has no idea who I am or what I did or who I knew in high school, but he's got no problems coming to irrevocable conclusions anyway.
I don't disagree with that. That rant was epic, and showed a lot of his character (or lack thereof).
Spawned my signature!
I've been in to talk to the teacher a few times. On one occasion, he said that sometimes even he doesn't know the answers to the questions. He has a graduate degree from Northwestern. Another teacher said to another parent, "Can you believe how hard these tests are?" My son certainly could work harder, but if he was in regular geometry, he'd be getting at least a B or B+ without killing himself. I know other kids in that class and what they're capable of. There's something about this class that only works for five or six students. Everyone else is getting a C or below.
was russian. Plumen Jacov. He could barely speak english and he was to smart to teach the class. To him, a complex calc 1 derivitive was as simple as adding two numbers. After most of the class failed the first gate exam, we asked him to go over each of the 8 problems.
He honestly was so perplexed and just said "you just derive the equations". There is a definite sweat zone between people that are too dumb to teach a subject and those that are too smart.
Geometry and Calculus are like two entirely different worlds.
It is entirely possible for someone who was somewhat confounded by geometry to still be good at Calculus. Geometry, at least the way my high school taught it, is like it's from a different universe. Alegbra, Alegbra 2 and Calculus are all about solving problems. Geometry is like philosophy--you are doing all this bizarre proving of crap. It's completely esoteric and can totally throw you for a loop when you are used to math being a very concrete and result driven exercise.
I took math up through Calc IV at Michigan and high-school geometry was one of my least-favorite classes.
I mentioned this as well in another comment of mine. Geometry with proofs just felt like reitterating stuff rather than solving stuff. Algebra, Calc, and Trig were all very different and much more enjoyable.
Geometry is a different beast than a lot of other math disciplines. Especially with an honors class, I'd except there are lots of proof problems. Those require a lot mathematical maturity that some people just don't develop until later.
That was me with Calculus. I was failing first semester.
Tell him that he just has to keep grinding and studying. Also, ask the teacher for help. That's what they are there for. If he just keeps working at it, he can get himself up to a forgivable mark.
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Opinion: The fact that he's demoralized by getting lousy grades is a good sign. Much easier fix than not caring at all. Getting used to having to exert more effort to succeed in school, that takes quite a bit of time. It did for me.
Does the school maintain a list of student math tutors? Learning geometry from an upperclassman who did well on the subject could be very helpful, even if it's just because it's coming from a different voice. Also, do a little homework on the math teachers at the school. Sometimes a particular teacher-student combo just straight-up doesn't work.
He's had a couple different tutors, one who was legally blind and used a braille textbook, but developed carpal tunnel syndrome, so her fingertips were numb. Seriously, it could only happen to my son. Or on Seinfeld.
None of us are good at everything. And, geometry is different enough from the math classes before and after, that he shouldn't worry that his struggles this year will carry over to the future. Obviously, he still needs to find a way to pull that D up to a C fhis semester. There might be tutors or other help at the school to get him over the hump. I aced geometry in high school without really trying. I never understood the algebra that came after geometry. I struggled to make Cs and the occasional B. I felt like a dumb ass. I'm not guaranteeing he'll do better in his subsequent math classes than in geometry, but I think it's more likely than not that he will. A few years ago I mentioned my aptitude in geometry and idiocy in algebra to a college math prof, and she said it's not that unusual to have students who are otherwise good at math to have problems in geometry and vice versa.
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I was lumped in with "gifted and talented" kids from early in elementary school, but really should not have been for math. I ended up two grade levels ahead in sixth grade and struggled until I got through AP Calc junior year with a 3 on the exam and relief that, because I could take AP Physics senior year, I'd never have to take another math class. Until I took stats at Michigan and failed it because I was a hubristic, dumb 19-year-old and thought I could coast if I took it pass/fail. Good job.
I'm 28 and regret how much I resented and hated math as a kid, because it really would help to be better grounded in it.
So, now that I have identified with your son's struggles, here's are some recommendations in no particular order.
1. If you can afford it, get the kid a tutor. Do some research, ask around, and find somebody good for him to meet with once or twice a week. Depending on where you live there should be some nice young person who's really good at math and teaching and just trying to make a few bucks on the side. I never had a tutor (except briefly for the math section of the SATs, and by god did that pay off) but it would have helped a LOT.
2. If you're competent to help, offer to do his homework with him. Not for him, just sit there and be with him while he does the reading and practice problems, and answer questions as they come up. Be patient and positive and stick with him until he can explain whatever he's confused about back to you. Being able to explain something to someone else clearly and accurately is a sign of mastery.
3. Remind him that he has other skills and qualities at which he excels and that his struggles in math don't degrade him as a person. Some random commenter on the internet named LBSS got into Michigan out-of-state even though he started getting C's and D's in math in sixth grade. (I did end up with mostly B's, B-minuses and C's, there were only a couple of D's in there. But still. Five straight years of being the worst kid in the class.) And I've always been a good writer and reader, so my success in English and history and science classes -- and getting lead roles in plays and doing well at the two sports I really liked -- helped balance out the self-loathing and shame I felt with how bad I did at math (and some other sports). My parents were disappointed when I got bad grades but they only got mad at me if I didn't do the work. Same with any subject.
4. Khan Academy lessons on YouTube.
5. Find extra questions for him to do on top of his homework and tie positive rewards to him completing them successfully. Like, do 15 extra problems this week and if you get 13 of them right we'll buy you a movie ticket.
6. Even if you don't do it with him, make sure he's doing all his homework, carefully, every day. Practice is vital.
I've slowly lowered my expectations here. At the beginning of the school year, I freaked out. I was all over him. Then I pulled back and thought he needs to learn from this. If he gets a C- or even a D, it's not the end of the world. And he has to own his effort. Now I'm seeing a couple of F's and worrying that he'll have to take the class over. Right now, that's something I'm having a hard time living with. It may take him a while to get a clearer perspective, but he will definitely learn something from this. And I suspect, so will I.
So this isn't your question, but it reminded me of how I did well in college.
I was a very good student in high school but nowhere near the best (and I had some genius friends), yet I somehow got into a Top 15 school (not Michigan). I think that was mostly because I actually enjoyed learning and doing well (I'm very competitive).
Because I was sure that everybody at college would be smarter than me, I basically overcompensated by working super hard. After awhile, it just became habit, and I graduated with high marks...helping me to get into Michigan Law.
Why do you ask?
EDIT: If it's because you have teenage kids....I don't know. Trade them in for a nerd?
Yeah there is no replacement for busting ass. OTOH, unless you're going to go full tiger parent, that ass-busting motivation has got to be internal. I coasted through high school and college by being a much better natural writer than average, and by being a generally attentive and a good "classroom student." Caught up with me when I failed stats.
I admire the hell out of people who tried their hardest in high school and undergrad. Takes a degree of self-belief and self-confidence that I didn't have until well into my 20s -- coasting was a defense mechanism for the insecure, at least in my case. Made it easy to tell myself, "Oh, if I'd tried harder I could have gotten an A, no problem." But who knows? If I'd tried my hardest and gotten a B+ that would have been an accurate measure of my capacity. And it would have forced me to deal with the knowledge that my ceiling was lower than I hoped.
No, seriously, Michigan. Since I was in fourth grade, getting in to Michigan. Everything I did was to get in to Michigan. Have a goal, set the goal, work towards the goal. But I had to want it. It was good that my parents wanted it for me, but in the end, it was my goal.
my greatest accomplishment in my life was getting into and graduating michigan...
outside of kids and marraige and shit like that. Professionally being a wolverine is the greatest thing I have ever earned in my life and outside of a presidency or a peace prize I can't think of many things much better... seriously.
jdon