1464

June 26th, 2013 at 3:24 PM ^

I feel the polar opposite.  I really think that his level of paranoia over Lloyd talking to the 'wrong' people points to the fact that something else illegal was going on.  Maybe it is in reference to the original 2007 shooting?  Was Otis aware and ready to testify for money?

Babu

June 26th, 2013 at 3:30 PM ^

This is only speculation, but other posters have mentioned the rumor of pot dealings.  Perhaps Lloyd was boasting/dealing/arguing with the wrong people.

There are many reasons why a person murders someone else.  I'd say a couple thousand dollars or some drug jailtime is a petty reason to end someone's life.  (As if there could ever be a good reason).

Again - just speculation.  A sad story for everyone involved.

stephenrjking

June 26th, 2013 at 3:33 PM ^

I'll leave this here:

What has happened is terrible. It appears that Hernandez is at least an accomplice in an execution-style murder, and there's a good chance (based on charges) that he committed it himself. That is terrible and evil.

The fact that our rival's football coach, at a previous job, coached Hernandez years ago, is completely irrelevant, and using this situation to take a cheap shot at a rival is idiocy. That the first thing you think of when someone is charged with murder is, "ooh, our football rival's coach once coached him, this is a chance to take a cheap shot" says a whole lot more about you than it says about Urban Meyer. This is the sort of thing that, were we to see it from a Sparty, we would consider it an embarassment to their fanbase. RCMB stuff.

We have plenty of time to take shots at our rival elsewhere. This is not the context for it.

 

1464

June 26th, 2013 at 3:51 PM ^

I agree, with a minor stipulation.  Many times there have been people who have been steered wrong in life, but then found a voice of reason in a role model that has turned them around and made good people out of them.  Being in your position, you yourself have likely done so to innumerable amounts of children.

Now Urban Meyer is in no way culpable for this, but he obviously was not that person in Hernandez's life.  I'm not sure even a guy like Hoke would bat 1.000 in turning kids around, but the perception is that Hoke is a role model first, and a football coach second.  Meyer exudes a characteristic of being a businessman in charge of a football franchise, not a moral compass.  He blew off his family to the point that they made him sign a contract prior to coaching again.  His hometown newspaper branded his team's defense lawyer as the team MVP due to how many of his kids were arrested at Florida. 

Is it Urban Meyer's job to make sure kids stay out of trouble?  No.  They're all adults.  But he does not embrace the father figure role like coaches at other schools.  He coaches football, not life.  You get the feeling that he cares more about performance on the field than problems off the field.  Meyer has absolutely no wrongdoing in this case.  But if I were to pick a coach for my child, it would not be Meyer.

All that said, using this instance to prove the point does diminish the events at hand, and was absolutely a cheap shot.
 

1464

June 26th, 2013 at 4:04 PM ^

The TL:DR of my above post:

Urban was in no way responsible.  He had absolutely no responsibility for this.  However he, as well as everyone else in Hernandez's life, was not the one to stop this.  When I picture the truly great coaches, I picture a guy who not only shapes a player, but also shapes a life.  College kids may be adults, but they're really still kids at that point.

stephenrjking

June 26th, 2013 at 4:20 PM ^

I don't know if this is an argument worth having here, but anyway:

1. I don't have any strong information on whether or not Urban spends time as a "mentor" to his players relative to how other coaches invest in their players. My impression is that all coaches do some of that, but are limited by the size of their team.

2. Hernandez's activities do not imply that Urban either abdicated that role or performed poorly in it; some people either resist mentoring they receive, ignore it, or turn to old or worse behaviors upon their departure from the relationship. It's not hard to see that in former Michigan players; we all loved Braylon in his Michigan uniform, but he has not infrequently said or done embarrassing things in his time since leaving the program. He was coached by Lloyd, a person who by all accounts is exactly the sort of mentor you describe.

In similar fashion, Bo did not guide Rick Leach to get into trouble, nor did he teach Jim Harbaugh to call out Michigan for its academics. But those things happened. You can find skeletons like this in the closet of every major coach in sports. 

1464

June 26th, 2013 at 4:40 PM ^

I don't think it is an argument, so much as a minor variation on how we see the picture as a whole.  We both agreed that Meyer has no culpability in this.  We both agreed that some kids will simply refuse to be helped.  The distinction we draw is whether this reinforces the public perception of Urban Meyer. 

You say no, which is the much more gracious and judicious way of handling the situation.  Knowing the tiny bit of background on you that I do, you've been conditioned to be a very tolerant person, which is commendable. 

I've never liked Meyer.  At all.  I would never get myself into a situation where I had to sign a contract to see my family.  They are the most important thing in my life.  I see a guy like Urban Meyer, and I feel like his values run counter to mine, and I don't like him for it.  I realize that my dislike for him paints the picture for me, and probably puts you in the position of being on the right side of this.

That being said, the public perception of Urban Meyer as being kind of cold and slimey is not unfounded.  There are several factors that contribute to this.  I don't see this situation as something new to use against Urban, but I do see it as highlighting one of his missteps.  That being the high rate of arrests while he was the coach at Florida.

Blue in Yarmouth

June 27th, 2013 at 9:40 AM ^

I don't know why you're getting negged for this sentiment, but I feel you captured my thoughts far better than the previous poster with which you are responding.

To say the fact that Urban being his coach during some prettty influential years of his life is irrelevant is pretty strong language. Did Urban play a major role in getting this young man murdered? Hell no. Is it in any way his fault? Absolutely not.

But let's not forget that AH is only 3 years removed from college where he spent 4 years under the care and tutelage of Urban Meyer. To say that relationship is irrelevent is probably not accurate. Is there a causal relationship between his time with Urban and this murder? Hell no. But could there have been something that happened within that relationship or during his time at Florida that could help explain how AH got to this point in his life? I would say there is a good chance there is.

I mean, don't get me wrong, people BLAMING Urban for this are being ridiculous, but I don't think it is any less ridiculous to try and pretend that his time with Urban at Florida didn't help in shaping him into the person he is today (just 3 years later). Is it rare to hear athletes say that their head coaches have had a profound impact on their lives? 

Maybe Urbans impact on the kid was a good one and was the only thing that has kept him out of jail this long, who knows. But to say the fact that he coached the kid for 4 years when the kid was between 18-22 is irrelevent is selling the coach/player relationship a little short I think.

That's just MHE though, people can neg me to Bolivian now.

goblue20111

June 27th, 2013 at 9:58 AM ^

Hernandez is from a bad area and after his stardom, he did not get rid of those negative influences and continued to hang around them.  Hernandez was 3 years removed from college--he's a grown man and made his own choices. No one forced him to hang out with that crowd.  We don't know how much influence Meyer had on his life.  This speculation and he could have done more stuff is stupid and petty.

Blue in Yarmouth

June 27th, 2013 at 3:29 PM ^

but unless my post says nothing like I intended, I didn`t blame Meyer for anything. I simply said that to say Meyer`s influence on the kid is irrelevent is underselling it a bit. I didn`t say whether I thought that influence was a good influence or a bad one, just that it would be pretty hard for a coach not to have SOME kind of influence on a kid of that age.

Also, the whole ``3 years removed thing`...I`d say that is a pretty short time. I have had people in my life whose influence is still with me 30 years later (again, good or bad).

To close I will repeat I didn`t blame Meyer in anyway and I`m really having a hard time figuring out how you got that from my post. Maybe you just didn`t read my post or maybe our comprehension is on different levels, but that wasn`t what was said.

Babu

June 26th, 2013 at 3:53 PM ^

The reason someone to commit murder is, without a doubt, highly contextual and multifactorial in origin.  When a tragedy like this happens it's common for witnesses to search for meaning.  Especially, in the face of a senseless crime.

To dismiss the possible effect UF's football culture had on Hernandez is, I think, to dismiss - in part - the reason why Hernandez is a suspect.

Now, to say "lulz Urbz clearly made him a murderer" is in poor taste.  But to question what makes someone a possible murderer isn't.  I object to the style of the previous quote, but not the substance.

Cope

June 26th, 2013 at 8:59 PM ^

My wife was a Florida student and regularly saw the football players. She's had study group wi Tebow, chatted with Chas Henry at bars, and watched Hernandez bowl, for a frame of reference, among many other interactions. So Urban player arrest record aside and all that...we've all heard it--she said the one guy who really seemed different from the others was Hernandez. He was always a thug, rough, and the rep from the student body was he was not a nice guy to people, either. She said the Pouncys were really nice; Hernandez was a jerk and singled himself in comparison to the rest as such.

EZMIKEP

June 26th, 2013 at 4:16 PM ^

Kids are molded by peers, parents and mentors. Maybe it isn't cool to put the onus on Urban, but considering his track record at Florida he sure didn't help the situation.

It's obvious that rivalry bias aside Urban Meyer is not a great person. Winning and his own self satisfaction are the top priorities. It's very well possible that whatever troubled past Aaron came from that with a little guidance might have changed his life's direction.

Take Dantonio for example. Had he not let a kid who had been locked away for 6 months get directly back on the field the minute he was released it is very possible Glenn Winston learns a little from his mistake and doesn't repeat it.

We aren't a Sparty or OSU board but at the same time the examples set by the staffs that have been in charge of those programs have left a very stained and non respectable image for everyone to see and therefore when stuff like this happens people look back and question what if when you were a part of that past.

Not that its always accurate but if the shoe fits the general public is gonna make you wear it.

Jon06

June 26th, 2013 at 3:56 PM ^

I'm no stranger to being a dick to dopes on the internet, but the guy already apologized and "may" isn't exactly one of the stronger evidential markers in the language. Can't we confine all the unnecessary hostility to one thread where I'll be mean to random people and keep it "go blue" in the others?

Edit: Never mind. I see he's courting downvotes on this thread.

kevin holt

June 26th, 2013 at 9:04 PM ^

The elements of murder don't include the facts leading up to the killing in that way. I doubt the reason matters. Even if so, being across a state line when premedidating the murder doesn't automatically bump it to a federal crime.

Then, even if it is federal, he will likely face the same consequences. I guess it's possible he could face the death penalty... I haven't taken criminal procedure, so I'm not sure. Then, federal courts may be less defendant-friendly, depending on the state. So I guess it makes a difference, but I doubt a major one.

quiverfull

June 27th, 2013 at 8:07 AM ^

much less defendant friendly, but it is unlikely to be a fed case despite the media play in this case. 

homicide is the unlawful killing of another human being.   go to the mental state of the killer to determine degree.  if premeditated and deliberate, it's a first degree murder (a 'first' in shorthand).   if it wasn't premeditated, but there is no mitigation of the killer's mental state then it's a second.   if killer acted under the heat of passion or under some of the imperfect self-defense laws, it's a voluntary manslaughter (a 'vol');  if done with gross negligence it is usually an involuntary manslaughter (and 'invol'). 

with a big 'if' regarding the reported facts of that article, if the facts are true then this is a 'first'.  further, and again assuming the reported facts are true, hernandez is toast.   each state has it's own laws about permitting the death penalty - for instance here in michigan it was outlawed in the 1800's.  

goblue20111

June 27th, 2013 at 10:56 AM ^

They can make anything federal they want. It's just a matter of much the US Attorney wants to make a point of it. I'm reading this from a case this morning: (4) ammuniation, all of which were manufactured outside the state of XYZ, and thus traveled in interstate commerce, in violation of Title 18 of the.....Here, the US Attorney wants to make a point of prosecuting gun crimes. I could see them maybe trying to take the gun charges but probably not. In all likelihood, if he cops a plea to the murder and saves them the headache of a trial, the gun charges will probably be dropped or reduced.

Greatgig

June 26th, 2013 at 3:03 PM ^

I agree, it is a shame.  However, from what I see, he has a history of making bad choices.  At some point 'bad choices' turn into a lifestyle that is is bound to have real consequences.  My prayers are with the family of the slain man.  Am waiting to hear what Mr. Hernandez has to say to them.