O.T. 71st Anniversary of D-Day

Submitted by redwhiteandMGOBLUE on June 6th, 2015 at 12:00 AM

Thanking all ally nations for the commitment and sacrifices made 71 years ago today. May we always remember D-Day, the start of the end of Hitler's reign of terror.

Comments

SalvatoreQuattro

June 6th, 2015 at 12:10 AM ^

By June of 44' the war had already turned decisively against Nazi Germany. The tidal wave of humanity called the Red Army was grinding the 200 German divisions into dust as the Allies were landing along the Normandy coast.

 

 

Yostbound and Down

June 6th, 2015 at 12:22 AM ^

I tend to agree...but if against the odds the Germans had taken Moscow and Leningrad cleanly, I don't think it would have played out the same. Likely some sort of coup or revolt towards Stalin to force him to sue for peace, even with the NKVD as strong as it was.

But yes, monumentally stupid military decision for Hitler to do it. If we didn't go right around to hating the Russians in the Cold War I don't think their sacrifice would be so easily forgotten.

SalvatoreQuattro

June 6th, 2015 at 12:29 AM ^

Lack of men plus they were hundreds of miles ahead of their supplies line. Meanwhile the Russians were forming amries in the far eastern reaches of Russia(where they also moved their factories). As Napoleon showed  taking Moscow is not a guarantee that you will defeat Russia. Russia is so vast, so widely spread out that it would take a country the size of China to successully invade and occupy it. The Germans bit off more than they could chew.

A revolt against Stalin? That was as likely as Japan beating the US in a sustained conflict.

MGoOhNo

June 6th, 2015 at 2:10 AM ^

In the immoral words of les grossman... Literally, take a step back and fuck your own face. To compare the sacrifice at Normandy, driven by leaders who sold life dearly, to Lenin who would grind any grist the mill would bear, is not only ridiculous, but a complete lack of understanding of the conflict as a whole. The mistake Hitler made was fighting a two front war. Absent the dear price paid at Normandy, Hitler likely rules Russia. Throwing 20MM in human waves against German invaders takes less than courage. It's clear you've never stood on the beaches of Normandy to understand that which you claim to understand.

Sports

June 6th, 2015 at 10:21 AM ^

If you're honoring lives lost in the face of extreme nationalism today, maybe take a step back and recognize that many people lost their lives, not just Americans, and that they all deserve remembrance. Numerically, the Soviets suffered far greater losses. This in no way diminishes American sacrifices. It's a complementary statistic.

Also, for the record, Lenin was long dead by the time these events happened. Stalin was in charge... If you're going to make sweeping, jingoistic statements, please at least attempt to construct a reasonable historical framework around them. They're boring otherwise.

MGoOhNo

June 6th, 2015 at 8:54 PM ^

Hitler's foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop listed three main reasons for Germany's defeat:

Unexpectedly stubborn resistance from the Soviet Union

The large-scale supply of arms and equipment from the US to the Soviet Union, under the lend-lease agreement

The success of the Western Allies in the struggle for air supremacy.

So you and the casual reading crew believing new "edgy" books and articles written to capture headlines by challenging Hollywood notions of 'murica wins, know much more than, you know, guys who lived it and were on the losing end of the war - clearly they were western sympathizers post war.

MGoOhNo

June 6th, 2015 at 8:44 PM ^

To the very last, even when better weapons, hard-won lessons, and the preponderance of forces offered opportunities for tactical innovation, the leaders of the Red Army remained as careless with the lives of their own soldiers as they were with those of the enemy. Arguably Leningrad, Sevastapol, the Moscow campaign and the battle for Stalingrad were desperate battles where the only choice was to win by bloody attrition. To suggest that the Red Army was in such straits as it prepared to launch the final battle for Berlin in 1945, though, is ludicrous. Yet Zhukov, who remains the most venerated Soviet commander of the War, turned Seelow Heights between the Polish Frontier and Berlin into a meat grinder, and the last two weeks of the war cost the Red Army a quarter of a million lives. It is, perhaps, as much a testament to the heavy hand of the Stavka as to the hard-headedness of Soviet commanders that a revolution in battlefield doctrine would have been seen as a counterrevolutionary act. The average Soviet soldier paid the price for such orthodoxy in blood, right up to the moment of German capitulation.

GoBLUinTX

June 6th, 2015 at 9:37 AM ^

You're probably correct, though we can never know what would have happened.  If the western allies concluded that there would be no invasion of northern Europe it probably follows they didn't think the war worth fighting.  If the war wasn't worth fighting that frees up tremendous German resources that can be directed eastward.  

If a war against Germany wasn't worth fighting maybe some of those German physists in the US, now without a Manhattan Project* to direct their minds, are recruited by Germany.  They show the Germans the error of their nuclear weapon program and it is Germany that first develops "The Bomb."   See how we can play these "what if" games?

*Manhattan Project was a response to Nazi Germany and their atomic weapon program, not Japan.

 

B-Nut-GoBlue

June 6th, 2015 at 3:08 AM ^

Are you fucking stupid or just plain dumb? Don't question Quattro's military history knowledge. Everything stated here is pretty much fact. We as Americans like to pretend we made a HUGE difference in that war but it was nothing compared to how huge the Soviets impact was. They won the war; in a very sad way, but Hitler was doomed once he engaged the way he did with Stalin and Mother Russia and all her terror.

All that stated, a HUUUUUGE appreciation for those that served and those that were in and around D-Day.

Lionsfan

June 6th, 2015 at 4:09 AM ^

And without American and British soldiers fighting in Africa/Italy, then the entire German army would have been focused on the Eastern Front. And the full German Army > the full Russian Army

I never understand the dick measuring that WWII brings out. There's a reason that the U.S., USSR, and Great Britain all allied up. Because winning the war was a cooperative effort, and without all 3 countries working together (and along with the French/Polish resistance), Hitler and the Axis wouldn't have been defeated

Bando Calrissian

June 6th, 2015 at 4:22 AM ^

I don't disagree in theory, but it's also fundamentally true that American soldiers got to go home to places that looked essentially identical to those they left behind (wartime economy and all), while Europeans went home to essentially 25 years of rebuilding. Britain was still rationing for another decade! American cities weren't leveled to the ground. Our roads weren't destroyed. Our industry wasn't decimated--in fact, the war helped our industrial economy for decades to come. You could make the argument that parts of Europe are still rebuilding in one way or another 70 years later.

And to echo the other comments, speaking as someone who had relatives who fought for the Soviet and American sides, I tend to think the Cold War has made Americas tone deaf to considering the sacrifices Soviet citizens made during the war. They were doing things like moving factories brick by brick (literally) to move industry farther behind the front. People were dying carrying other people to be buried. There were instances of absolutely horrific famine, disease, and make-ends-meet sacrifice that make the American Great Depression look like a Thanksgiving feast. There's a reason 90 year old people in Russia still squeeze into their uniforms and parade down the street--those people gave everything during the war. They don't call it the Great Patriotic War for nothing.

Lionsfan

June 6th, 2015 at 4:33 AM ^

That's true, and I don't mean to downplay the amount of sacrifices the Soviet people made. Sometimes it just seems that in an effort to avoid the "America!!! We saved the World and invented freedom!!!" Thought process that we had during the Cold War, people swing wayyyy the other way.

M-Dog

June 6th, 2015 at 11:45 AM ^

Thank you.  Let's not play Left Ditch vs. Right Ditch here.

The role the Russians played in defeating Hitler is way understated in this country.  That should be corrected.

But the way to correct in is not to inaccurately belittle the role of the US, and also Britain.  The US fought and won a war on two fronts, supplied all the allies, and won total air superiority every where they fought.  The contribution of the US was indeed "huge".

 

 

BlueCube

June 6th, 2015 at 9:40 AM ^

and you and others seem to be saying it can't happen because American's who fought didn't suffer as much as the Russians or weren't really necessary. Tell that to the guys who were in miserable weather dodging bullets and to  the family that has to deal with the grief when they didn't dodge fast enough. No one suffered more than those in the concentration camps. How is any of this relevant other than it was a team effort that ended the war and as Americans we honor those who fought for us.

This isn't a contest. It's about joining together to stop a lunatic who wanted to control the world and honoring those who stopped it. Turning it into a thread of "They really didn't win it" or "They didn't sacrifice as much as someone else" is bullshit done by people who never had to be in that position. I was fortunate enough not to have to fight because of the sacrifices of these men and for that I'm very grateful. Many people of many different nationalities gathered together to put the country in a position where I could say that and I'm grateful for all of them  and very proud of the Americans who served a very important part of it and it starts with those who did what seemed impossible by battling on the shores of Normandy.

And regardless how you determine the ultimate end if the USA didn't go in, the US didn't have to go in and did which ended the war much sooner and saved the world from years of additional war and helped free millions of people from the Nazi's much sooner than it would have otherwise happened. That can't be denied.

 

Boom Goes the …

June 6th, 2015 at 7:30 AM ^

over 80% of Germany's casualties were sustained on the Eastern front, so that should tell you the Russians got the Nazi's best shot despite being at war with Britain, USA etc. My 2 cents are that Germany could no longer win the war with the goals Hitler had in mind once he failed to take Moscow in 1941.  The defeat at Stalingrad meant Germany would lose the war, and the defeat at Kursk guaranteed total defeat.  By July 1943 the end was a matter of when not if

B-Nut-GoBlue

June 6th, 2015 at 3:03 AM ^

I'm with you on this. But also go 'Merica and seriously, much appreciation toward those involved with D-Day. I can't imagine having to storm one of those beaches 71 years ago; my stomach sinks and I lose train of thought whenever my brain begins pondering days of war, such as the mindset of a 19 year old jumping off a boat to "certain" death.

Danwillhor

June 6th, 2015 at 5:00 AM ^

American steel, British secret intelligence & Russian blood. I have nothing but a tear, heart pounding reverence for the D-Day landings but the successful invasion of Normandy let the German generals know deep down that it was over for sure & only a matter of time. Why? Because the invasion of Russia will go down as quite possibly the the dumbest (lucky for us) decision in modern military history. Add to that the fact that Hitler declared war on US (!) when we'd have likely waited until Japan was defeated to move into Europe, Italy & Africa and you have the epitome of a military moron. Germany had a personality cult where even military schooled generals would keep shut when given orders they knew were insane. Many generals didn't disobey orders from Hitler until the Soviets were in Berlin (some not even then). Take nothing away from the landings as I tear up just looking at pictures of the landings and the monuments, graves, etc. Yet, if Russia somehow hypothetically had no reason to enter the war...and they didn't...let's just say that their losses would have come from somewhere and they had more losses than the other allies had soldiers combined. You can recognize that and still be a patriotic American. It's basic history.

DonAZ

June 6th, 2015 at 9:15 AM ^

Because the invasion of Russia will go down as quite possibly the the dumbest (lucky for us) decision in modern military history.

Germany had Russia on the ropes late in 1941.  Germany might well have defeated Russia that fall and changed the eventual course of history.  Many in the UK and the USA thought that was the likely outcome.

Germany's fatal mistake was delaying Operation Barbarossa until June 22nd.  It was originally scheduled to launch in early May.  Had Germany not delayed, they very likely would have achieved their military objectives before the onset of winter.

Blame the Italians, who had botched their invasion of Greece, which brought Britian into Greece (itself a mistake, for it divided Britian's already meager resources in Egypt and eastern Africa, allowing Rommel to make his advances and threaten the Suez), which triggered Hitler's decision to delay Barbarossa until he'd secured his southern flank.

Danwillhor

June 6th, 2015 at 3:38 PM ^

No. Just no. There are 365 days a year and Russia is Russia. The modern American military would be hard pressed to ride their way far enough into Russia before winter lol. Yet, that's the thing! The further you march/ride in the longer they can wait. Could Germany have won on the Eastern front? Yes. Could they have done it with their forces at the time with the allies they had (let alone...alone)? It's laughable. Respectfully. You can't win a land war in Russia. OB was the dumbest military decision of the 20th century and many of us wouldn't be here to debate (respectfully) if those forces were allowed to focus on other fronts. They're was zero tactical advantage of invading Russia at the time. Thankfully, Hitler was a military moron that had final say.

DonAZ

June 6th, 2015 at 6:33 PM ^

There was zero tactical advantage of invading Russia at the time.

Oil.  Germany needed it; Russia had it.

Barbarossa is viewed as a blunder only in retrospect.  Late in 1941 many in the UK and the US thought it likely Russia would lose.  The prospect of that -- remember, this would have been prior to US entry after Pearl Harbor -- would have been catastrophic to Britian. 

Germany came very close to pulling it off.  Very close.

But those are differences in opinion between you and me.  We can't prove anything in the dim light of 74 years of history.

 

M-Dog

June 6th, 2015 at 11:56 AM ^

You have a good point.  Instead of belittling the US sacrifices on D-Day, let the history hall-monitors post their own WWII Russian appreciation thread. 
 
I get that the OP "started it" by saying incorrectly that D-Day was "the start of the end of Hitler's reign of terror."  But to correct that, some people are going way overboard the other direction.
 

 

M-Dog

June 6th, 2015 at 12:24 PM ^

You did.

"but it's also fundamentally true that American soldiers got to go home to places that looked essentially identical to those they left behind (wartime economy and all), while Europeans went home to essentially 25 years of rebuilding. Britain was still rationing for anotherdecade! American cities weren't leveled to the ground. Our roads weren't destroyed. Our industry wasn't decimated--in fact, the war helped our industrial economy for decades to come. You could make the argument that parts of Europe are still rebuilding in one way or another 70 years later."

As if to make it sound like it was all just a cakewalk for the US. 

There were a lot of very painful sacrifices in this country, independent of your "measuring stick" of the sacrifices of other countries.

It's OK.  We can acknowledge the sacrifices and accomplishments of events like D-Day without people coming out of the woodwork and giving their "Other countries suffered way more, so therefore your suffering doesn't count" speech.   

Feel free to start your own Eurpoean WWII suffering thread if you feel you need to.