OMG WOW WTF
So, Antonio Kinard just signed yesterday and like, WTF? For starters, he's not even rated! OMG. I mean, are we seriously just going to sign anyone? WTF. I personally cannot stand when RR just gives out scholarships. I mean, really, is he running a charity case here? Our scholarships aren't just any ordinary scholarship, they should only be given to the prospects who are 5 stars or in the rivals 100 as of today, March 15th. No question about it.
I am just fed up with RR and his recruiting tactics! Does he not have a subscription to rivals? Anyways, I am just so annoyed with RR and staff b/c of this that I felt compelled to share it with all my closest friends on mgoblog.
Technically he didn't "sign yesterday". He verballed, which can easily be broken. These players can't sign for another 11 months.
I know you are just mocking the whiners, but what is funny is that if this not yet rated player becomes a decommitment in the meantime, the same people who complained about the player verballing will then complain about RR and his decommitments...
I am still upset that we signed 3 star Braylon Edwards and 3 star Mike Hart. It screwed up those 2 years of recruiting rankings.
It's been pointed out so many times that it's obnoxious, but, as Brian states in his recruiting philosophy:
Don't be that guy on the message board saying "recruiting doesn't matter because Kelly Baraka." A sample size of one is not statistically significant. That's akin to saying "you don't want the first pick in the draft because Aundray Bruce sucked." (The reason you don't want the first pick in the draft is because that means your team sucked.) Recruiting rankings are important, and though there are good reasons why they are not all-important, going blah blah blah about how it doesn't matter because of ANECDOTE 1 and ANECDOTE 2 is demonstrably incorrect.
More importantly, it is very annoying.
"David Harris", "Mike Hart", and "Braylon Edwards" don't mean recruiting rankings don't matter.
What about Will Barringer, Tom Berishaj, Mark Bihl, Kevin Murphy, Brain Thompson, Anton Campbell, Pat Sharrow, Roger Allison, Keston Cheatham, Jeremy Ciulla, Grant DeBenedictis, Charles Stewart, John Thompson, Marques Walton, Andre Criswell, Jason Forcier, Tim McAvoy, Chris McLaurin, Chris Richard, LaTerryal Savoy, Johnny Sears, Mister Simpson, Greg Banks, David Cone, Quintin Patilla, Quinton Woods, Zion Babb, Artis Chambers, Marrell Evans, Vince Helmuth, Brandon Herron, Avery Horn, Mark Huyge, James Rogers, Renaldo Saggesse, Steve Watson, and Troy Woolfolk?
I swear to god, everytime someones says "Mike Hart", I'm cutting and pasting that fucking list.
Further, Turbo - I know you're joking. But can't you understand people getting more excited about Will Campbell or Justin Turner than a three-star? (Note: I know nothing about this kid, or where he'll be ranked). People getting upset is dumb, I agree, but this is a kid without a reported offer from anyone else (according to both Rivals and Scout) and falls outside of the top 250. Clearly, neither of those facts means he'll be bad, but it is, IMO, indicative of less general excitement about him. So, right now, this commitment gets a shrug from me.
March 15th, 2009 at 10:41 AM ^
Calm down and take your pills so that you won't jump to conclusions.
I didn't say rankings had no value. I'll take a 5 star over a 3 star anyday. Yet, I won't complain about a probable (Kinard isn't even rated yet) 3 star getting offered that the coaches have seen perform in person and offered on the spot whether its Braylon or Kinard.
RichRod has been an outstanding recruiter at UofM so far and his 2010 class is shaping up very nicely so far.
Furthermore, Turbo is not complaining about beople getting more excited about a 5 star over a 3 star as you say. Turbo is ripping on the negativity by some when we sign a 3 star. Why get so upset over a 3 star player getting offered? People need to trust RichRod who has done a great job recruiting thus far, especially when him and his staff have seen the player in person and know exactly what they want for their system. Furthermore, we are not on the same level as USC with the warm weather and top notch season after season, so we can't expect to pull in similar classes yet.
March 15th, 2009 at 10:48 AM ^
Yeah, I understand why fans will be more excited about a Will Campbell than say an Adrian Witty. However, it's just so damn early in the process. What if Ricardo Clark in the next 11 months becomes a 3 star recruit and D.J. Williamson or Antonio Kinnard become 5 star recruits. How would that change our perceptions?
Would you see the same fans who are upset that we signed a guy who isn't in the rivals 250 in March raving about how he is now a 5 star talent and that securing his commitment was simply outstanding? And further would there be reduced support for a recruit that does fall in the ratings? It's just dumb to me how so many fans get so emotional in this recruiting process particularly when the current cycle is far from being finished.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:21 AM ^
speaking like this is easily the most annoying thing that Mel Kiper has introduced to sports linguistics. "You're talking about adding A Matthew Stafford or A Mark Sanchez...."
Who talks like this?
"I'm thinking about going on vacation either to a Cancun or a Daytona Beach for spring break this year."
A little quibble point, and I recognize this is a non-issue given other problems in the world, but it's an unnecessary way to talk or write and I am disgusted that Mel Kiper can have such an influence over diction.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:28 AM ^
haha i agree but it was in response to a post that had many names in it.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:30 AM ^
....I was not offended at your post and I understand why you did it. I really don't like Kiper and his long-windedness. I'm also sick of him pegging Stafford as a "must-pick" with the Lions so he's on my nerves lately.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:58 AM ^
It's ok, I've been out with an ankle for awhile now.
best thing from the Rod Marinelli pressers: the running joke from 971 about Dewayne White and how he "had a calf"
Hey who cares if Ricardo Clark becomes a 3 star, I just want Ricardo Miller to become a 5 star.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:18 AM ^
i hope this stupid debate can one day stop.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:24 AM ^
The stars are but one piece of the pie. I have full confidence that RR will re-create and surpass his West Virginia success with the high quality of recruits he is bringing in.
Mike Hart
Pat White was so bad, he actually owed Rivals stars when he was recruited. Then he became the greatest QB ever, and will probably be a first-round pick next month.
So, by analogy, Antonio Kinard is probably going to be be the best QB in our class.
you just wasted my time
March 15th, 2009 at 10:12 AM ^
I felt the sarcasm oozing off of the page Turbo. I also share your sentiments about evaluating talent. I have more confidence in what RR knows will work for his system than I do in a recruiting site placing generalities in their overall grading of a kid. I do see the need for them...well, purpose of them, I should say. They are more for us than coaching staffs around the country. I see your point as well, Chi. For every 3 star that is a stud, there are a host of others that lived down to their 3 star potential. And I am sure you can run down a litany of 5 and 4 stars as well. The point is, grading someone on potential is just that, it is on potential. These kids haven't played a down as seniors in highschool yet. Lets let that play out before we start going ballistic over who has said yes to becoming a Wolverine. And bottomline is most kids that accept offers to schools are going to be using their degree at the end of their collegiate careers, not their football skills. No one program puts entire teams into the league. So for now, enjoy the ride. Fwiw, the boy does have some speed and size to him. *shrugs* end of rant.
March 15th, 2009 at 10:15 AM ^
Lets let that play out before we start going ballistic over who has said yes to becoming a Wolverine.
This is basically it. I understand a lack of "excitement" over a lower-ranked player (note: I don't even know Kincaid is one), but getting upset about it is probably silly.
March 15th, 2009 at 10:22 AM ^
about a 6'4" 210 LB WR that also plays defense?
March 15th, 2009 at 10:32 AM ^
But I will have to hold on to and exercise the right to be excited whenever the Wolverines sign a prestiege recruit in football or basketball.
We have all heard coaches say that you never really know how good a class is until four years down the road, but being excited about recruits is part of being an ardent fan.
In a way, the internet has provided so much information that it may have taken some of the fun out of it. I can remember, for example, being excited about the Bodnar twins because I had a decent, quasi-inside source back then who thought they were great.
Nowadays, they wouldn't have gotten enough stars (maybe two or three) and everyone would know it, so there wouldn't be as much excitement there.
I guess, nowadays, it's only permissible to get excited about the "right" people.
March 15th, 2009 at 10:38 AM ^
IDK, MY BFF JILL?
March 15th, 2009 at 10:42 AM ^
SERIOUSLY RR WTF, I THOUGHT WE WERE ONLY RECRUITING WRS FOR YOUR NEW 10 WR FORMATION?!
March 15th, 2009 at 11:04 AM ^
Generally, 3-star types that are offered early, you just have to trust the coaches. It is when they are offered late in the process (like Andre Criswell or Mark Huyge or Pat Sharrow) that you have to question the commitment.
He has a nice build, can run well, and he appears to be a DE/OLB-type player that G Rob likes. He also is from the same school as Isiah Bell and Troussaint, so you know the coaches have heavily scouted him.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:35 AM ^
This isn't just directed to you, but why all the negativity about Mark Huyge? I think Chitownblue mentioned him above, too, and others have elsewhere.
So many people are down on this kid saying that his offer was questionable and that he's not contributing and blah blah blah...
The kid was a REDSHIRT FRESHMAN last year. How are you going to use a redshirt freshman offensive lineman as an example of bad recruiting? The same goes for Troy Woolfolk. He was a sophomore last year and he was stuck behind Morgan Trent, a three-year starter, and Donovan Warren, a 5-star recruit? Yeesh...at least give these kids a chance to play before you start saying that they weren't worth offering a scholarship or they've been failures or whatever.
Terrance Taylor didn't start immediately. He turned out okay.
Ditto Tim Jamison.
Ditto Brandon Graham.
Ditto Shawn Crable.
Ditto Leon Hall.
Ditto Tom Brady.
Etc.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:39 AM ^
agreed.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:48 AM ^
Leon Hall actually did start as a Freshman.
Look, I have no problem with Mark Huyge - I think you're nit-picking my overall point.
March 15th, 2009 at 12:00 PM ^
Leon Hall started three games as a freshman. I don't count that as starting immediately. Marell Evans started one or two games last year, but does that mean he's a returning starter this year? I don't think of it like that. Perry Dorrestein started one game, I think, but I wouldn't call him a returning starter, either.
I'm not nit-picking your overall point. I agree with you.
However, your list of counterpoints to the Mike Hart/Braylon Edwards meme includes:
"Marrell Evans, Vince Helmuth, Brandon Herron, Avery Horn, Mark Huyge, James Rogers, Renaldo Saggesse, Steve Watson, and Troy Woolfolk"
None of these guys has played more than two seasons of football, and Huyge, Watson, Horn, and Herron all redshirted as freshmen. Sagesse played DT as a true freshman and was stuck behind two seniors last year. These guys don't belong on your list of counterpoints.
March 15th, 2009 at 12:07 PM ^
Huyge was a MAC-level recruit we offered when we were missing out on our tackle prospects. He is never, ever mentioned by RR or any "insider" as potentially contributing, and unless injuries occur, he will not see the field. He is the David Cone of the offensive line. Schilling, Ortmann, Dorrestein, Onameh, and O'Neill are all ahead of him, and Lewan and Schofield will pass him next year. Bryant Nowicki, a walk-on, played over him this year.
Not to bash the kid, but that was a wasted offer by the old staff, and most everybody said it when it happened.
a) Huyge was mentioned by Rodriguez last year as competing for time at guard.
b) Huyge is a GUARD, so all those TACKLES you listed above don't mean shit when it comes to Huyge.
c) I won't fall into the trap of debunking your MAC-level recruit theory, but I could debunk it if I wanted to.
He was listed nowhere on the depth chart last year, and if he is a guard, he is behind Ferrara, Moosman, McAvoy and Barnum (just as he was last year). $1000 says he never starts for us, barring a lot of injuries, and does not get a 5th year.
Huyge was hurt and missed a couple weeks. He was the primary backup to Zirbel, but then both got hurt. If he was healthy, perhaps Ferrara wouldn't have moved in the first place.
I'm not saying he'll ever start. I just don't think we should be writing him off when most redshirt freshman offensive linemen don't play.
BTW, good comparison with Williamson to Tabb. I can totally see that.
Thanks.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:06 AM ^
I wonder if Kinard will eventually be moved to DE considering how tall he is.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:27 AM ^
At 6'4", 205, he seems like he'll be too big to play LB once he gets in a real S&C program.
March 15th, 2009 at 12:25 PM ^
the reports yesterday were that Anthony LaLota was doing a lot of work with the OLBs. and its not like he's got all 205 lbs of his body weight distributed properly. I'm sure they can figure out a way to move some of that around, add 20-30 lbs and have a 6'4" 235 lb linebacker. Sounds good to me.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:19 AM ^
He's a tweener. I'm guessing the services don't see him playing LB for a top school. His measurables look good, so the potential is there. How do you rate a player like that? I think they just default to 3-stars. Bulking up and a switch to DE should bring a 4th. It reminds me of Taylor Lewan's situation.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:36 AM ^
As was already pointed out, stars (or lack there of) a recruit is rated doesn't matter. They don't rate these guys based on how they fit there college destinations schemes. They rate them on technique, speed, ball skills and all that. Antonio kinard has the measurables as a JR to be a beast in the college game with a bit of training. Rich & Co know what there doing. Should I dare to bring up the great Mike Hart? 3 star running back out of highschool. Or Pat White? 2 star quarterback out of highschool. Rich Rodriguez and his staff can transform players into stars in college. I am not even a little worried or skepticle about who RR recruits.
Also wasn't Omameh a 2-3 star guy out of highschool? All I've heard is good things about him.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:39 AM ^
....chitown's post on this thread at 9:44 this morning, did you? Because you're probably going to get a cut and paste thrown at you for bringing up Mike Hart as a 3-star.....
March 15th, 2009 at 11:47 AM ^
What about Will Barringer, Tom Berishaj, Mark Bihl, Kevin Murphy, Brain Thompson, Anton Campbell, Pat Sharrow, Roger Allison, Keston Cheatham, Jeremy Ciulla, Grant DeBenedictis, Charles Stewart, John Thompson, Marques Walton, Andre Criswell, Jason Forcier, Tim McAvoy, Chris McLaurin, Chris Richard, LaTerryal Savoy, Johnny Sears, Mister Simpson, Greg Banks, David Cone, Quintin Patilla, Quinton Woods, Zion Babb, Artis Chambers, Marrell Evans, Vince Helmuth, Brandon Herron, Avery Horn, Mark Huyge, James Rogers, Renaldo Saggesse, Steve Watson, and Troy Woolfolk?
I swear to god, everytime someones says "Mike Hart", I'm cutting and pasting that fucking list.
March 15th, 2009 at 12:39 PM ^
"Mike Hart"
March 15th, 2009 at 12:43 PM ^
There is nothing more irritating than a "I am smarter than you all' arsehole who doesnt believe in recruiting but will religiously login to mgoblog where almost every thread is recruiting related.
If you really want to wait till the guy is on the field before judging him, then fucking go to mgoblue.com and look at his stats AFTER he joins the team. Stop coming here and putting forth retarded arguments like " But Jake Long....". Yes "but Jake Long", so what? What part of recruiting "projections" dont you understand? I bet these are the same morons that blindly believe the talking heads on CNBC and lose their shirt on the "hot stock" of the month.
March 15th, 2009 at 11:58 AM ^
If I had created this post I would've been called a fuckstick.
March 15th, 2009 at 12:01 PM ^
Agreed.
March 15th, 2009 at 12:13 PM ^
You are a fuckstick!!!!!!!! And you didn't even create the post.
March 15th, 2009 at 12:15 PM ^
rich rod knows what he's doing. i know this is overplayed in this blog but pat white was a three star athlete and now he's getting serious looks as an NFL qb. steve sloton was a three, and left for the pros as a junior. r.r. knows how to build something out of nothing. quit being arrogant and give rich rod a chance.
March 15th, 2009 at 12:40 PM ^
Isn't this all a bit subjective?
I mean, depending on your disposition, Chitown's list could be perceived as an indictment of the old staff just as easily as an endorsement with regard to Hart and Braylon.
Not to say that rankings don't matter, but a scout is going to compare a recruit to other recruits at the same position. A coach is going to assess a recruit's observed talent/potential against his particular gameplan. Coaches have certain schemes and specific players will fit better than others. Just a thought.
It could, but every program probably has a similarly long list of players that never contribute (or contribute poorly). It makes some sort of sense that our list of non-contributors are disproportionately lower ranked recruits.
Very true. And for the most part lower ranked guys who outperform expectations are still the exception rather than the rule.
Recruiting compared to NFL draft.
5 stars-1st round pick
4 stars-late 1st till 3rd/4th round
3 stars-4th-6th/7th round
2 stars-7th-UFA
There are first round picks that are busts as well as fourth round picks, but first round picks that succeed tend to become the best at their positions and pro bowlers.
Where did you get your recruiting versus NFL draft stats at?
Last Years NFL Draft
First Round of the 2008 NFL draft had
5 star - 5 players
4 star - 11 players
3 star - 6 players
2 star - 7 players
1 star - 0 players
0 star - 2 players
Stats according to Rivals...this wasn't an abnormal year. There is no reason to be down on RichRod for offering a 3 star he sees in person. We can't get all 4-5 stars at the moment.