Numbness to GameDay misogyny
While at a bar watching Gameday before the Cincinnati game, a female friend of mine commented on the requisite 'Ann Arbor is a whore' sign bobbing up and down in the background. As an 18 year old freshman male, I must confess I found these signs and t-shirts fairly funny, and figured Michigan must be doing something right to get so much attention. In turn, I bought a few of my own that jabbed at the usual suspects while en route to Michigan Stadium and Crisler, and was easily acculturated to yelling about how it was 'all their fault' at Yost.
As a 36 year old, I'm ashamed to say the misogynistic quality of that sign, though similar to several others each week televised on national television, was still lost on me. Male sporting events are no doubt a remaining bastion for easy bigotry and sexism, but they can also be a place for Michigan to lead by example. These signs, t-shirts, and chants aren't ironic, they're not witty, and here's hoping the next generation of Michigan Men and Women uphold a more advanced sense of social awareness than mine did. Perhaps we can listen more closely to the lyrics of another common ritual at every game and show how we really are the Leaders and Best.
September 11th, 2017 at 6:57 AM ^
September 11th, 2017 at 11:09 AM ^
It's really not that far a reach. The vast majority of men exhibit misogynist/sexist behavior, some of which is so ingrained in our culture that it might never get out. And as I said earlier, guys don't get to decide what's sexist and what isn't. To think that we do is misogyny in and of itself.
So let's be real: she's right.
September 11th, 2017 at 11:32 AM ^
September 11th, 2017 at 11:42 AM ^
September 11th, 2017 at 12:08 PM ^
It is.
September 11th, 2017 at 2:10 PM ^
September 11th, 2017 at 7:50 AM ^
September 11th, 2017 at 6:50 AM ^
Would you care to share some examples of the misogyny you've experienced here?
September 11th, 2017 at 7:30 AM ^
Dude... get real. Been reading this site for years, if you are going to act like we don't consistently act beneath the standards of "Michigan Men"-type expectations, you're nuts. Are most of us essentially innocent? Maybe, but I'd venture to guess all of us have let ourselves slip a bit on this site, as it's easy to do behind a computer screen. From words we toss around (including myself), to blatant shows of who is more macho (nearly every thread), it shouldn't a surprise that a female compatriot is pointing out misogyny on the site. It is what it is. Don't be offended (everyone else commenting), just keep an eye out on it and maybe do your part to make it a bit kinder around here. We don't need to use slut and whore and pussy if we're being real with ourselves. We are better than that. There are lots of words to use. I will be better.
September 11th, 2017 at 7:38 AM ^
And it most certainly is not most of what you described. Boorish youthful behavior? That may be true, but that is a much different criticism.
September 11th, 2017 at 7:39 AM ^
September 11th, 2017 at 8:55 AM ^
it shouldn't a surprise that a female compatriot is pointing out misogyny on the site.
The problem is, nobody has pointed out any misogyny on the site, only complained of it without giving the examples that were just asked for and which you wrote a large paragraph claiming are not necessary. A complaint without examples doesn't become immediately persuasive just because we know who made the complaint.
September 11th, 2017 at 10:49 AM ^
September 11th, 2017 at 3:36 PM ^
So, in my humble opinion, I think it's an overstatement to call this Board full of misogyny. But it exists. And, since you asked about examples, just yesterday I read a comment that criticized Ohio State players by calling them a bunch of girls. Calling the players girls was clearly meant to be an insult . It made me cringe a bit. But, it's also noteworthy that the comment stood out to me because I don't think this Board is full of similar comments.
September 11th, 2017 at 11:28 AM ^
I didn't say she is lying. I was only curious. I don't perceive this community as being all that sexist, but maybe there are things I'm not really paying attention to.
September 11th, 2017 at 7:35 AM ^
September 11th, 2017 at 9:38 AM ^
opinion or belief isn't misogyny.
September 11th, 2017 at 11:02 AM ^
You're not "disagreeing with a woman's opinion or belief." You're denying that her discussion of how she's oppressed is valid. That's called gaslighting. To assume you are allowed to have an opinion on whether a woman is legitimately oppressed is the height of misogyny.
She gets to tell you. Not the other way around.
September 11th, 2017 at 11:15 AM ^
That's not gaslighting at all. That's taking an actual nasty thing (real gaslighting) and defining it down so as to equate a difference of opinion with mental abuse.
Real gaslighting:
"There is so much misogyny on this site. People call other people 'bitch' all the time, it's hateful to women." "What are you talking about? Nobody ever says the word 'bitch' around here. You must be crazy for thinking so, or purposely making it up."
Not gaslighting:
"There is so much misogyny on this site. People call other people 'bitch' all the time, it's hateful to women." "Yes, that happens, but it's not misogyny because it's not intended to be offensive to women."
September 11th, 2017 at 11:23 AM ^
It doesn't *matter* that it's "not intended to be offensive to women." What matters isn't the intent, but the result. "Bitch" is a demeaning term. Period.
It's still gaslighting, but not as bad as your first example. It's more that the implication is "you're wrong because we didn't mean it. You're being too sensitive."
Again, and I can't stress this enough: Men. Cannot. Determine. What. Is. And. Isn't. Misogyny.
September 11th, 2017 at 11:41 AM ^
Do women get a say in what is and isn't misandry?
September 11th, 2017 at 11:52 AM ^
No, but men aren't hurt by misandry. We are the ruling class. Same reason racism doesn't apply to white people.
September 11th, 2017 at 11:58 AM ^
Really?
When fathers don't get equal custody of their children because of a court system that tilts heavily toward women, they're not hurt by misandry?
When two college students get drunk and hook up, and the male is later accused of rape while the female is celebrated for her courage in "speaking out", men aren't hurt by misandry?
When a man is physically or emotionally abused by a female partner, but can't hit back because he'll be hauled off to jail for domestic abuse, men aren't hurt by misandry?
I don't buy for one minute, and never will, this ruling class horseshit.
September 11th, 2017 at 12:05 PM ^
That's fine. But you're mistaken. And there are tons of stats to back it up.
September 11th, 2017 at 12:09 PM ^
Which part of that post was mistaken with stats to back it up?
And don't give me any "go do some research and learn about the world" stuff, you're the one making the statement, it's on you to provide the proof.
September 11th, 2017 at 12:33 PM ^
No problem:
1) Women are still making 80 cents on the dollar when compared to men.
2) The quantity of women in the sciences and in business is still dwarved by the number of men.
3) The number of women in Congress: 104. Men in Congress: 331.
4) Number of women governors: 6 out of 50.
5) Number of women in the room when determining the future of women's healthcare: 0
6) Out of every 1000 rapes, only 310 are reported. Compare that with 610/1000 robberies. 90% of adult rape victims are female.
7) This extends to academia, too: Women only hold 27% of university presidencies
8) 29% of American small biz owners are women.
These are just a few indicators. Do you think this is because fewer women want to be in politics? Do you think fewer women want to be in the sciences? Want to own a business?
September 11th, 2017 at 1:11 PM ^
I was expecting something more along the lines of refuting the individual bullet points, because that's what I thought you meant by mistaken. I trust those stand on their merits, then. Even in the best-case scenario for your argument, you're only showing there's more unfairness against women than against men, which is a completely different idea from no unfairness against men at all and a completely different idea from "men aren't hurt by misandry." The fact that a small business owner is more likely to be a man than a woman means nothing to a man who can't get equal time with his children in a divorce.
And yes, I actually do think many of the stats you cite have a strong influence from self-selection. There are zero physical barriers to a woman starting a business or choosing a STEM major; the only arguments along those lines are cultural.
September 11th, 2017 at 2:02 PM ^
Fair enough. This is not a conversation that's going to be solved in text. But here's the problem:
Your bullet points are a little problematic. Only 2-8% of rape allegations are untrue, so you're banking a lot on a pretty big minority. The vast majority of rape cases aren't "two drunk kids hooking up."
Also, the way out for abuse victims (as someone who was one, myself...) isn't hitting back, so that's kind of a logical fallacy.
Custody cases are accurate, though. And I don't have a solution for that. However, there's unfairness everywhere. Misandry isn't the cause of the custody battles—if anything, it's a sexist belief that women are more parental than men. So men are hurt by their own sexism.
And we agree about the cultural barriers. But what I'm talking about ARE the cultural barriers.
September 11th, 2017 at 5:14 PM ^
Your rape stats are a strawman. The problem is that it's automatically assumed that the boy raped the girl when you literally just pointed out that factually 2-8% of those cases are false. So are you advocating that we should jail innocent people to protect non-victims?
Ironic, my way out of abuse actually was to "hit back".
And victim blaming, there it is, you even threw in victim blaming.
September 11th, 2017 at 3:08 PM ^
There have been studies done, at UMich no less, that show that one of the reasons that women don't select STEM fields is that they are taught to accept these as masculine fields. A study by a psych professor at Michigan showed, for example, that girls are more likely to show an interest in STEM when presented with a female role model who fit traditional gender norms (say, conventionally pretty young Jane Goodall) than one who does not (say Sally Ride). So selection is not the be-all end-all that many want it to be, you have to consider the conditioning that takes place. Those selections are not made in vacuums.
September 11th, 2017 at 3:37 PM ^
Even if true, that isn't an indictment based on sexism, it's the result of societal norms which are gradually changing.
September 11th, 2017 at 3:44 PM ^
I mean, in the sense that societal norms are chaing away from overt sexism yeah
September 11th, 2017 at 1:44 PM ^
You take various random statistics, (including some that are incorrect) and assume that they are caused by "misogony" without understanding what that word means even though it has been properly defined for you several times.
I learned that more women than men are getting science degrees when I did some research on the disparate impact of a bill that would require a science degree for state workers in certain job classifications.
There are numerous reasons that the average compensation for a woman is less than the average compensation for a man. The reasons include: men work more overtime than women, men are more agressive in seeking salary increases, more men work in dangerous jobs, men take fewer career breaks. If you think that all salary disparities are caused by sexism, then you must believe Hillary Clinton is sexist since her Senate staff (where she had complete discretion in hirng) paid men more than women).
There are more men in Congress and in Governorships in large part because there are more male candidates than female candidates. In turn, that is because men are more interested in political campaigning than women. If you don't believe that just go to any grass roots organization's meeting and start counting. Guys who are in politics wish more women were interested.
Literally anyone can start a business. There are a lot of challenges involved in starting and running a business. I admire people who are willing to take it on but it's not something I want to do.
How sad for you that women have minds of their own and independence to make their own choices, despite what you think is best for them.
September 11th, 2017 at 12:45 PM ^
I understand the overall point you're making, but you're overgeneralizing. There are aspects of society in which boys/men may not necessarily treated fairly. One could argue that our school system is one, given that boys lag behind girls in most academic indicators, are punished more frequently (and severely), drop out more often, and attend college less frequently. Also (and perhaps not coincidentally) a disproportionate number of teachers are women, especially in the elementary years.
September 11th, 2017 at 12:53 PM ^
Boys lag behind girls, it's true. It's also documented that boys take more time to develop emotionally and intellectually. I agree there are issues, but to call those things "misandry" is a reach, especially because on a cultural level, men still hold the reins.
And you're correct: teachers, nurses, and those in the "helping" professions, generally speaking, are mostly women. However, I'm speaking in terms of positions of power within society. Helping professions were ideal vehicles for women to branch out into the professional world, so that's still held over from past eras.
September 11th, 2017 at 1:13 PM ^
If it's true that boys take more time to develop emotionally/intellectually (and I don't disagree with that statement), then we really should not be holding them to the same standards as girls. We should be educating them differently. At some point there will probably a lawsuit over this.
At the least, there needs to be more of an effort to hire male teachers in elementary school. I had zero male teachers there. My first male teacher was in the seventh grade. Looking back on it, that's crazy.
September 11th, 2017 at 1:18 PM ^
by how its richest, most capable members are doing (rather than at all economic levels), you can build up a false narrative for yourself that men rule women in a democratic society while women are the majority of voters.
September 11th, 2017 at 1:25 PM ^
a) I didn't do anything of the sort
b) I was merely making an observation
c) calm down
September 11th, 2017 at 11:33 AM ^
Some are reacting defensively in this thread because it was brought up, but I'm more curious about the "everyday" misogyny that I assume she is alluding to.
September 11th, 2017 at 9:44 AM ^
Most men don't realize that they are being that way, so maybe it will enlighten some folks. I'm not sure where Julesh is coming from, but I'm not effected by it. I've already been kicked off a message board standing up for the 90% of men who aren't assholes on this subject, so this is a delicate line I guess. It sucks that a vocal minority can ruin it for the rest and get us lumped in there. I guess lets touch on all the hits:
Questioning womens fandom: I don't see it on here, I mean you're an MGoBlogger. That's dedication. Furthermore I was taught my Michigan fandom from my grandma and grandpa. From my cousins grandparents. My entire life the women in my circles have been as big (and when it comes to the Red Wings, even bigger) as fans as the men.
Fandom motives: No I don't think MGoJen LOVES Tate/RichRod cause they are attractive. Furthermore, what is wrong with that if she did? The only reason I fell in love with soccer is because Mia Hamm and Brandi Chastain had me feeling some type of way when I was 9 yo.
Questioning knowledge: Again, you're on MGoBlog. To act like anyone one here is less knowledgeable than you when we all get our info from the same source is dumb.
Women in coaching/refereeing: Not brought up here enough to be able to label the entire blog as "full of misogynists." Also, it is dumb to think a woman shouldn't coach men based on gender alone. Also, we will take any improvement in refereeing we can. Gender, race, species. Someone HAS to be better than this current mess.
Kate Upton gifs, etc: This at best is a celebration of the beauty of all women. At worst it is crudely fulfilling the stereotype that men are easily distracted/entertained by a nice rack.
Vocabulary: Probably the worst, most common form on this board. Although MGoBlog seems to be one of the cleanest boards on the web. Most of this language needs to be cut out. Stick to the classics, fuck, shit, dammit, if you need to swear. Bitch, imo is a goes-both-ways word now. Just an extreme case of whining, complaining. At least twice a week the first thing out of my girlfriends mouth was so and so was being a bitch today and some of the time that's a woman and most of the time it's a guy. Slut, whore*(Ann Arbor is a Whore is not a Michigan T-shirt), etc. have no place in any conversation imo. Pussy, soft, etc. is normally directed at the players and honestly, 1/2 the guys on the team you are talking about are 300+ lbs and run a 40 yard dash faster than you. Think about what you say if those words are exiting your mouth. Also, these are college kids, cut them some slack! It's also a lot more fun to say "so and so did not bring enthusiasm unknown to mankind on that play" rather than "so and so hit like a girl"
At the end of the day, I think you can either be offended by language, or kinda brush it off. If someone calls a player soft (don't be that someone) as a woman, do you really think "ouch, that hurts my feelings" because soft is ultimately the feminate opposite to hard? Or do you do cross fit and that guy probably lives in his parents basement and the only thing soft here is his beer gut?
September 11th, 2017 at 10:12 AM ^
Aren't most heterosexual men distracted by a nice rack? Why do we try and deny this?
September 11th, 2017 at 7:15 AM ^
September 11th, 2017 at 7:21 AM ^
because of the lazy hot take you just threw.
Misogyny defined: "dislike of, contempt for, ingrained predjudice against women." Another lazy, incorrect use of a term, with little evidence beyond the usual Kate Upton pic post--which in itself is not misogyny either
September 11th, 2017 at 8:03 AM ^
Are idiots even aware that they're being idiots?
This board turned idiot really bad at some point in the Hoke -era I think.
You're 100% correct and I wish it was different, but again I don't even think they have the mental capacity to understand calling someone a "pussy" isn't ok.
September 11th, 2017 at 11:47 AM ^
I think people have complained that the board has become stupider pretty much from day two on. It's a recurring critique, this idea that things were better here in the past.
September 11th, 2017 at 12:49 PM ^
September 11th, 2017 at 8:52 AM ^
is that 86 people (at this point) have actually agreed that this board is "full of misogynists."
Also to date, not one single person has yet to valiate this charge with actual evidence.
September 11th, 2017 at 9:25 AM ^
To explain: if you call someone a pussy or a bitch or a sissy as a pejorative, it is insulting to women.
If you read this board and don't see that these types of things happen a lot then you must not be able to read. It happens very often now. There's your evidence. I don't think anyone actually needs to pull and link posts. It's all over.
If you want to get into the semantics of the word "full" then you are completely missing the point.
Point is it is happening here, a lot and it's disappointing.
You can have an opinion that is contrary, but you would be wrong.
September 11th, 2017 at 9:47 AM ^
Then this board is full of self-hating misandry, too, what with a whole bunch of people calling other people dicks. Willing to bet that's a lot more common than bitch, pussy, and sissy combined.
September 11th, 2017 at 10:11 AM ^
If you're a white man you don't get to be truly insulted... by anything.
I am actually trying to think of something that would genuinely insult me.
I get disappointed by people like me (a white man) trying to compare or justify their "pain" as some sort of attack on men. LOL. Even that doesn't "insult" me though. I live an almost absurdly privileged life. I've worked for things, sure, but to deny the fact that my starting line was waaaaaaay ahead of pretty much any other race, gender, creed, etc. in the entire world would make me look foolish. I try not to do that as often as I can.
You know that quality we all love in a football player? Being humble? Remember that one? That's what more white men should be. Stop trying to "protect" the privilege of white men by trying to act butthurt about someone being genuinely offended. The sad truth about this is that even when you do as I do - shake my head and agree that all of these things are problems - the mountain of white privilege will never be flattened. So you may as well just be disingenuous and actually agree with people being insulted by things you dont think should be insulting because nothing will change anyway.