ND Academics-Really?
I found this on an ND message board form someone who caims he was a former football player at ND. Being as EVERY ND fan crys about academics wanting to be in the same breath as Stanford and Northwestern I found it a good read:
Admissions for athletes is very different than from the rest of the student body. I know because I was a student athlete at ND and I know what the football player requirements were because I had heard from my fellow athlete friends who were on the football team. While I was recruited by my ND coach during my Senior year of high school and received a special ND application and was on "the list," I would have be admitted anyway with my GPA, SAT score and athletic accomplishments, I am glad that I had the help.
In terms of getting in as a football player, they needed to have a SAT score in the high 800s to mid 900s. They also needed to have Cs in their high school classes. There were not required classes that needed to be taken in high school like there are for normal ND admitted students. ND had classes for 0 credit that were there to get the football players (some basketball, etc on a need basis) to prepare them for the freshman course load. Some examples are math classes that fall below the most basic math class ND offers, Calculus. There were 0 credit Algebra II/ Trig classes and precalculus classes. Since they were for 0 credit, having them as course options didn't bring the overall academics difficulty down.
On top of this, football players took no more than 12 credits per semester (4 three credit classes), when the normal course load for a student was 15 credits or even 18 for the really aggressive ones (5 or 6 classes). All football players stayed during the summer, took summer school classes and trained. Summer classes are also notoriously easier. Many athletes took the more difficult required classes during the summer for this reason. Additionally, for certain mandatory classes that were more difficult that ALL students had to take, there were review sessions specifically organized by the coaches for the athletes to attend prior to exams. The best TAs taught them and basically reviewed everything that was pertinent to the exams, midterms and finals. Examples of these are freshman science, business major required economics, business major required accounting and business major required finance.
Certain sports had mandatory nightly study hall where they had to sit in a room and do their homework. They also had mandatory tutoring for anyone who needed it. Coaches received progress reports (sometimes as often as weekly to monitor their athletes performance in classes). There were also audits of the classes that the football players were in where someone from the athletic department would actually drop by the class, walk in and make sure the athlete was in attendance.
In addition to this, football players have counselors to help them pick their academic schedule of classes. They get first pick at all of the classes and if they don't get into a class they wanted, they can go into the registrar's office, tell them they are an athlete and they will be manually put into the class right then and there regardless of if the class is already full.
Many of these things are not just for football players, BUT FOR ALL STUDENT ATHLETES. This is for ALL sports. Certain sports with higher overall grade point averages do not have mandatory study hall, but all of these things to help the players succeed are there. I utilized many of these programs when I was in school there and I know that my overall GPA during the time I was on the team is higher because of it and would have been had I not participated in varsity sports.
Getting in is not hard for someone who the school is actively recruiting. Also, it is easier to fail out of ND as a freshman who just parties too much and doesn't want to go to class than it is for an athlete since there are so many mitigating controls in place to make sure that the athlete makes the grades to stay on the team and also to graduate.
Notre Dame DOES NOT NEED TO CHANGE THEIR ADMISSIONS POLICY. If they did, the kinds of athletes that would get in who were unable to be admitted before are those with a 4th grade reading level.
December 16th, 2009 at 4:13 PM ^
I guess..."kelly won't get his kind of player at ND" was just wishful thinking.
December 16th, 2009 at 4:15 PM ^
I can also attest that the rules are the same for all sports at ND, and that's not the case at Michigan. It's pretty much common knowledge that Michigan's revenue sports get some special treatment in regards to access to tutoring and class scheduling, etc. I tutored some athletes at Michigan, but only the non-revenue sports. I was tutoring an athlete who was a ND transfer, due to non-academic reasons, and they were pissed that they didn't get all the 'bonus' academic treatment that they got at ND (for example, having unlimited access to GSIs for tutoring). They also claimed that the tutors at ND had the exams beforehand, and "knew what to teach". I find that a bit suspect, but you never know. Anyway, this person had a low ACT/SAT, but pulled all A's during their time at ND, and were struggling to stay eligible at U of M. I drew my own conclusions.
There is no doubt that ND is a great school in general. There's also no doubt that ND loves all athletes, not just the money makers.
December 16th, 2009 at 4:19 PM ^
It has been more than ten years ago that I went over these issues with a guy who was involved in Michigan recruiting and also Michigan academics. But...
He didn't slander Notre Dame; what he showed me very simply was that on all sorts of dimensions, Notre Dame had some admissions and acadmeic criteria that were clearly harder than some Big Ten schools, but that all Big Ten schools had some other criteria that Notre Dame did not have to address at all.
The net effect of everything was that Notre Dame was not notably harder or easier, academically, than the average Big Ten school. The main message was to explode the myth that Notre Dame had clearly superior academic credentials to Big Ten student athletes. It was simply untrue.
Sure; on its worst day, Notre Dame's football academics is way above Florida State. But on its best day, it might not be in the same academic league as Northwestern.
December 16th, 2009 at 4:53 PM ^
My wife was asked to teach and counsel football players at Notre Dame when she was there (mid-90s). She loves ND football, but readily admits the kids were far behind the rest of the students. She claims there is no way they had the same admissions standards.
A lot of schools claim they have higher standards than others for admissions of football players. I find that hard to believe. I think any competitive or BCS school will take talent that qualifies under NCAA minimums. Schools would be stupid not to do that.
Rather than admit that, fans will acknowledge that the football players have an easier time than the regular student body, "but its still tougher than at other schools." And they offer zero evidence to back that up. It just sounds like some thing their school would do because of its committment to academics. Bull.
Finally, I am actually all in favor of the minimum NCAA standard being used by every BCS school. These kids have special and unique talent. That talent is just as important to their success as other talents. (Is it rarer to be a successful playright, actor or artist... or professional athelte. I want UM taking the best actors and artists for its performing/fine arts programs.) Plus, recruiting levels are not equal if your school adds additional requirements.
December 16th, 2009 at 7:25 PM ^
You need evidence? take a look at the GSR (Graduation Success Rate). You don't just have to get by admissions you have to go to class and you get a shiny piece of paper for it too.
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?key=/ncaa/ncaa/academics+and+athletes/educ…
ND had a GSR (Graduation Success Rate) of 96% (tied with Duke I think for 1st place) and it is actually 100% when you take out transfers.
December 16th, 2009 at 8:49 PM ^
You're right. There is absolutely no way Notre Dame prods players or helps them to a greater extent than other schools in the country. There is absolutely no way they are aware of that rate and find ways to maintain the level they have achieved. Nope. No way.
December 16th, 2009 at 10:35 PM ^
If you think every D1 school is worried about whether their athletes are actually going to class, and not only that but on track to graduate, I don't know what to tell you.
December 16th, 2009 at 11:01 PM ^
I think you're missing the point. Using something like the GSR to argue that Notre Dame doesn't take questionable players is like arguing that Brian Kelly will be successful at Notre Dame because his last name is Kelly and gosh darnit, there sure are a lot of Irish folks that like Notre Dame.
The GSR involves students that are already enrolled at Notre Dame, does it not? Then how in the world does that impact the athletes entering the school and their academic ability?
If you are trying to simply say that Cincinnati and Notre Dame expect different things out of their athletes, well, no shit.
December 17th, 2009 at 12:30 AM ^
I "thought" I was arguing that the GSR was an example of the academic expectations of the student athletes not admissions in particular. I didn't read his post correctly.
December 17th, 2009 at 9:39 PM ^
Ah yes, well that will change things. Expectations are clearly different at different institutions. From USF, where you can get your degree in french fry frying technique, to Stanford, where you best get your degree in epistemology.
December 16th, 2009 at 9:05 PM ^
What? I am talking about evidence that their admission standards are higher.
Everyone knows that with continual institutional support and amicable teachers, that a kid with an 18 ACT score and C average can get a degree.
December 16th, 2009 at 10:32 PM ^
Yeah my reading comprehension was lacking there.
December 16th, 2009 at 9:38 PM ^
A buddy and I graduated from nearby Saline High last year both playing cello.
He's far more talented than I and is studying there with a 24 ACT. 24 isn't bad at all but it's definitely below what you'd expect for a successful LSA candidate. Fortunately U-M knows his talent could bring prestige to the school, and he's on a half-tuition scholarship.
December 16th, 2009 at 5:14 PM ^
I don't mind "special" treatment going to 50 or so people a year that are there for athletic scholarships. Michigan has what...40,000 students? Let the ones with the "special" treatment provide funding and entertainment for your school and quit complaining.
December 16th, 2009 at 5:28 PM ^
Wow--fire a guy and the truth comes out!
I'm taking his to the FREEP!
December 16th, 2009 at 5:54 PM ^
mandatory study halls, mandatory review sessions, 0 credit remedial classes. I think those are all good ideas. If you get academic considerations in you admission, you should be required to do extra basic work. Why would anyone disagree with this?
December 16th, 2009 at 6:14 PM ^
At a D1 school with very good academics, I can say that this player talked in half-truths. While some players can have lower SAT/GPAs, the team as a whole cannot be full of players like that. The admissions office may let in a few (or even a moderate amount), but they'll also want some Roh's and Vinopal's and other Dhani Jones style student-athletes in the incoming classes as well.
December 16th, 2009 at 7:19 PM ^
He doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. He is throwing those SAT numbers out there to see if they stick with any of the other posters. It is not as different as he thinks.
Summer classes are easier because you only take 1 or 2 at a time, but the classes are longer and you have to do the same amount of work in a much shorter amount of time. As was stated, summer classes allow for fewer class requirements during the fall and summer semesters. Remedial classes, mentoring, study hall and obviously attendance is required and checked. But that is no revelation, I am pretty sure Miami suspended a player for missing 3 straight days of class, I think it was Miami.
December 16th, 2009 at 7:35 PM ^
If I'm Rudy,I would be pissed.
December 16th, 2009 at 8:12 PM ^
The academics issue is more of an issue with the overall reputation of the school. While Notre Dame has lower standards for the big time athletes, as most schools do, they are an outstanding institution in the academic world.
One point to add though, all schools have their limits with how low they will accept a kid. A former boss of mine is the booster club president a stellar football high school in Louisiana. They had a kid last year Eddy Lacy who wanted to go to LSU but his academic performance was so low that he was not allowed into the university. Alabama was able to grant him admission and he is there now.
December 16th, 2009 at 8:40 PM ^
I believe the point being made is that ND puts itself in the same conversation with Stanford, Northwestern, Navy, Army and if MIT and the University Of Chicago had football teams... If these are the practices at ND as suspected ND is a litlle more Delta House then Omega.
Dean Vernon Wormer: Zero point two... Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son. Mr. Hoover, president of Delta house? One point six; four C's and an F. A fine example you set! Daniel Simpson Day... HAS no grade point average. All courses incomplete. Mr. Blu - MR. BLUTARSKY... ZERO POINT ZERO.
December 16th, 2009 at 10:37 PM ^
thats not what I was trying to say, and tbh I preferred Flounder
December 16th, 2009 at 8:51 PM ^
I don't really understand why this is always an issue.
Yes, ND admits football players with grades/test scores far below what the average student has to get to be admitted to ND. Every school does this. You don't have to be a genius to get into ND! That said, a potential football players still has to try and take certain courses in high school, and get a decent ACT/SAT, in order to get in. Definitely tougher for a football player to get into ND than most other schools.
But I think the real difference between ND and pretty much any other school you'll see in the top 25 (besides Stanford) is what happens once the football player gets into school. There are no joke majors (although there are some joke classes that athletes do their best to get into). Nope, definitely no Kinesiology major. If you're a football player, you're going to every class, studying your butt off, and getting your degree. And yes, there are tutors and programs to help them out, but not any different than any other school.
I really don't mean to put down any other school, but I just think people should realize that academics for football players at ND are different than those at most other schools. That's a good thing, and I wish people wouldn't scoff at it or try to pretend it doesn't exist just because they don't like ND. This stuff is becoming a cesspool, and I'm glad some schools are still trying.
December 16th, 2009 at 9:48 PM ^
Although it's not right to lie about admission standards for athletes, at least academic schools like Notre Dame are still legally giving these kids the chance to succeed. My younger brother for example is very intelligent, however he is very hyperactive and plagued by adhd. The extra help he received from TA's in high school has really motivated him and opened up a whole realm of possibilities. OSU on the other hand simply created "fake" classes that football players never had to attend a few years back.
December 16th, 2009 at 10:42 PM ^
It is truly great when someone with a learning disability, is able to get that 1 on 1 focus to help them overcome a huge obstacle in their life.
December 17th, 2009 at 9:04 AM ^
ND, Duke, and for that matter Boston College, are private schools boasting high athletic graduation rates, but also generally operating in smaller environments (campus wise) than major public research universities like The University of Michigan. They are almost certainly in a position to exercise some greater degree of control over what people are doing at any given time. That is a trade-off knowingly accepted by students in both types of environment. Michigan is bigger, broader and more diversified than those schools. Students come to top-rated schools for different reasons. Bottom line - none of the aforementioned "high-graduation" schools can claim academic superiority, or even equivalence in most cases, to Michigan.
I seriously doubt any of these schools have materially higher admission standards for athletes than Michigan.
The leaders and best...
December 17th, 2009 at 6:25 AM ^
The Orlando Sentinel use to rank football admission standards a few years ago. Notre Dame scored a good 7/10, but 8 of their 12 opponents that year scored a 7 or higher too.
If Notre Dame has such tough admission standards. Then how did Blanton get accepted in after retaking his SAT and still having a 600 score.
If Notre Dame struggles recruiting because of academics, then why did Weis put together some great recruiting classes - including a 2008 class with the highest star average in the nation?
December 17th, 2009 at 9:59 AM ^
As I have said previously its a case by case basis, test scores are not the only measure used for admission and that is true of non-student athletes as well. Not sure where your getting his test score from.
Notre Dame doesn't struggle in recruiting, but they are very selective in who they offer scholarships to