More Hokie-Pokey

Submitted by Ponypie on December 11th, 2010 at 12:40 PM

I didn't see this linked in the long reply tree to Brian's Hoke feature, so here's more fuel for the non-fire that is all things BH.  Not that we would want to stoke a non-fire.…

I have to agree with Brian that there's no way Brandon turns Hoke's pipe dreams into our most likely miserable reality.



December 11th, 2010 at 12:57 PM ^

I'm one of the most patient people with RR, and I've been fine with giving him a 4th year throughout the entire season, even the worst parts of it. So while I'm not advocating Hoke comes in, I disagree with Brian that Hoke is that poor of a candidate.

The guy has shown he can turn MAC outfits into quality winners, and he can turn crap SDSU team into something good. He has ties to the university and has coached recently in the Midwest. All of that sounds really good right now.

The only reason I feel compelled to reiterate this is if Hoke becomes a serious candidate after next year, I'm afraid the hive mind is making too many people dismiss Hoke as a horrible candidate. The guy is actually a pretty good candidate now that he's had a chance to prove himself at two smaller schools.

I can agree with Brian's premise that he doesn't make sense over Rodriguez this year. While I acknowledge the results Rodriguez has put up aren't up to par with Michigan history, I think a lot of the media spin about "Michigan Man"-hood, or manhood in general, is why it's Harbaugh or nothing. This doesn't apply to every fan who thinks RR should be gone, but rather a small subset of that group.

That small, yet very vocal group demands excellence and a "Michigan Man" name. Hoke's name isn't "name enough" for them, and I think they'd be just as vocal against Hoke just because he wasn't their first choice. I think that's the real reason he isn't a viable candidate this year. RR has shown some progress on offense, giving him a fourth year to have one class from cradle to grave should be enough to solidify his legacy. He'll had his chance to retool and rebuild.

Then, if the steps aren't big enough, then I think we start to look at Hoke seriously.





December 11th, 2010 at 1:07 PM ^

I know I am not sure about Hoke to make a generalization about whether he is a good coach or not.  I would be real curious to hear from the people that want Coach Rod gone, if we can't get Harbaugh, would they change their view.  If I thought that Coach shouldn't get another year, I would not want to keep him just because we don't get Harbaugh.  Not trying to start another CC thread, just that your 3rd and 4th paragraphs gave me more thought.

Pea-Tear Gryphon

December 11th, 2010 at 1:09 PM ^

There is no room for a reasoned, logical thought in the CC debate, NEERRRRRRD! You are either all-in, holding the rope for RR, or you get in line to help build JH is new Taj Mahal Toilet. You elitist, know-it-all with your "words that make sense" and reluctance to "tell it like it is" really pisses me off! Line in sand drawn, no straddling allowed. Pick the corch you support or get off the pot!


December 11th, 2010 at 1:10 PM ^

I agree, I don't think Hoke is nearly as bad as everyone says.  He's a defensive minded coach which I think would be refreshing to all of us, he has ties to UM as said above, and he has a brother coaching in the NFL, which is good to have for a handful of reasons (recruits like the NFL connections). 

I want RR to stay, and if he were to go I would prefer Harbaugh to Hoke by a long shot, but I really don't think Hoke would be bad at all.


December 11th, 2010 at 1:41 PM ^

Or just Brian, because that was his emphatic first reaction, and then a subset of people who don't want anything Lloyd? I would probably stick with Rich over Hoke at this point of his career, but if Brandon hires Hoke over Rich, it probably has less to do with football and more Brandon's view on off the field stuff that he sees but we don't.


December 11th, 2010 at 1:51 PM ^

Yeah I'm in the camp that Hoke isn't as bad as made out to be.  Though he's more of guy who we would look at if RichRod gets a fourth season and it doesn't go well (assuming that Harbaugh is gone to the NFL or something like that).  San Diego probably has a good season next year with a veteran team coming back and a Mountain West that's devoid of Utah and BYU (though not sure what kind of attrition that TCU and Boise are facing).  It appears that SDSU is set up to have a pretty good season, and depending on how good TCU (who they were right with this year) and Boise will be, potential to go to a BCS game.  They also come to Ann Arbor to play U of M next year.  If Hoke beats Michigan and puts together a 11-1 or 12-0 type season, people are going to be falling all over themselves for Hoke, the way they do for Harbaugh now.  And you know that Hoke would never say no to Michigan.  If nothing else my belief is that for better or worse, Brady Hoke is the coach that's out there who the closest thing to Lloyd Carr (and this maybe a positive or negative for alot of people)   

Sextus Empiricus

December 11th, 2010 at 2:04 PM ^

move on?  DBs deliberate process meme is only hurting the program at this point.  There's been too much sabotage in the RR era.  Let's just commit to another year, play our first RR bowl game, sign the LOIs, get the EEs to spring ball and get it done.

Finding coaching talent is not going to be impossible whenever it comes to that.  There's no one out there that is going to make or break 2011+ for Michigan football outside of RR at this point.  I don't want to go down the Willingham/Weis/ND path.  But here it goes...Weis was handed a good team that he nose dived.  There are no guarantees from any potential incoming coach.  Please no more rebuilding until we see lack of progress. 

Thanks FA for laying it out.  Let's CC this threads Subject line and get on with our bowl game prep.


December 11th, 2010 at 8:12 PM ^

Hoke is a choice if we need a coach following an essential firing, but you don't force the process for him.  Though if he continues with the success he's having at SD State he'll definitely be a good choice (and bear in mind that, out of the three coaches who've coached Michigan in my lifetime, Bo had only coached Miami of Ohio, Moeller had a bad run at Illinois, and Carr hadn't been a head coach prior, so high level program success isn't necessary to get hired and succeed at Michigan as Head Coach).


December 11th, 2010 at 1:05 PM ^

if we fired Rich Rod in favor of Hoke i would be disappointed. You don't give a guy a shot at a big program if he hasn't proven his self on a bigger level, or conference especially when your program is in its down years, thats too much of a calculated risk. Keep RR or get another high profile coach.

Dark Blue

December 11th, 2010 at 1:07 PM ^

You don't give a guy a shot at a big program if he hasn't proven his self on a bigger level, or conference especially when your program is in its down years, thats too much of a calculated risk.

Uh yeah, didn't OSU do that with Tressel? Seems like thats worked out pretty goodt.


December 11th, 2010 at 1:16 PM ^

Well, not that I agree with the poster you replied to, but there is a difference between four D1-AA national titles, and 1 almost MAC championship plus an 8-4 season in the MWC.  Tressel's YSU team won 103 games in the 90's, more than any other 1-AA team.

I'm not saying Hoke can't be as good as Tressel given the time, but no one would look Hoke's resume compared to Tressel's pre-OSU resume and say Hoke is the better coach. 

Dark Blue

December 11th, 2010 at 1:23 PM ^

I wasn't trying to imply that Hoke is anywhere near the coach that Tressel is. If it came off that way I apologize. The dude's point was that you shouldn't give a coach a chance to coach a big program unless he had proven himself on a bigger stage. FCS schools, no matter what your record is, isn't exactly a bigger stage.


And I am not making any sense today, so lets just agree to FIRE HOKE


December 11th, 2010 at 1:35 PM ^

Coached up Ball State and SDS, and gone on to OSU to do what he's done, and Hoke had currently won a National Title at Youngstown State, we'd be getting "you can't compare I-AA to coaching at least on the FBS least Tressel has experience on this will the lower competition translate?" from a lot of people.


December 11th, 2010 at 1:45 PM ^

My issue with the Hoke resume is that he didn't really "coach up" anybody.  At Ball State he had one good season out of six (and still failed to win the conference despite being a heavy favorite against a mediocre Buffalo team) then bailed.  A year later they went 2-10 and I doubt that can be entirely attributed to "Hoke is a genius but Stan Parrish eats his own poo because he thinks it's candy." 

At SDSU, he's really just been the beneficiary of the administration's lack of patience with Chuck Long.  Long got canned after just three years but had improved recruiting and raised at least the local profile of the program (and nobody takes a team from bad to good with just one freshman recruiting class).  Hoke inherited a nice QB who had already started as a freshman and an overall much improved roster that has turned into a competent team as they become juniors and seniors.  And while they've played some teams close, all they really accomplished is finishing ahead of the four God-awful teams at the bottom of the MWC.

If his team continued to improve, won a MWC title and had any sustained success going forward, he would be infinitely more appealing than he is to me right now.


December 11th, 2010 at 1:37 PM ^

The guy had just won a BCS bowl game at Utah after an undefeated season where they pretty much throttled everybody on their schedule and finished in the top-5 nationally.  He had gone 22-2 at Utah after going 17-6 at Bowling Green.  He had also been an assistant at Ohio State and Notre Dame.

Not quite the same as a guy who has a losing record over his eight years as a head coach and has never won a conference championship or a bowl game.


December 11th, 2010 at 2:06 PM ^

True Urban had a great record at Utah and BG.  But, he wasn't at both places that long.  I was arguing more of the track record that he would be successful at a big time program.  I was not comparing him to Hoke. 

I hear the pundits always say that Florida took a chance with Urban because he wasn't established yet for such a high profile job.  If you think coaching to that record at Utah and BG was a good indicator of his success at a high profile job that I am wrong with my statement.


December 11th, 2010 at 2:18 PM ^

My counter to that view would be: "How in the world are you going to get anybody with a higher profile who would take the job?"  Other than Nick Saban going to Alabama after his NFL stint and maybe Spurrier to South Carolina, guys with established resumes at big time programs are never available or aren't going to leave the job where they have built that kind of resume.  Bob Stoops is only going to take the Notre Dame job in the mind of delusional Irish fans, for example.

As such, the most proven coaches out there that a big program could ever hire are going to be guys like Meyer, Rodriguez, and Peterson who had BCS level success at smaller programs.


December 11th, 2010 at 2:22 PM ^

That was my point and question for the the guy who pointed out that Hoke was not high profiled enough.  Read back what I wrote.  I said I have no basis to judge Hoke, and I wanted to know was high profile to him.  I threw out there Urban in the hopes that he would let me know if Urban was high profile enough before Florida. 

I probably didn't make my point or question clear.


December 11th, 2010 at 2:43 PM ^

Bear Bryant started out at Texas A&M and Kentucky before going to Alabama. While those schools weren't rinky dink Conference USA-type of schools back then, neither were they in Alabama's league. Darrel Royal was a sparking 17-13 after two seasons at Mississippi State and one season at Washington before he was hired at Texas. Woody Hayes coached at Denison and Miami before going to OSU. Nick Saban's HC experience prior to taking the MSU job was all of one year at Toledo.

It's like any other kind of career—it's normal to have to prove yourself at lower and smaller positions as you work your way up the ladder. Plenty of guys have success at lower rungs, but don't make it at top-rung spots.

However, I'd bet the failure rate for the guys who never work their way up in the college head coaching ranks, and instead get their first HC gigs at big-time programs is extremely high. Charlie Weis comes to mind. Jerry Faust is another. Funny that they should be both notable ND flameouts. Bill Callahan is a different kind of flame-out; he'd had HC experience in the NFL, and had been a well-regarded college assistant, but his first college head coaching job was at Nebraska. That didn't go well. This is partially why I'm skeptical about Jon Gruden's prospects as a first-time college coach.


December 11th, 2010 at 1:53 PM ^

Those guys all had winning records when they coached in the MAC.  Bo was 40-17-3, won the conference twice, and never had a losing season at Miami.  Hayes went 14-5 and won the awesomely named Salad Bowl after winning the conference.  Meyer went 17-6 at Bowling Green. 

Hoke went 34-38 at BSU, never won a bowl game and never won a conference title.  One of these things is not like the others.


December 11th, 2010 at 1:27 PM ^

yeah they did do that with Tressel but he went undefeated in a couple seasons in youngstown and won 4 national championships in his division, hokes team is 8-4 right now and his best recored at his other job was 11-1 with no NC, so theres a difference tressel was more proven,i probably should have said proven not high profile sorry for that mistake, but jh would come urban after he comes back, and the mad hatter if they really wanted him those are high profile guys who would come.


December 11th, 2010 at 1:27 PM ^

How often would we see a university President put such a positive spin on rumors his coach could be up for consideration at a high-profile school?

“If he were offered the opportunity, I have got to believe there is no way we can compete with that,” Weber said Friday. “And I kind of like the fact we have a coach who (would be) in play for a place like the University of Michigan. C’mon, this is a good thing.”


December 11th, 2010 at 1:31 PM ^

but the places he has been at are nowhere near the challenge that Michigan presents. Firing Coach Rod for Hoke would be a big risk, IMO; I think the better road would be to allow Coach Rod to make his adjustments (i.e., defensive coaching adjustments), allow a one year more experienced program to tackle 2011, and go from there.


December 11th, 2010 at 1:33 PM ^

but considering what he's done with what he's had to work with, I think he's shown he's a better coach than guys like Charlie Weis, Ron Zook or Tim Brewster, just to pick some names of guys who've failed at coaching BCS-level schools recently. Hoke will get a BCS-conference gig before too long, unless he decides he just likes the weather in San Diego better. Whether he will ever truly merit solid consideration for the Michigan job is another question entirely.


December 11th, 2010 at 1:36 PM ^

I think it's accurate to say that the dominant reaction around here to Gene Chizik's bizarrely unlikely ascendance to the Auburn job was "LOL, those Auburn people are fools." I was certainly one of those joining in on the derision.

What a difference reality makes.


December 11th, 2010 at 2:05 PM ^

I think that feeling (that Auburn had made a terrible mistake) can be attributed to the same "coaches are magical and single handedly make teams win by their mere presence" sentiment that has colored so much of the RR debate.  No coach was going to make Iowa State good in two seasons (or maybe ever) and in fact Chizik laid the groundwork that allowed Paul Rhoads to go 12-13 in his first two years on the job (pretty good when compared to Chizik's 5-19 record). 

Chizik had a great resume as a defensive coordinator at Texas and Auburn that some wanted to ignore simply because he'd made (arguably) the mistake of taking one of the crappier BCS head coaching jobs in existence.