Monday Perspective.

Submitted by MichiganMan14 on September 22nd, 2014 at 2:20 PM
Sounds cliche' but it's definitely a red/blue pill scenario for our football program. I think highly of Brady as a man. I do not think he is a very effective head coach. Recruits love him and he gets our tradition. Is it worth the 4-6 losses a year? I don'tthink so but firing Hoke does nothing without a subsequent "Home Run" hire. I hate the thought of another 3 year build up but perhaps if we hire the right guy, he could reasonably find success in year one with the talent that Brady amassed. Our players could simply start playing for Brady and save his job. I just don't see the passion that I saw growing up in this program. I think Michigan has a chance to squeeze 7 or 8 more wins out of this season but it will take a monumental turn around, quarterback change and a sincere gut check. Who are we anymore? We don't have a defined identity. I think moving Gardner back to WR and starting Shane Is the best move for the program at this time. It accelerates his development and chemistry with the offense, which is nearly back in its entirety next season. It also allows Devin to show case his talent to NFL scouts in a realistic position. Devin could possibly play WR in the league. QB is a stretch. I haven't lost hope for Michigan football and you shouldn't either. We are not a top 25 program right now but we are not that far away despite how it seems. There may need to be a change at the top and most of us can sense that it's coming. While we are at it I'd love to see a move back to Nike. Adidas has not been a fortunate branding for us. The turnaround begins this Saturday along with B1G play. I remember 2007 and we were in the same position. Let the theatre that is this miserable start to this season play out. I have a feeling that we may make dram out of this thing yet. Does it annoy anyone else that Arizona is 4-0? Karma?

Comments

Darker Blue

September 22nd, 2014 at 2:25 PM ^

I watched 'Zona on Saturday night. Their offense is fun to watch. I know our defense has grown by leaps and bounds since the previous regime was run out of town, but damn man 600 + yards of offense with a true freshman qb starting. 

I just want Michigan to win and do it the right way. I don't care who coaches, just resume winning please. 

Also this board feels like 2010 again. 

PurpleStuff

September 22nd, 2014 at 3:25 PM ^

Hoke's team gets worse every year and people still think he's a good recruiter because Kalis and Pipkins had 5-stars next to their names. 

We're where we are now because Hoke is a poor coach (which only costs you a game or two a year) and because Hoke/Mattison don't know how to build a winning program.  Notre Dame sucked for 8 years and for some reason people here expected different.

Dave Brandon backed the wrong horse (as did most of our fanbase) and we're paying the price now. 

PurpleStuff

September 22nd, 2014 at 3:59 PM ^

Coaching is overrated.  It is worth about a game or two either way a year (and I think Hoke/Borges falls on the shitty end of that spectrum). 

Building a program is what counts.  Hoke hasn't gotten dumber, this team is just way less talented.  We don't have a receiver as good as Gallon (and we certainly don't have two), we don't have a runner like Denard, we don't have linemen like Molk, Lewan, Omameh, and Schofield.

That's why the team kind of stinks now.  After all the bitching about what he inherited, the cupboard is bare because Brady Hoke didn't adequately stock the shelves.

BlueLikeJazz

September 22nd, 2014 at 2:41 PM ^

At this point I can take losing.  I just want the team to be fun to watch.  It was fun in 2010, even though they weren't very good.

And I don't want to go back to the days of giving up 500+ yards a game, but I just want to see relative competence in all three phases.  Not even dominance, just competence.  I don't feel like that should be unrealistic.

ak47

September 22nd, 2014 at 2:46 PM ^

You watched Zona almost lose to a terrible cal team and came away impressed and wanting that?  This is a cal team that won 1 game last year, 3 the year before that.   This is like when michigan beat illinois 67-65 or some shit like that.  Sure it was technically a win but it was like the akron game last year, it showed that the team wasn't the good.  Rich rod would make for a great OC but he would not be successful at michigan and wasn't going to be if we kept him around.  I don't really care how we win or lose, have an exciting offense but a shitty team still does nothing for me.

ak47

September 22nd, 2014 at 3:24 PM ^

Its not just about the offense, thats the issue that rich rod had, his offense was fine though it tended to come up small in big games.  Saturday nights game was as much about cal collapsing as it was about arizona suddenly being good at football again.  Arizone will probably have a good offense this year, my only point was that watching that game reminded me why I'm glad we fired rich rod.  Hoke might not have been the right hire but we were never going to win with him because the defense would have never turned around.  I may be in the minority but losing a game in the 40's is just as bad if not worse to me than losing a game 20-10, I can't stand bad defense.

PurpleStuff

September 22nd, 2014 at 3:34 PM ^

You remember that team had a winning record and blew out RGIII's Baylor team in a bowl game?  Notre Dame also won a bowl game that year.  UConn won the Big East that year.  That's 3 teams with winning records.  We only beat two last year (ND and Minnesota) and have gotten smoked by anybody with a pulse this year. 

And the 2011 team was poised to be better and/or more experienced at virtually every position on the field.  We didn't have people pretending that Darboh/Chesson could replace Jeremy Gallon.  Or that the line would be better without Lewan and Schofield. 

Some people are still stuck in their misperceptions, but Dave Brandon is going to go down as a laughingstock for throwing Rodriguez under the bus ("Sorry, recruits, I don't know who will be the coach if you come here"), firing him after 3 years to bring in a mediocre MAC coach, then backing the sinking ship with all his might (Have people forgotten the "open letter" last year?).  The more time passes, the dumber and dumber it will look.  UA is better in year 3 than Hoke is in year 4, and they are running out a freshman at QB and RB and the best receiver is a sophomore. 

Remember how what would have been year 4 for RichRod went here?  Or are people still convinced we won because Brady Hoke is a genius who turned things around?

PurpleStuff

September 22nd, 2014 at 3:55 PM ^

The defense in 2010 was virtually entirely made up of freshmen and sophomores, with Jonas Mouton as the only quality upperclassman (others were journeymen or untalented guys like Ezeh, Banks, Rogers).

The defense got better in 2011 because Heininger and Woolfolk came back from injury, Martin was back to being 100% healthy (he had a bum ankle the 2nd half of 2010 thanks to an MSU cheapshot), and we added Countess, Ryan, and Morgan who locked down starting positions as freshmen.

You can continue to believe Hoke/Mattison worked a miracle, or you can watch as our program goes down the shitter and Arizona improves every year and keep pretending you are good at analyzing this sort of thing. 

Since I said this would all happen 4 years ago (when people predicted a tough season for us in 2011 and a powerhouse team when Hoke's recruits got here in 2014 and beyond), I don't want to hear from the people who got it so fucking wrong.  Dave Brandon being the top one on that list.  One offseason of patience would have saved us 3+ years of pain with a mediocre MAC coach who doesn't know how to build an elite program.

snarling wolverine

September 22nd, 2014 at 5:01 PM ^

I'm sorry but this is delusional.  RichRod was an utter disaster on the defensive side of the ball all three years he was here, and his Arizona teams are also lousy defensively.   Lack of D is going to prevent Arizona from becoming elite, just as it would have done to us too if he'd stayed.  

That photo of JT Floyd turning the wrong way in 2010 PSU was the RichRod D encapsulated.

 

Mblue96

September 22nd, 2014 at 10:42 PM ^

RR has built winning programs everywhere he has been. At every level he has been. And he will at Arizona. The only exception being Michigan. THAT is not a RR problem. That is a MICHIGAN problem. Hoke has been a mediocre head coach everywhere he has been.

M football is the laughing stock of college football. When RR was fired, everyone who followed football here (I live in Oregon) were like, "what the hell is Michigan doing? You guys dump a proven young coach who will build a new dynasty at a school like Michigan for some mediocre guy who has a .500 record after 3 years?"

ak47

September 22nd, 2014 at 4:10 PM ^

Jesus christ man, the defense didn't go from being in the 80's to top 25 because everyone got a year older.  Rich rod had lost that team and it wasn't going to turn around with him as the coach.  You know why there so were so few transfers when he left? because the team didn't care that he was fired.  Rich rod could be amazingly successful at arizona, it doesn't change the fact that he wasn't working here.

Talking about how Uconn won the big east that year is like being proud of beating a mac team, that same uconn team lost 30-16 at temple and got wrecked by both l'ville  and oklahoma and we all know that illinois team was not good.  Nobody is arguing that Hoke is doing well here, I'm arguing that rich rod wouldn't have done any better and nothing about what he has done since or that cal game changes my mind. His amazing coaching the first two years took arizona to identical 8-5 records with below .500 seasons in the pac 12. He is now 9-10 in the pac 12.  What about that screams good coach?

PurpleStuff

September 22nd, 2014 at 4:21 PM ^

Did you predict Michigan would win 10 games in 2011, no matter who the coach was?  Or that Hoke would have immediate success and then slowly run the program into the ground, at a time when everyone was crowing about 5-star recruits who don't see the field now?

I called everything that is happening 4 years ago.  I see you signed up since then, so maybe you missed it.  People made the same dumbass arguments then and have kept doing it ever since.  People argued when I said Utah was going to beat us easily last week, too.  I'd like to hear their explanation about how we're still clearly headed in the right direction.

When RichRod gets a team full of his players next year and beyond, you'll be proven wrong on yet another prediction.

PurpleStuff

September 22nd, 2014 at 5:17 PM ^

Once Rodriguez started coaching games, the Michigan program was broken.  Carr did an atrocious job recruiting that was further exacerbated by the departure of Mallett, Boren, etc. before RR ever coached a game.  It was a complete rebuild, not walking into a BCS contender.  It took 4 years, but we decided not to give it a chance.  Then we gave Hokeall the credit.  Where has that gotten us in his 4th year?

RR built a great team here and it would have been even better if Dave Brandon hadn't undermined recruiting from early 2010 until he fired the coach a year later.  Or if we'd gotten to see Denard Robinson play in the same offense as a true junior.  How do you explain the difference between 11-2 and the shitshow we see now?  Hoke made us much better but then took retard pills that slowly kick in?  Or was the team he walked into a lot more talented than the one he's been building?

I'll happily wager you a dollar that Arizona is the best it has ever been as a program next year and beyond with Rodriguez at the helm.  Until then, remind me how many predictions you got right about this program up until now, because I'm batting about 1.000.

CalifExile

September 22nd, 2014 at 7:25 PM ^

"How do you explain the difference between 11-2 and the shitshow we see now?" Their answer is that it was all "because of Carr's seniors." Of course they also claim that last year's problems were because of senior leadership. And this year's problems are because we have no senior leadership. Some Mgousers are capable of believing 15 false and contradictory things before breakfast.

Mblue96

September 22nd, 2014 at 11:27 PM ^

Your posts from Dec 2010. Wrote something like since the team will win around 9-10 games in 2011 we should just keep RR and not go thru another transition (i.e. Carr left a bare cupboard). Sadly this is probably the same reason Hoke should stay (despite now being in Year 4 versus RR's 3) UNLESS we can pull in a PROVEN head coach who can work with this personnel (i.e. Pro-style) and avoid yet another costly transition from one style to another. Not too many of them out there.

The difference is that had we rode out a few tough years with RR the program would have emerged completely rebuilt with a new identity and would have been ready to make consistent runs to the top in this new landscape. RR will get Arizona to WV levels but will ultimately be limited because it is not a Power Football school

I think short of that miracle where we can land a Harbaugh we're going to be on the Brady Hoke express (or rather slow boat) and maybe we eventually end up with many a uninspired 3-5 loss season which end with corporate sponsored du jour bowl game during ESPN Capital One Bowl Week.

CalifExile

September 22nd, 2014 at 7:20 PM ^

You seem to be missing the fact that the Pac-12 is a good conference. It would be humiliating to be 9-10 in the B1G. Not so much in the Pac-12.

Why do you ignore the fact that Michigan improved every year under RR and would have continued to do so in the year when he finally had a second-year starter at QB?

PurpleStuff

September 22nd, 2014 at 3:47 PM ^

We haven't scored an offensive touchdown against a team with a pulse this year.  Picking apart Arizona's record when it is better than ours and has been over the last three seasons (they are three games better at this point over that stretch) is asinine.

You were wrong.  The more evidence that comes in going forward, the wronger you will be.  Or are you still pretending that the difference between 2011 and 2014 is Lloyd Carr's seniors?

ak47

September 22nd, 2014 at 4:14 PM ^

None of this post means that rich rod has a good team in arizona.  He has a medicore team and he is a mediocre coach.  That doesn't mean Hoke is a good coach, clearly he is not, but Hoke being bad does not mean rich rod would have been good.  Sometimes situations just don't work out, rich rod at michigan wasn't working.

PurpleStuff

September 22nd, 2014 at 4:34 PM ^

Rodriguez is just starting to put his talent imprint on the UA roster.  The QB is a RS freshman.  The RB is a true freshman.  The top receiver is a sophomore.  Unlike Hoke, his teams get better when more of his players arrive on campus (WVU became a powerhouse top-10 program in his 5th year there, Michigan won a BCS bowl in what would have been his 4th year here).  Arizona will keep getting better while Michigan keeps getting worse (we lose a lot of key contributors off the defense next year and appear to have little/no talent in the pipeline on offense). 

If Beilein had gotten fired after three years you could also have made the ridiculous statement that it wasn't working for him at Michigan.  You would have been very wrong.  You have nothing on which to base your confidence.  You are just still mad that Michigan wasn't good when Rodriguez was here.  That kind of thinking leads people to hire guys like Hoke, give them credit for another's accomplishments, and sit back wondering what happened to our beloved football program.

ak47

September 22nd, 2014 at 5:28 PM ^

By his third year beilein had already taken a team to the ncaa tournament and beaten multiple ranked teams including two in the top 5.  By his third year rich rod had barely managed his first winning season and got embarassed by a good but not great mississipi state team in a bowl game, they aren't exactly similar third years but nice strawman argument.

PurpleStuff

September 22nd, 2014 at 5:44 PM ^

Beilein went 15-17 in year 3, his biggest recruit was Evan Smotrycz, and he started year 4 at 1-6 in the B1G. 

People could easily have viewed the program as headed in the wrong direction and nobody would have had a strong argument that we were a juggernaut in the making if he'd been fired.  Even the people who didn't want him fired weren't saying "We'll be in the title game in a couple of years, just wait."

Acting like you know what would have happened if something that didn't get a chance to happen had transpired is ridiculous.  You have an opinion.  All the surrounding evidence (the strength of RR's teams at WVU after his guys filled the roster, the fact that UA is better than Michigan was with RR or is with Hoke, the place we find ourselves in after 4 years of the Hokester, etc.) suggests that when given the chance to build a team, Rich Rodriguez produces great results.  We didn't get to see those results (for better or worse) because he got fired.  Just like we wouldn't have seen Beilein's great results if he had gotten fired. 

 

ak47

September 22nd, 2014 at 7:47 PM ^

No you are trying to justify your shitty example.  You should never make your decisions based on one year of data and beileins first three years as whole meant that everyone was willing to give him a fourth because he had already accomplished something, if he had finished the fourth poorly he probably wouldn't have gotten a fifth but he didn't .  In his three year rich rod had accomplished the worst season in michigan history and had the program "trending upwards" only by the incredibly shitty standard he had set in his first year. Rich rods track record in the big east means about as much to me as a good mac coach, the big east is a joke and he hasn't done anything yet with arizona other than being average.  4-5 your first two years in the league isn't all that impressive, especially since they are in the much weaker of the two pac 12 divisions.

You talk about how great rich rod is at building a program, who was going to play on his offensive line in 2013? The imaginary linemen he didn't recruit.  The lack of an explosive senior wr is becaue rich rod didn't recruit one and a healthy funchess is a better target than gallon.  He brought in tiny corners to play defense and the best one of those is countess who is now our third best corner.  Hoke may not be a good coach but this idea that somehow rich rod was on the path to greatness is fucking absurd.

PurpleStuff

September 22nd, 2014 at 8:43 PM ^

You do realize Rich Rodriguez got fired well before signing day and was being undermined by his athletic director for the entire 2011 recruiting cycle (while he openly supported Hoke in the midst of an epic collapse, Brandon refused to ever acknowledge whether or not the guy recruiting them would in fact be their coach when recruits asked about it).  Jake Fisher decommitted and has started from basically day one at Oregon.  They are good at football.  Put him next to Miller, Lewan, Schofield, and a promising RS freshman from the 2012 class (that I am certain Rodriguez would have filled better than Hoke did) and you've got your offensive line.  Then you have an experienced Devin Gardner running a coherent offense that utilizes his legs, you have skill players from the 2011-13 classes that RR would have brought in (who would IMO make a bigger impact than the virtually nothing we've gotten from Hoke's recruits).

Yeah, we would have been fine if Dave Brandon had manned up and backed the right horse.  You'll see that in a year or two at Arizona and you're sure as shit seeing it now at Michigan.

Until then, you got what you wanted.  Enjoy!

dothepose

September 22nd, 2014 at 2:29 PM ^

I just don't get why at this point, anyone thinks their opinion is any different than anyone else's right now. I get everyone is frustrated and basically showing apathy at this point.

reshp1

September 22nd, 2014 at 2:32 PM ^

I also greatly respect Hoke, but at the end of the season if he needs to leave then so be it. Someone very succinctly put it that he's everything you want from a Michigan coach except winning. While it's hard to just trash all the other stuff, unfortunately it has to be down if the results on the field isn't there.

My only hopes right now is that

A) The team doesn't quit. That's not fair for the seniors, and it sets up poorly in 2015 for whomever is coaching.

B) I hope we as a fanbase can hold it together until the end of the season and not create an even more toxic atmosphere that will crater recruiting, kill the player's motivation, and ironically hamper potential future hires.

C) We can evaluate the situation at the end of the year clear-headedly and not out of ANGAR. It's a distinct possibility that there will be no good options available to replace Hoke. If that happens to be the case, I hope people can be open to the possibility of punting for a year and hoping a better option becomes available (or a turnaround, as unlikely as that is) and not be completely blinded by their hatred of the Hoke program to just go grab anyone as a replacement. This program simply can not survive another 3-4 year tenure of mediocrity. Whoever we hire needs to be a slam dunk.

Cali Wolverine

September 22nd, 2014 at 2:32 PM ^

1. After watching the first 3 games of the season, I was not surprised (just saddened) that a decent PAC 12 team beat a mediocre BIG team on Saturday.

2. Hoke is a great guy and good position coach...but not a good head coach for a major program like Michigan.

3. Gardner has great character, is an incredible athlete...but is not a very good college QB.

4. Michigan is a basketball school now...and I really respect and appreciate Coach Beilein.

Neg away

ontarioblue

September 22nd, 2014 at 2:35 PM ^

He will get killed back there.  He needs an Oline that will protect him.  He does not have the footwork or speed to avoid the rush he will see.  He needs plenty of reps with the 1st team in practice against the 1st team.  He needs the bowl practices (if we qualify), the spring and fall practices to be ready to take this program over next year.  For now, Gardner should be allowed to do what he does best, and that is roll out and run if nothing is open.  Having him sit in the pocket with happy feet is not the answer.