Michigan an Experienced Team; Per Rothstein

Submitted by Shalom Lansky on November 4th, 2009 at 5:03 PM

One representative quote:

"So to point to the roster and say 60 freshmen and sophomores are on it, including walk-ons, as a youth excuse a false truth. As is saying - as Rodriguez has - that Michigan’s talent level was left bare when he was hired in December 2007. Because he clearly feels a bunch of those players are good enough to win with this season."

Logic failure, help.

Playing time doesn't necessarily mean that RR thinks these are guys he can win with; on this team it more likely means the alternative = certain death.

Secondly, the number continuously thrown about by the guys on WTKA is approx. 85 Frosh & Soph, I wonder if the WTKA # includes RS Soph. while Rothstein does not in his tally of 60.




November 4th, 2009 at 5:15 PM ^

I am in agreement with him one one thing: there are 60ish freshman and sophomores, not 85ish (still a pretty high number). RS sophomores should not be included in a count of "young" players. A RS soph is in his 3rd year on campus and should be viewed as a veteran-ish player


November 4th, 2009 at 5:17 PM ^

Ah, you beat me to posting this poor attempt to refute Mispogon's diaries. He completely fails to provide the context that those diaries had, especially the second. He lists five players on both offense and defense with 19 starts as an example of experience (he even includes Martavious Odoms, a true sophomore!), while ignoring things like ND, OSU, MSU, and Alabama having complete two-deeps full of players who have been in college as long as those guys.

Secondly, the number continuously thrown about by the guys on WTKA is approx. 85 Frosh & Soph, I wonder if the WTKA # includes RS Soph. while Rothstein does not in his tally of 60.

He says in the comments:

When you look at years on campus, there are 60 freshmen and sophomores. Just because a guy has a certain number of eligibility years remaining doesn't mean they haven't been on campus lifting and practicing and all of that. They are just preserving a year. But they are still learning the system and practicing.

So yeah, the 85 includes redshirt sophomores. He's discounting them because that makes his argument sound better.


November 4th, 2009 at 7:31 PM ^

has been extremely biased. In a recent column he wrote titled "Second-year turnaround? How about a U-Turn to last year for Michigan football?" Rothstein goes on to state that "a once-feared offensive coach, a guy who was considered to have an innovative mind [i am going to guess Rothstein is talking about himself here], is being begged to stay by opposing fans."

A guy who was once considered (as in past fucking tense considered) to have an innovative mind? I mean, its an opinion piece and all but he bases his judgment on this fan's comment:
“Rich Rodriguez, I love you, man,” the fan said as the final minutes ticked down on Illinois’ 38-13 win over Michigan. “If it weren’t for you, we’d be 1-7.”

I'd expect this type of analysis from Sparty or Bucknuts, but this is ridiculous coming supposedly from an ally paper.


November 4th, 2009 at 5:37 PM ^

Just goes to show you that you shouldn't trust the mainstream media to know more about your team than you do.

EDIT: Apparently he should know as much as we do, since he works around here. I retract that statement in this case, but in general it holds true.


November 4th, 2009 at 5:42 PM ^

I don't miss Mr. Sanctimonious Carty one bit, but Rothstein makes him look like David Halberstam. There isn't a single thing Rothstein has written that isn't something you could read on a hundred message boards or hear in a hundred sports bars.

He does have nice shiny hair, though.


November 4th, 2009 at 5:49 PM ^

So a guy who hasn't even completed 2 seasons of eligibility as a player, assuming he's getting playing time at all, should be viewed as "veteran-ish?"


November 4th, 2009 at 6:04 PM ^

This team currently has 39 guys on scholarship who aren't freshmen by my count (23 on offense and 16 on defense). That list even counts former walk-ons like Sheridan and Moundros. Out of 85 available scholarship slots, 39 guys aren't freshmen.

Saying this team is experienced is the equivalent of me telling girls I have an eight foot dong.


November 4th, 2009 at 6:11 PM ^

realize that he sounds like a jackass to people who follow M football closely? Apparently not. Oh no, I get it, if he writes it, it must be true because nobody will check his statements.


November 4th, 2009 at 7:07 PM ^

take the statistics as facts, and draw conclusions without questioning. They're too busy with everything else in their lives, to dig into the facts, or ask about the depth in previous years, or on other teams.

It just another of a thousand little cuts that RR, as the head coach, has to bear.


November 4th, 2009 at 6:17 PM ^

I cant remember if it is him or Birkett..pretty sure it is rothstein though. Guy was/still is a ND slappy and has basicly tried to take shots at Michigan any chance he could get this year!


November 4th, 2009 at 6:39 PM ^

Just when he appears to be covering the team in a balanced way, he pulls this shit. The headline makes RR look dishonest, and is running in mlive, too. I wish these douchebag writers would apply the same standards of honesty to themselves that they do to RR.

I don't expect the press to be sycophants and shills like they are in Columbus, but couldn't they at least try to be fair and objective once in awhile? If it wasn't for Birkett, Angel, and sometimes Wojo, there wouldn't be any objective coverage of the team in the entire state.

I guess the only bright side is that not a lot of people outside of the hardcore fans bother to read mlive or A2.com.

los barcos

November 4th, 2009 at 6:43 PM ^

i think he made a good point re freshmen players vs walk ons. specifically, i dont know why vlad hasnt seen the field as avsafety. he's already burned the redshirt, why not throw him back there? it certainly cant hurt, and if he really is "the future" at safety why not get him some valuable real-game reps?


November 4th, 2009 at 7:06 PM ^

It's not that I think he is baised or hates michigan. He is just a joker. He writes like an 8 year old and his critical thinking skills are somewhere below that. Honestly I am a horrible writer, but I could pump that junk out in 10 min.

Johnny M Goblue

November 4th, 2009 at 8:34 PM ^

First time poster... long time reader...

I have to admit that I was one of the angriest Michigan fans on Saturday. I ranted and raved to my family, including a letter winner from the 70’s, about how RR may not be the coach… that I no longer believed that RR could get the job done in the Big 10, backed up mainly by the personnel, namely Carlos Brown instead of Brandon Minor, on 2nd and 3rd from 18 inches. Watching the meltdown from this point was, sorry to say, predictable. I admit it, I blamed RichRod.

I’ve spent the last couple of days settling down and backing away from the window ledge. My brother was so concerned at my hostility that he took it upon himself to forward me a few emails that have been circulating between some of the teams and players he was associated with. Safe to say, I’m back in the RR camp, and growing more disgusted with Lloyd with each passing moment. Please note some of the excerpts below.

I am not sure who the author is, but it’s remarkable food for thought.

“Bill Martin, Mary Sue Coleman and Lloyd Carr are equally responsible for the off-field turmoil and on-field failure of the past 18 months. Coach Rich Rodriguez bailed out Martin and Coleman by accepting the Michigan job. Yes, the cupboards were empty & this staff did not inherit anything like the talent of Bo or Lloyd (see below).

Put the blame where it belongs. Get behind Coach Rich Rodriguez and his staff and allow him to rebuild the stale Michigan program and outdated conditioning.

"Our issues did not appear overnight, and will not be solved overnight. I promise you, I'm less patient than any of you or our fans - and we have great fans. Progress is being made. I wish it was faster. It's not going as fast as I would like, trust me."

"We're not talented enough right now to play poorly and win, at any phase. That might be hard for some people to understand, but that's where we're at. We've got to play well and get a few breaks and then we're capable of winning any game we play " says Coach Rich Rodriguez

Bo inherited from Bump Elliot nine All Americans and twenty eight All Big Ten players, four college football Hall of Famers PLUS DON CANHAM and went 8-3 his first year. Carr was 9-4 his first year despite inheriting nine All Americans, twenty four All Big Ten players and a Heisman Trophy winner from Gary Moeller.

Lloyd Carr came into the position in 1995 with the Michigan brand glowing (Big Ten record five consecutive championships, Ohio State had beaten Michigan only 2 of previous 10 games. With the Fab Five success, recruiting buzz was much more favorable during LC's initial years than what anything current staff is competing with .

Last year's team had the fewest Michigan NFL draft picks since 1994 & no All Big Ten player for the first time since 1962! Remember the previous year with Lloyd & current NFL players Henne, Hart, Long, Manningham, Arrington, Crable and Adams they still lost four games.

Let's remember the SHAMBLES Lloyd Carr left the program in. No QB, No OL, No experienced RB, same sieve defense that suffered the worst defeat in the Michigan football programs 130 year history (Appy State), an equally embarrassing loss to Oregon, couldn't tackle Wisconsin and losses in five of the last six years to Ohio State---something Michigan had not previously done in 17 years!

Lloyd Carr's communication/encouraging Ryan Mallett and Justin Boren to transfer, was indicative of his bitterness once one of his staff members was not picked to succeed him. Lloyd continues to draw $387,883 a year salary from the Michigan Athletic department and his lone job description appears to be a whisper campaign against the current regime.

Coach Rich Rodriguez came to Michigan based on it's successful tradition not it's current sleepy situation. He has to re-establish Michigan's on-field dominance and the luster to the Michigan brand that was bolstered and dominant throughout college football during the Canham/Schembechler/Moeller reign and declined during Lloyds final years at Michigan.

Coach Rich Rodriguez will win, but he obviously needs three or more years of recruiting class's and perhaps some coaching adjustments. He will compete for the Big Ten championship soon and in time will have National Championship potential.

University of Michigan Football supporters have to give it time, we can question everything they do but we have to support Coach Rich Rodriguez through the transition. It's tougher than anyone thought it would be but in the long run the status quo was proven that it was not going to compete with the elite teams in the country.

We saw what USC did to us in Pasadena, we saw what App State and Oregon did to us at home. It was time for change, transition is not always smooth but now more than any time in it's time to stand behind Michigan football.

Lets face it no Big Ten team can compete with the top teams in the country right now. It's a matter of time before the pieces of the puzzle are in all the right places and Michigan is back at the top of the Big Ten and can compete with the best.

We are ahead of the curve in the Big Ten in terms of what we are schematically doing on O and D, obviously behind the curve on the transition, and paying a premium to get there but have faith we are going to get there.

Former players I have spoken with support Coach Rich Rodriguez 100%. I think the comments of current NFL player (Carr recruit) Larry Foote sum up the situation best when he states, "I respect what he's doing, putting a program in place even if it might sacrifice some victories now. He's a proven winner and when they get it right, they're going to dominate. They're gonna be a powerhouse sooner than people think."

This is the attitude and approach all Michigan supporters should take.’


November 4th, 2009 at 11:14 PM ^

More seriously, it's not good form to post unsourced material, particularly when YOU don't even know the source. It's even worse when it's filled with factual inaccuracies (which I'm not going to counter with a long post...if you've been reading that long, I'm sure you can find numerous examples to the contrary; and any time it does it makes it sound like one is dumping on Rich by saying baseless attacks against Lloyd are silly). And has even less point in this thread. Not to be mean, but if this is going to be the level of your contribution, I would suggest you go back to lurking.

Johnny M Goblue

November 5th, 2009 at 10:00 AM ^

Thanks for the input M-Wolverine… I wasn’t aware this was such serious work happening here. Perhaps I’ll go back to lurking and you can sit comfortably on you Mgoblog throne of knowledge without the interruptions from us blogging peasants.

For the record, Rich Leach isn’t the source – that much I know.

Furthermore I have been dismissing these rumors (Lloyd’s whisper campaign) from the beginning. These rumors are now being confirmed through very reliable sources that would have to speak for themselves if they wish to. The direct quote is ‘Lloyd is legacy building, and he’s upset that one of his assistant coaches didn’t get the head coaching job’.

I offered my opinions as nothing more than food for thought and conversation. I thought that is what this blog was, in part, set up to do.

Try not to be such an ass. It’s not a good look for you.


November 5th, 2009 at 2:31 PM ^

The Rick Leach thing was a joke. Thus the "more seriously" part. It just SOUNDS like his baseless venom.

And if these so called "reliable sources" should be left to speak for themselves, why are you printing their emails without their permission? And if they have given you their permission, why won't they have the courage to put their name to it?

The problem is, you didn't offer you're opinion. You're welcome to do that. But to put hearsay out there, from people who may or may not be in the know that much (and from the content, as Jamiemac below questions, among a lot of other things which brings it into doubt), has no point but to create a flame war. One I wasn't going to get into by pointing out step by step inaccuracies and silliness in the statement. We've been there, done that. And as Jamiemac also said, I wasn't kinda hoping we were behind that.

If you have some view on something, opinion, thought, joke, feel free, post it. I can't stop you from doing the good or the bad, but I have no problem with your contribution. It's just stuff like this that we don't need anymore of.

At least until the time you have some facts and known sources, and less of the conspiracy stuff.


November 6th, 2009 at 11:23 PM ^

I've left you and your posts alone all over the board. (And trust me, it wasn't easy with your "short dong" post).

The difference being here is that what he's reporting is admittedly third hand at best. It's the email, sent to him by someone else, written by yet someone else, who may or may not have any real knowledge themselves.

My point came directly from the people who were recruiting him. And I didn't really think I was breaking any hot news that hasn't been rehashed many a time on this site. It's old news. And wasn't a hot pissing match on the site at the time.

One creates no controversy, the other does nothing but dig up controversy. Thought you were all in for Michigan?

I have no problem with some rumor, or sources...as long as they're not 8th hand, done without a lot of inflammatory hyperbole, and aren't out and out ridiculous. The former is what sites like this are part in parcel of. The later doesn't really do anyone any good.


November 5th, 2009 at 12:34 AM ^

The Lloyd Carr shadow government conspiracy meme is back.

Phew, I've been lonely without it that last week or so.

Yeah, thats right, Carr got Mallett and Boren to transfer to spite the school he loves and the new coach. Sure makes perfect sense to me.

How ridiculous.

Its one thing to blame him for recruiting circa 2004-2007. I think he admit it was subpar. Just look to his comments during his retirment pressser when he said there were just things he didnt have the energy for anymore. Thats about the recruiting trail.

But, this whole whisper campaign theory is bullcrap.

Johnny M Goblue

November 5th, 2009 at 10:06 AM ^

I hope so. I liked Lloyd and supported him throughout. My source has direct contact with former players that live and work in and around the program. I have more information, but I'm not at liberty to share (I received a copy of an email between former players. It wouldn't be fair for me to expose them without their permission and knowledge). One thing is for sure, it's not good for the program in any way - true or not true.


November 5th, 2009 at 2:35 PM ^

Other than you did expose what they said, supposedly, without their permission or knowledge. Do you not see the problem in that?

In any regard, if you're not sure if it's true or not true, and you do think it's bad for the program, why put it out there?

That's all I'm saying. If I was a little too snarky in my first post, I'm sorry. But it just seemed in this thread it had no point but to bring back up what we all thought was dead, and seemed trollish.


November 5th, 2009 at 4:16 PM ^

If Lloyd seriously was pushing and expected one of his assistants to get the head corching job, why did he make sure they all got an additional year on their contracts when he was not going to be around.

Seems like he knew they werent going to be serious candidates and made sure the school took care of him.

Furthermore, if there is any angst from folks who used to be in the program over Rodriguez, it is likely coming from the group of players from the late 1970s/early 1980s who remain miffed that Lester Miles is not the corch. I believe for UM captain Andy Canavinno has said on air he's still wondering why Miles isnt the corch.

Frankly, I find your story flat out BS. You're not a liberty to say, but just trust me its true. That's a load of crap.

And, as I demonstrated above, it takes about two seconds to create a conspiracy theory.

03 Blue 07

November 6th, 2009 at 2:29 PM ^

If I'm not mistaken, isn't he quoting what others have said- just passing it along? I, too, doubt that Lloyd did things such as "get Mallett and Boren to transfer," but wasn't the point of his post that there are former players/people around the program who BELIEVE that, even if it isn't true? That's what my takeaway was.

Side Note: I highly doubt Lloyd would do anything intentionally to hurt Michigan. By "highly doubt" I mean "no fucking way." I do not doubt, though, that when asked his opinions, he offered them, which may or may not have been the ultimate course of action taken by the decision makers (BM, MSC).