3FrenchToast

May 14th, 2011 at 9:37 PM ^

You know, Lloyd gets a lot of flack for his last few years, and probably a lot of it rightly so, but what he did for the program was...well, tremendous. It's lovely to see those numbers out there again, and to see a man who so boosted the program both on and off the field be rightfully recognized. Go Blue, and thanks, Coach Carr.

May the Mighty Hoke follow in your footsteps.

NoMoPincherBug

May 14th, 2011 at 11:00 PM ^

Your worthless opinion?  Can you prove that Carr 'sabotaged' the failed Rich Rod.

So going 6-18 in 3 years in the Big Ten and getting smoked repeatedly by OSU and in the one bowl game he limped his team to...going 0-9 vs. the top 3 BT rivals and generally running the program in to the grown...did not 'sabotage' Rich Rod of his own doing?

 

fuck enough with the spin already...makes me wanna puke people like you

BRCE

May 14th, 2011 at 11:23 PM ^

There are simply too many dots to connect on Carr and his people being a dick toward Rich Rod as well as being a coy wielder of behind the scenes politics. The most damning piece of "evidence" came in August of 2009 not by what was said, but what wasn't. You know exactly what I'm talking about. The silence was deafening and I will never forget nor forgive it.

So please save the accusations of crazy conspiratorial thinking. Carr did do a lot of great things at Michigan (mostly before Tressel entered the fray, unfortunately) and I understand it's a hard pill for many to swallow that he acted disloyally to the program, but I'd rather assume the obvious than have my head in the sand.

NoMoPincherBug

May 15th, 2011 at 12:33 AM ^

Lloyd Carr retired.  He gave 1 year notice and left the hiring of the new coach up to Bill Martin (who proceeded to fuck it up beyond belief).

When Rich Rod was hired, Lloyd attended the press conference.  Lloyd had great things to say about Rich Rod and he welcomed Rich Rod to attend practice for the bowl game and gave him total access and support for the program.

and then Lloyd Retired... moved on.

And Rich Rod proceeded with his little 'he said she said' Bullshit lawsuit with WVU...which was finally ended when the courts demanded that MSC and Martin testify... at which point Michigan said...'ok we pay and we are moving on' but Rich Rod didnt... he didnt get the team to play to any decent level at all and went 3-9... he ran Scott Shafer (a proven good DC) out of town and made him the scapegoat for 3-9 and required that Shafer sign documents stating that he will not get severance pay if he opens his mouth publically and disclose the hell that Rich Rod put him through.

Rod then proceeded to fuck up recruiting...recruiting kids that were too small for the Big Ten... or didnt qualify.... 30% of his last 2 classes didnt even qualify or bounced out before ever playing a down at Michigan.

Following on that Rod and his staff ignored many requests for documentation from compliance.... and that lead to the Freep Jihad... of which you SEEM to be alluding to??
 

And after all of that bullshit that Rod heaped on himself as well as other things like attrition...fucked on game day coaching decisions etc etc etc....you expected WHAT out of Lloyd Carr???  Some statement out of retirement to support Rod through NCAA investigations that Rod brought on...in addition to all of the other BS that Rod brought on????

WTF????  Carr did the classy thing and stayed out of it...he didnt bullshit and lie to the media...he kept silent...and for GREAT reason...no doubt he was burning inside at what a fucked up job Rod had done in the first 16 months to the program that Carr, Mo, and Bo had built over 40 years...

so he stayed silent....and you clueless conspiracy theorists blame Carr for some sort of conspiracy to oust Rod...when in reality if you had half a fucking clue you would know simply that ALL of the documented facts show clearly:

Rod fucked himself.  Period.

Space Coyote

May 15th, 2011 at 2:18 AM ^

Your history shows it.  Every comment you have is negative.  You call out other members.  You claim annoying memes when they are actually just clarifications.  You bad mouth Lloyd Carr numerous times in a thread about him going to the HOF.   You are not about being realistic, you are not trying to be down to earth, you are not bring a new point of view or adding anything meaningful.  You are about instigating with a bunch of BS and negative crap.  You are just a troll and that's it.

You say Lloyd sabotaged the program by staying silent.  Lloyd turned over the program to RR and thought it was best for him, RR, and the program to not speak up about a lot of things.  Did Lloyd want someone that he worked with and he was loyal to to head the program? I bet so.  I bet most of us would in that position.  Did he speak whenever he could to a media that he hated speaking to when he was a coach to "support" the program?  No, as most of us wouldn't if we were in similar shoes.  But every time he was asked he supported Michigan, which in the end was all the support RR needed from Lloyd.  And he always supported his players.  And he did great things as a coach, and he has continued to do great things for U of M and Motts, etc.  

It wasn't Lloyd that sabotaged the program.  A lot of it RR put on himself.  Much of it, to be honost, is the fans fault.  But the only reason the fans were angry is because RR failed to get victories.  It is a big cycle of unbeneficial behavior, none of which has to do with Lloyd.

I know you claim Lloyd just hated RR and wanted the program to die because of the RR hire, but that isn't the case.  If Lloyd was only loyal to his assistants and stuff, then he probably would have not been at RR hire press conference and would have been at Hoke's, aka, one of his assistants.

Lloyd Carr loves Michigan, he loves the program and the players.  He also doesn't like the spot light.  He also doesn't want to make the program about him.  The program is under a new head, and he understands and respects that.  He understands that the program is bigger than him.  He didn't sabotage the program. RR didn't sabotage the program.  Both wanted what was best for the program and they did that the best way they could.  One succeeded, one didn't as much, but both wanted it.

It's you that needs to check yourself.

BRCE

May 15th, 2011 at 2:32 AM ^

I am not a troll because you don't like my POV. You and others are getting indignant on a message board because the thread hasn't been a total stroke-fest. If you are expecting perfect decorum and attitudes that are in line with yours, cancel your account. You'll never find that anywhere on the internet.

I never used the word "sabotage." I thought it was an act of disloyalty. Perhaps you don't remember what that week was like. Michigan football was under attack, leading Sportscenter for truly one of the flimsiest "scandals" anyone had ever seen after the Freep's hitjob. When Jim Tressel says a nice word about you and your ex-coach doesn't, it's noticeable.

You and others are making it out like "talking to the media" was this painful backbreaking chore. If that's how Lloyd saw it, he never should have been a head coach to begin with. Simply offering a quick statement when everyone was waiting for it would have done wonders. That you are asking me to believe the reason he didn't offer a statement is because "he didn't like talking to the media" and that even in a time of relative crisis, he would not break this mythical personal policy you speak of, is frankly insulting to my intelligence.

I am not saying there is nothing positive about Lloyd. I do think there were a lot of problems with his program that got worse in the latter half of his career and I obviously suspect some less-than-noble behavior in the years following his retirement. Lloyd aside, I think many of his ardent fans and a lot of his former players are delusional about how much of Michigan's recent struggles fall on Lloyd (more than a little, in my opinion). Therefore, I don't care to see the guy universally fluffed.

MGlobules

May 15th, 2011 at 8:06 AM ^

as a Lloyd-lover and a person who really really wanted RR to succeed (and was angry at how the transition went down), I stand in the middle here. As I've said elsewhere, being ambivalent is not evidence. I don't see it as impossible that he torpedoed Rich, but from what I've seen over several years, no court even hears your case. Time to put up or shut up. 

Space Coyote

May 15th, 2011 at 9:54 AM ^

He sad as much and got tired of asking the same old question.  He not only didn't like the media, he didn't want the spotlight because he respected the fact that it wasn't his program anymore, it was RR's.

 

Also, I don't like your POV.  But I explained why me not liking your POV doesn't make you a troll.  The way you go about saying the things you say makes you a troll.  I say lots of contrary things around here, but there is a difference between that and trolling.  People are open to contrary things, not what you do.

BRCE

May 15th, 2011 at 3:52 PM ^

Wait, I'm confused. I thought Lloyd Carr made a lifelong commitment to never talk to the media again.

Listen, I've seen that video. I didn't feel real comfortable with how uncomfortable Lloyd was. "Let's change the topic." Similarly, when Mike Stone asked him last year about the diviseness in the family, Carr merely said "You're getting into territory I'm not comfortable discussing."

It's being coy.

Space Coyote

May 15th, 2011 at 4:25 PM ^

When he has, he has always been supportive of the coach and the program.  Usually when he has, it has also been with the main purpose to put the word out for Motts.  He understands some other questions will be asked in order for him to get out what he wants to get out, and he has always answered those questions with support.  Not wanting to have to rephrase and continue repeating himself in his support is a valid reason to say "let's move on" because, besides it being annoying for him, he also has more important things to talk about.

I'm done responding to your posts on this thread now, because stupidly, I am only feeding a troll.  I think there is a fair amount of agreement as to what is considered trolling around here and I've said what I feel I've had to say.  Instead of proving to be anything better than a troll, you have continued to attack other members of the board, continued to try to emphasize how your opinion and subjectivity is superior to others around here, and hinted at the fact that you are the only one who is capable of individual thought.  

You have done nothing more than go by your gut feeling and complete rumor that Carr tried to submarine the program.  You have made no valid arguments other than justifying what you've said based on things that can be seen as otherwise.  When video evidence is shown, you quickly try to twist others words to ruin their credibility by saying things such as "but I thought Carr took a vow never to speak to the media again."  That's not debating.  That is you trying to twist people words and never bringing up any evidence of your argument because it has no validity.

chitownblue2

May 15th, 2011 at 10:19 AM ^

Carr earned blame for his bad years in 2005 and 2007, justifiably.
<br>
<br>But this retroactive attempt to blame Carr for the struggles of Rodriguez is absurd. I supported both - I wrote for a website that vehemently defended Rodriguez.
<br>
<br>But let's be clear: Rodriguez is not coach anymore because he failed tongued a defense. Because he inherited 9 returning starters from a top 30 defense (what we were in 2007), and drove them to 70th in one year. Because he visibly undermined a coach who has since been validated as good, and replaced him with a gross incompetent.
<br>
<br>You and others like the esteemed Tater can post and post about back-room politics and press statements made or not made, but Lloyd didn't do a thing to destroy that defense - and that defense, and the losses it produced in 2009 and 2010, are why Rodriguez is no longer coach.
<br>
<br>That is a fucking fact.

BRCE

May 15th, 2011 at 2:27 PM ^

Contrary to words being put in my typing fingers, I do NOT blame Carr for RR failing. I am fully aware that the handling of the defense was RR's biggest failing and he DID deserve to get fired for it.

I simply think that (1) the way Carr acted (or was rumored to act by a group of people that I think is too large to classify as "tin-foil fat") gives me severe pause as to what a supposedly classy guy he is and (2) pointing out that the latter half of his career on the field contributed heavily to the lack of luster on Michigan football, something that too many attribute almost completely to RR.

It's a message board. These are my opinions. Some of you are reacting as if I'm a wrestling heel whose music hit while Lloyd was giving his HOF acceptance speech at a banquet.

 

chitownblue2

May 15th, 2011 at 4:17 PM ^

By "lack of luster", you must mean the 3 BCS games in his final 6 years. Embarrassing, that.
<br>
<br>He lost his final four matchups to OSU - a team we've since learned probably wasn't on the up and up.
<br>
<br>As for your allegation that he was anti-Rodriguez, you are looking at a vacuum of evidence, and attempting to say it means something, no matter how many "dots" you insist you see in the abyss.
<br>
<br>As for you being a wrestling heel, that's precisely what you're doing. Responding to six comments in this thread - with the same horseshit, then turning with this po-faced "what'd I do?" - please. Your actios here, and on this board in general make your priorities clear. I'm sure you're enjoying this.

BRCE

May 15th, 2011 at 4:57 PM ^

You did not just make the stretch of excusing his losses to Ohio State because of this Tressel cover-up scandal. I know you didn't just go there.

I mean, could you be any more of an apologist than that? That is so wishy-washy and homerific it isn't even funny.

 

chitownblue2

May 15th, 2011 at 5:02 PM ^

Given the "facts" and "evidence" you've marshalled to paint Carr as a conspirator, you referring to anything as "wishy-washy" is the height of a lack of self-awareness, or, more likely, just extremely disingenuous.
<br>
<br>At least there's a shred of evidence to support my point. All you do is reply to video clips with "he didn't mean that".

chitownblue2

May 15th, 2011 at 5:25 PM ^

You're shifting the goalposts. Did I argue, ever, that he coached well in 2004 or 2006 OSU? That has nothing to do with a thing I said.
<br>
<br>You think his results tarnished the program. I pointed out 3 BCS games in his final 6 years (a good rate). You refused to address that.
<br>
<br>You allege that he was an anti-Rodriguez conspirator. I point out that you haven't had a shred of evidence to support this - only fewer public statements than you deem satisfying. Again, no response to this.
<br>
<br>Now what do we get? Tress out-coached him twice? You're a drowning man clutching at driftwood.

BRCE

May 15th, 2011 at 5:47 PM ^

Moving the goalposts. That's what you did when you had to attach "a team we now know was probably not on the up-and-up" on the fact that Carr couldn't beat Ohio State toward the end.

Tressel outcoached Lloyd more than twice. You saw the games. That we had a combined five TO advantage in '05 and '06 and still lost both games is nothing short of a statistical marvel for anyone who has studied the impact of turnovers in wins and losses. It was a testament to how badly we were outschemed. The man is dirty but several times with equal or even inferior teams, he clearly had his teams better prepared for that game than LC did, harming Carr's legacy in the process.

Why is this so hard to admit?

 

chitownblue2

May 15th, 2011 at 6:01 PM ^

I have no problem admitting that. The only reason I haven't is because this is the first fucking time you SAID that. You started out this thread discussing his character and how he tarnished Michigan football.
<br>
<br>The character part is baseless, and I guess you and I disagree on whether the four losses to OSU (despite 2 BCS appearances in the time) tarnished Michigan football.

BRCE

May 15th, 2011 at 6:14 PM ^

It's more than just four straight -- don't frame it that way. It was six of seven and it got a ball rolling that hasn't stopped. By the time Carr retired, a recruiting and talent gap had been created and then widened to the point where it nows stands at nine of 10 losses. Tressel doesn't have to outscheme us anymore. The last few years he's been on cruise control.

That is totally unprecedented OSU dominance in this rivalry. So yeah, I'd say it has tarnished Michigan football just a bit. Hard to believe anyone would disagree.

 

 

 

BRCE

May 15th, 2011 at 9:39 PM ^

I don't directly hold him responsible, but he does shoulder some of the blame for the gap being so wide right now. He just does.

I never thought I'd see the day where not only we would lose like this to Ohio State and actually have fans insist it's not that big of a deal. Clearly, you're a Decatur Clan member.

Magnum P.I.

May 15th, 2011 at 1:06 AM ^

Yeah, Lloyd Carr is a real asshole. Got a floor named after him at a children's hospital due to his selfless commitment to that place. Real jerk. Mobilized hundreds of his players to support a cause bigger than themselves, so much that they're still invested years after leaving U-M. But a real asshole. Brought the only national championship to U-M in most of our lifetimes. Doesn't give a shit about the school, though. 

Look, Lloyd Carr is a great man, coach, and scholar who has done more for the University of Michigan than almost anyone alive right now, and certainly more than any football coach alive right now. I'm sure he'll have a hard time getting over the fact that you'll never forgive him for not breaking with his lifelong habit of avoiding the media in order to . . . do what again? 

BRCE

May 15th, 2011 at 2:30 PM ^

Lloyd Carr is NOT Michigan. There seems to be some confusion on that these days.

More of a Rich Rodriguez fan? I endorsed his firing after the Ohio State game. Hell, our own athletic director thought he deserved to be fired and was also pissed off about the way he was treated. It's possible to have both those opinions.

Sorry, I am not Section1.

 

 

chitownblue2

May 15th, 2011 at 10:24 AM ^

Did Lloyd force him to take a top 30 defense, returning 9 starters, to 70th in one year? To visibly undermine his DC? To replace that DC with a gross incompetent?
<br>
<br>Rodriguez's "defense" is why he's not the coach. Carr had nothing to do with that.

gajensen

May 14th, 2011 at 9:38 PM ^

Just because I like to see it in writing:

122-40 overall record.
81-23 in the conference.
Never missed a bowl game.
Won a national championship.
Won five conference titles.
Michigan man.

Congratulations, Lloyd!

BRCE

May 14th, 2011 at 11:33 PM ^

1-6 vs. Tressel.

Lost five of final six bowl games.

Lost to Appalachian State.

Six straight losses in road openers, allowing the program to seriously contend for a BCS title game appearance just once in ten years.

Lightning rod for criticism among a sizeable portion of the fanbase for his heavily-rumored lack of support (if not submarining) of his successor.

I am afraid there are two parts to the legacy.

 

 

 

 

BRCE

May 15th, 2011 at 1:35 AM ^

Calling for bans. It's something rational posters on message boards do.

I'm simply pointing out that it's a mixed legacy. You aren't going to find a thread about Lloyd Carr anytime soon without at least some people who don't feel comfortable waxing poetic about him.

Space Coyote

May 15th, 2011 at 2:15 AM ^

There's a difference between pointing out a mixed legacy and being a troll.  Pointing out a mixed legacy sounds respectful, especially when considering it's a thread about Lloyd going to the HOF.  It means saying he did some really great things, but also had some shortcomings.  I don't think there are many people claiming Lloyd was a perfect coach, including me, someone who has always supported Coach Carr.

What you're doing isn't pointing to a mixed legacy.  What you're doing is spinning a positive thread negatively to get people angry.  You are trolling.  You are making it sound as if Carr was terrible for the program, was a terrible coach, etc., which is far from the truth.

You can debate how he handled the RR hire.  You can debate his degree of success toward the end of his tenure.  But he was successful, and he has always been a great ambassodor for Michigan and its football program.  

Your comments are just trolling, and trolls should be banned.  Your history shows the same type of trolling.  I feel I have been an objective poster, and my history shows as much.  But there's a big difference between being objective and what you're doing.  Most of us are up for even-minded thinking, pointing out a mixed legacy, or being respectfully of the other opinion.  You have proven to do none of those.  You have only proven to be a troll.