If the B10 were to go to 14 teams, why not add the service academies?

Submitted by Communist Football on

According to MGoComrade SeniorBearcat, Dave Brandon said today that he could see the Big Ten expanding to 14 teams over the next few years:

DB sees the Big 10 at 14 teams in the next couple of years, with 16 teams being possible. Only big name teams that have a large market share / successful in sports and in academics. He did not name names, but mentioned only a few schools fit that profile.

If this is true, what could the teams be? Going by big market share in athletics and academics, and geographic contiguity, other than ND, who makes the cut?

With Nebraska in the fold, the geographically contiguous states are: Wyoming, South Dakota, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Kentucky, West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, New Jersey, and New York.

Here are the I-A (FBS) teams in each of these contiguous states (I am assuming that the Big Ten will not seek to add a team in an existing Big Ten state, because the idea is to expand the television footprint):

WY: Wyoming

SD: None

CO: Colorado, Colorado State, Air Force

KS: Kansas, Kansas State

MO: Missouri

KY: Kentucky, Western Kentucky, Louisville

WV: West Virginia, Marshall

MD: Maryland, Navy

DE: None

NJ: Rutgers

NY: Syracuse, Buffalo, Army

Of these schools, the remotely plausible candidates are Kansas, Missouri, Kentucky, West Virginia, Maryland, Rutgers, Syracuse, and the service academies.

Strong athletics (FB or BB): Kansas, Missouri, Kentucky, WVU

Strong academics: Army, Navy, Air Force

Decent TV markets: Missouri, Maryland, Rutgers, Syracuse, Army, Navy, Air Force

Now I know that they don't have the most powerful programs anymore, but how cool would it be to add Army and Navy to the Big Ten? Two old-time college football powers in major East Coast states. Awesome academics and premier research institutions. High-character institutions. Air Force could also fit this bill, but it's a smaller TV market than New York or the DC area.

What say you, Comrades?

Wolverine318

November 24th, 2010 at 7:10 AM ^

To play devil's advocate, then why are we considering ND. ND's graduate research for the most part is a joke. Sure, ND has a great MBA and law school, but I would hardly consider their applied and fundamental graduate research programs up to the same quality as MSU. 

Don't even bring up US News rankings into this conversation. The US News ranking methodology does not even take into important research metrics such as impact factor, average tenure track faculty funding level, and average number of published citations per faculty member. 

MGoCards

November 24th, 2010 at 8:08 AM ^

As a graduate institution, ND has ramped up its aspirations over two decades or so and have really accelerated them in the Jenkins era. They've made a lot of new hires, have made new positions (in some fields where other schools are eliminating positions), and have increased their research budget substantially. Meanwhile, they've done a few things to create more space between their school and the church's political arm, making their university a bit more hospitable to faculty who happen to not fall in line with the mandates of the church. They're not an AAU member, and membership is probably a little ways off, but it's not fair to treat ND as if its graduate research is a joke. If you go by the ARWU rankings, which basically only look at research metrics, Notre Dame is not an elite research school in the US, and doesn't compare to any B10 schools,  but it does compare favorably, at this point, to some AAU member schools (like Kansas and SUNY-Buffalo) (source). But it's not a joke, per se. 

justingoblue

December 1st, 2010 at 2:16 PM ^

If Notre Dame got an invite, it would have very little to do with the quality of research that goes on there. They have a huge endowment for that.

Plus, the reason the Big Ten would take them has little to do with academics and a lot to do with the zillion dollars they would bring in. Nebraksa isn't full of groundbreaking ivy tower research either, but they sure can sell tickets and BTN subscriptions.

maiznblue

November 23rd, 2010 at 9:31 PM ^

Personally I just wouldn't want to see that. I want to get better teams. I can understand your reasoning and I respect what you're saying but I'd rather have teams join the big ten that are better than that in football.

rlew

November 23rd, 2010 at 9:31 PM ^

They'd be doormats at everything but football.  And, while Army has a coaching staff that may have the tools to finally turn them around, only Navy football would be competitive.  It's just not a good athletic fit, let alone cultural fit.

Vasav

November 23rd, 2010 at 9:37 PM ^

The Zoomies beat us in hockey a few years ago in the NCAA tournament, and I feel like they're very competitive in non-revenue sports. Does anybody have any info?

Still, I hate the idea of further expansion, unless it puts us and OSU in the same division - but somehow I think there'd be a greater chance of moving the Game than of them putting us together.

aaamichfan

November 23rd, 2010 at 9:31 PM ^

I'm not sure the service academies fulfill the "Large market share" requirement. The Army-Navy game draws a large viewing audience, but I really don't think many people would purchase the B10 Network to follow these teams.

joeyb

November 24th, 2010 at 11:54 AM ^

The goal isn't to get people to purchase it. The goal is to get it as a standard part of basic cable across the US. How do you do that? You get many teams that have Alumni across the US and convince cable providers that enough of the population wants the channel so they should add it.

I still don't think Army and Navy will hell achieve this goal, but it's worth noting what they are actually trying to accomplish.

Monocle Smile

November 23rd, 2010 at 9:37 PM ^

How much did you read about the latest expansion? We didn't take Rutgers for two primary reasons:

1) They kind of suck. In general.

2) The New York market is already as captured as it is going to get. The Big Ten Network already exists out east and the vast majority of college sports fans in New York are either Big Ten or SEC alum, according to locals on this board.

Army and Navy would also never, ever join the CIC. One of the perks of the Big Ten is the ability to pool research resources and fund cross-campus projects and ideas. The service academies would still be extremely exclusive for security reasons.

Monocle Smile

November 23rd, 2010 at 10:53 PM ^

Only if people in said state care about college sports and/or are fans of a Big Ten team. Name a New York school with a Big Ten-size football fan base.

All I've heard from the New Yorkers on this board is that most New Yorkers either don't care about college sports, already have BTN because they root for a Big Ten team, or are SEC alumni.

Communist Football

November 24th, 2010 at 9:09 AM ^

The BTN gets 88 cents per subscriber per month inside its eight-state footprint and 5 cents per subscriber per month outside those eight states.

If the Big Ten were to add a New York State team such as Army or Syracuse, the fees the BTN would collect from New York cable subscribers would jump from the 5 cent level to the 88 cent level.

If we assume that there are 8 million cable subscribers in New York State, that's a $79.7 million annual increase in BTN revenues. Hence, adding a New York team to the Big Ten would increase BTN revenues by more than one-third.

Hardware Sushi

November 24th, 2010 at 11:39 AM ^

Sorry, but I don't believe it would work that way. There is a difference between market size, penetration, and demand. Market size, which you use for your values, is indeed huge in New York state, as well as New Jersey.

While they have incredible numbers of households that pay for cable television, the Big Ten Network would need to give the cable companies a reason to pay 88 cents per month, namely a team that drives interest and passion among those cable customers. The reason the BTN can charge 88 cents in the BTN footprint is because the fanbases in the footprint absolutely LOVE their college football and/or basketball teams.

A perfect example is Nebraska. While having a dramatically lower population than, say, New Jersey, Cornhusker fans are gaga over their football team. Many of the current shell out $35-$70 just to watch a game via pay-per-view. I have no idea what the particulars are, but I wouldn't be surprised if the cable providers in Nebraska are paying north of $1 per household for the BTN because of that rabid passion. If they didn't offer the BTN, you can assume the large number of rabid Cornhusker fans would take their dollars and get Dish Network or a competing cable provider that has the BTN.

New York and New Jersey, on the other hand, are a combination of the following factors: 1.) They don't have a large, rabid, college football fanbase with a local winner, 2.) Have a wealth of professional alternatives within a 50-mile radius (2 NFL, 2 MLB, 2 NBA, 3 NHL) and 3.) Are made up of a hodge-podge of transplants from across New England, Big Ten, ACC and small private school footprints. That's why, IMHO, I still believe that if the Big Ten goes after NYC/NJ, it will be based on an aggregate interest in the Big Ten. By using a team like Rutgers, combined with schools like Michigan, Penn State, OSU, Nebraska, and Syracuse, you can sell big time college football to New Yorkers. It is also why I think ND has to be on-board before Rutgers gets any serious thought from the Big Ten.

Even at that point, I don't see our subscriber fees jumping anywhere near the levels for the current BTN footprint. The YES (Yankees) Network, covering the most popular pro sports franchise in the region, with live game content roughly 5 out of 7 days a week during the season, still had a helluva time getting rates they found acceptable. I think the population numbers are great, and combined that with a discounted subscriber fee, can still financially warrant expansion, but it's not a slam dunk where we can just multiply average fees by households. Apologies for the lengthy post.

genericmichiganfan

November 23rd, 2010 at 9:38 PM ^

Because they would add nothing to the conference revenue-wise. Nebraska basically paid for itself and more with the Big Ten championship game alone. Every team you add in the future has to bring enough of a market/interest/revenue to make up for the fact that you're adding another slice to the pie. It would make zero sense to add anybody unless it's a big-time program like Notre Dame.

PurpleStuff

November 23rd, 2010 at 9:48 PM ^

They've got a decent sized state all to themselves (the Tigers are actually kind of a big deal there too from what I've gathered on brief stops there), you get built in rivalries with Illinois and Nebraska, and they seemed to be pretty solid from a money/facilities/programs/academics perspective from what I remember.

They won't get added on their own, but I think they're the logical pick if we pair somebody with ND and they would definitely jump at the chance.

antoo

November 23rd, 2010 at 10:13 PM ^

I drove through the Ozarks by myself not that long ago.  I can honestly say having to stop at a gas station a half mile from the highway was one of the scariest moments of my life.  I blame my father for letting me watch Deliverance as a child.

PurpleStuff

November 23rd, 2010 at 9:39 PM ^

I think we're at a point where if ND wants to join we'll go out and grab another school (probably Missouri) to even things out.  I don't see any other schools out there (as in actually available, unlike Texas or something) that would raise the bar in terms of athletics, academics, or TV money.  Nobody else matches the "super special school" requirement as far as I can see.

seniorbearcat

November 24th, 2010 at 10:26 AM ^

That is kind of how I read it when he said it yesterday.

Notre Dame along with another school is the vibe I got...obviously Texas would be a slam dunk but I do not think that is realistic. He did seem pretty confident that within the next couple of years there will be 14 B10 teams FWIW...said something along the lines of  the opportunity for Nebraska was huge and they were a team to take right away. 

mGrowOld

November 23rd, 2010 at 9:42 PM ^

If we take the three service academies all we need to do to get  USC and BC to join. At that point we'll have the entire freaking Notre Dame schedule as part of the league.

Talk about a flanking manuver.   The service academies would be proud!

yahwrite

November 23rd, 2010 at 9:58 PM ^

Just when I was finally conquering my conference expansion speculation addiction - this happens.

I doubt the service academies would join. FWIW, if Maryland joined Virginia becomes contiguous. Also, adding lacrosse gets me thinking Syracuse may be on the horizon.

I have a feeling Wisconsin knows their football spot in the "East" division is temporary.

ST3

November 23rd, 2010 at 9:59 PM ^

Since we're talking service academies, I'd like to see them be a little more relevant like they were in the old days. When was the last time one was even ranked? Maybe Navy or Air Force has been in the 20-25 range now and then, but really, the Army-Navy game gets scheduled in December when almost no one else is playing so they can get on TV.

Here's my idea, too crazy for it's own post, but like I said, we're talking service academies in this post. What if we formed a 33rd NFL team composed of alumni from the service academies? They would play half of the other 32 NFL teams one season, and half the next. All of their games would be road games. When they came to your town, it would be a huge recruiting event for the military. They would probably get better players knowing that they had an NFL career as a possibility. Let's say they play 4 or 5 years for the U.S. Armed Forces, or whatever we call them, and then they can be free agents and sign with other teams after that. Maybe you also let the U.S. team participate in the regular NFL draft if they aren't competitive enough with just service academy types. I know I would be psyched to see, no wait a minute, I live in Los Angeles. We need to get our own team first.

Syyk

November 24th, 2010 at 12:44 AM ^

I understand that this is a completely pie in the sky idea, but I just can't see how it would work from any angle.

For one thing, the team wouldn't be good enough to compete against the NFL.  An NFL team composed completely of players from any three college football teams would be tough to create in the first place, much less smaller schools like the service academies.

Also, not playing any home teams would be a large disadvantage and structurally it just doesn't work.  Is it just an exhibition team?  Can they make the playoffs?  I would imagine it would also be tough to fit into the current NFL schedule.

Beyond that, though, I don't really think the service academies would really go for it.  It would be destroying the very fabric of the football team's identity.  The whole point is that these teams are composed of cadets who are going to serve in the armed forces.  I understand the recruiting argument, but it does away with the entire tradition of the teams.

Ignoring the fact that neither the NFL nor the schools would want it, it's an answer to a problem that doesn't exist.

ST3

November 24th, 2010 at 8:04 PM ^

There are at least two problems that exist as I see it. The service academies are fielding football teams, and I'd assume, they want them to be competitive. As an American, I have pride in the Army, Navy, and Air Force. When those schools football teams are going 1-10, or 3-8, I still have pride in them, I just don't care about their football teams. I think that's a problem. We've all seen the Marines commercials where the guys are D&D warriors who transmorph into Marines. We've all heard stories about how entrance standards to the armed services had to be lowered to meet recruiting goals. Now, let's consider a USA football team touring the country. The players visit your city and recruit kids for the military. Maybe the team even makes some money through TV deals, saving the country some taxpayer dollars. Granted, this is a minor point, but we are spending $700B or so on the military every year. Why should we be paying taxpayer dollars to recruit kids into the military when a well publicized, competitive football team could do the trick.

The NFL doesn't have a problem, but here is an untapped opportunity. Every year we see baseball teams wearing red white and blue hats. Heck, even UofM went with the Red, White, and Blue coaches hats this year. Can you even begin to imagine how many TEAM USA football jerseys or hats they could sell? The NFL gets a cut, and the country gets a cut.

Scheduling wise, it's a no-brainer. They play in one league one year, the other the next. One team in the league they are in gets a bye each week. The owners get another home game that year. More bucks for the owners, I think they like that.

Starting off, yeah, it could get ugly with only 3 teams to draw from. So maybe we start just playing exhibitions or pre-season games like the globe-trotters, and figure out the right mix to get a competitive TEAM USA. Let's think out of the box and do something for the Country! Who is with me?