Horford opens up on reasons for transfer; knows McGary decision
Really interesting read from MLive here: http://www.mlive.com/wolverines/index.ssf/2014/04/michigan_jon_horford_…
Not intended exclusively for you, but I think we're nitpicking his comments a little too much. I don't think Horford realized how much the blogosphere would dissect that sentence when he said it. He probably thought it was a neutral truth that answered the question and left the meat to his friend and teammate.
If I am ever interviewed, I'm totally hiring a focus group beforehand. Too much analysis on the word choice of Horford, Hoke, etc.. etc..
Good luck to Horford. I'm all for him trying to find playing time.
However, I also feel that the team with or without Horford wouldn't look or perform much different.
...he was playing like shit at the end of the year.
He wasn't complaining last year when he was starting over Mitch AND McGary. Or the bigging of this year when he and J-Mo were playing 20 minutes a game each.
What did everyone call them? "Morford?"
So clearly he was getting the time when he was playing well. His game went south, it happens, and unfortunately it was when we couldn't afford to wait for him to get it back...just like J-Mo last year.
Maybe if he struggled in the beginning of the year like Walton or in the middle of the year like Stauskas we could've stuck with him. Not during tournament time. Lose and you're done. You don't have time to "work things out" while getting blown out @ Iowa like we did for Nik.
I have no doubt he worked his ass off, Dan Dakich RAVES about how he always puts in the extra work.
If he does that for a summer, in this offense which is a DREAM for ONE post player (not two)...he could've been playing many minutes AND significant minutes.
I think he could've started next to McGary, but even if he didn't...McGary can't play ALL the minutes. He would've gotten his 16-17 minutes a game that he's referring to. Easily.
Yep. Played poorly most of the year, yet his dad thinks he's the second coming of Al Horford. That's just objectively off-base and very unhelpful for the kid. He's a servicable player but as much as me, and any UM fan, wishes otherwise, he's not NBA material.
He had plenty of time over 4 years both in practice and in games to become a good, big time player. But he wasn't able to accomplish it. Transferring somewhere else will not by itself make him NBA material. Right now, he just doesn't have the skill set to make it in the NBA. He isn't aggressive enough in the paint and has no jump shot from any range. However, I still wish him luck and am grateful he contributed a lot to the team for the last 4 years.
Game just went to shit in the last few regular season games and continues through most of the tourney run.
Zak and Irvin is WAAAY better.
And was a bit lucky, as Mitch didn't even pick up the footwork until after the last practice before that game when they went back out there and it finally clicked. Against a 2-3 you're going to have someone in that hole in the defense, that wasn't standard operating procedure.
Though in the end I agree with your point, if you're skilled enough at scoring Beilein will get you the ball. I just don't think Mitch's overall skill at that point last year was the main reason he got the ball. Against man-to-man teams, the game still ran through the guards, as it did this year, because that's where the most skill was.
talk about possible destinations or good fits for Jon? Seems like he (and his family) are looking for an offense that features low post more, I gather?
I don't know enough about what programs may have room next year and run something more along the lines he's looking for.
Anyway, always seemed like a great kid. Wish him success.
I don't know if it's possible to have a better exit than that, from Jon's perspective or Michigan's. He was completely transparent about the reasons he was leaving -- now we all know. He cited the offense, but said that a traditional big could definitely be successful given the opportunity. He said that he was when he had the minutes. He said that the coaches developed his talent, and he's ready to show it where the coaches trust him (I read: where competition for the 1 'true post' spot is a little thinner). He praises the coaches, his teammates, and the university. The coaches look extra classy in the whole ordeal. Horford is following his heart (and unfortunately, his handlers advice for 4 years(!). I admire his patience if that is the truth).
I expected to think it might knick our ability to recruit given his "fit" comments, but honestly I don't believe it will. We'll use one "true" post, and there's room for that -- McGary, Doyle, Zimmerman, Stone, whoever. The other big will always be a "stretch" guy. Hopefully bigger than what we've had in Novak and GRIII, but Donnal and DJ Wilson are the ideal fits there. There's nothing damning about the 4 in this offense.
I guess what I'm saying in many words is that Horford is leaving with extreme grace. Injuries and JMo ultimately put a cap on what he could personally accomplish at UofM (and to some extend fit), but he'll leave with a lot of memories, TEAM success, and a degree. Very happy for Jon Horford and can't wait to still what he can do elsewhere. I can see him landing at Big East or AAC school for sure.
...but wasn't J-Mo pretty successful this year in this offense?
If we beat L'ville McGary is tournament MVP in this offense - he was putting up numbers bigs across the country would KILL for.
I don't think TWO traditional bigs can be successful on the floor at the same time (for an entire season)...but one sure can. And even if Mitch comes back. Horford could easily get 17-20 minutes a game in this offense and perform quite well.
Hell JON HORFORD was performing exceptionally well in this offense. Remember MORFORD?
Every single game people would put up their combined stats vs. McGary and they were better. Horford was playing OUTSTANDING basketball.
So he cited his reasons, but I just disagree with them. I don't disagree with the transfer, do what's best for you. But I don't think his reasoning is valid because there is factual information to dispute it...and HE was part of that information until his game struggled at the end of the year.
Read my comments (and the article) again. He did say that JMo was successful and Mitch was too. He just said he didn't have the opportunity to build his own confidence because there weren't enough minutes available for HIM in our current landscape. Although he cited fit, he didn't damn it. You can do it, he said he did it when he got extended minutes. It's just an issue of Horford being the type of guy that thrives off PT to "warm up." I have no issue with that, it's usually true for most guys (see JMo 13-14, 12-13 vs. late 11-12, McGary in tourney). My only rebuttal would be that he staggered his own minutes by picking up cheap fouls.
On a different note; feels like we're all forgetting about Max Beifeldt. Sure, he's six foot seven or eight and stocky...but he looks a lot like Jordan Morgan. I don't think that Morgan's trajectory would be much different than Max's if he wasn't thrust into the fire as an underclassman with creative guards.
Max has had his moments as a rebounder and defender. Like Jon is implying, players tend to grow more when their responsibility grow. I wouldn't be surprised to see Max become an effective rotation player, JMo-lite, moving forward. My only complaint of him is that he needs to stop chucking threes.
April 11th, 2014 at 11:32 PM ^
And not nearly the post player of Morgan.
Much better outside shooter, but we don't need anymore of that.
Morgan at Max B's "age" showed flashes of what he brought this year, but he also missed a million layups and had hands of stone.
I'm not sure Max B has ever even dunked in a game since he's been at Michigan.
"What was limited was my opportunity to have experiences crucial to players to gain the confidence and the feel that they need to have success on the highest level."
Horford is very introspective, and introspective people need opportunities to gain confidence a lot of the time. It doesn't just happen, it doesn't happen from other things or because it happened to other people (J. Mo), they need tangible things because they over think everything, dwell on things, and feed off of truths (for a lack of non-stereotypical verbiage). I really think Horford needed to find confidence, and he wasn't finding it at Michigan in the past and I don't think he felt he was going to if he stuck around.
"introspective people need opportunities to gain confidence a lot of the time."
I totally agree. Of course, that also correlates with the reality that VERY few introspective people are capable of being high level competitive athletes.
this is pretty surprising stuff. putting the tea leaves aside, horford is basically saying that he thinks a big man can't succeed in beilein's offense. now i don't think that's true, but it also isn't a good thing to say to the press. certainly would hurt recruting.
also surprising is that his family has been pressing him to transfer for years. sounds to me like it's a family full of basketball skill that can't accept that this particular family member isn't as skilled as the others.
horford also is basically saying that he has to play enough minutes on the court to make mistakes and be left out there to learn from those mistakes instead of getting pulled, which he often was (often for foul trouble, which won't change no matter where he plays). i don't buy what he's selling. the time to learn is practice. coach is putting the players out there who won't make mistakes and if the coach feels that those players can overcome those mistakes more quickly than horford or during practice instead of a game time then those players deserve time instead of horford. i can't imagine that he'll find a coach who approaches things differently at any other school.
I think he said that bigs can have success in Beilein's system, there is just very limited opportunities for them to do so. So they have to perform at a high level right away, because there is only one big on the floor at a time (meaning pretty much only two bigs will play in a game, and the hot hand will get the majority of minutes, a la Morgan this year, Mitch last year). I think there is truth in that. Horford is saying that he needs an opportunity to fail and still be trusted to get minutes, which won't happen at this point in his career in Beilein's system probably, though I think he'd get more of that opportunity next year if he stayed.
That said, as I said elsewhere, I think this is a confidence thing.
I think even beyond the amount of touches and scoring chances the bigs get, Horford wants the chance to actually post-up and have an opportunity to hang on to the ball and make a play (or fail trying). That just wasn't/isn't going to happen here, because of both the system and the surrounding talent. Having Trey/THJ/Nik/GRIII/Walton/Irvin etc. stand around while Horford gains confidence and goes through his growing pains as a post player would have been bad for business.
He seems to think that is his ticket to an NBA shot. Hopefully he gets an opportunity to do that, though I don't know of many schools (especially not ones that are winning many games) that would take a one year guy without much prior pedigree and give him that shot. Maybe a rebuilding program like USC (who sees their top two C's graduate and has a very young team otherwise)?
April 12th, 2014 at 12:46 AM ^
but has he watched the NBA lately? That isn't exactly how most NBA teams play ball these days either. The days of dumping the ball into your center and watching him back a guy down for 5 seconds ended a while ago.
Horford cited Trey Burke, Tim Hardaway Jr., Nik Stauskas, Glenn Robinson III and Mitch McGary as all having gone through "phases like that." "You have to go through that in order to reach the level that they're at now," Horford said. "They're all NBA players."
This leads me to believe Stauskas, GRIII and McGary are all gone, given Horford's comment that he knows McGary's decision.
"They just felt that it's a system that's difficult for big men to have success, especially when compared to the guards,"
That's a quote from Jon about why his family wants him to transfer. Did they not notice that Mitch may have been a 1st round pick last season and how well he played in last year's NCAA Tournament? Also, did they not notice JMo develop into a really solid basketball player?
Also, he wants more minutes and like others have said, with JMo gone and Mitch maybe leaving (and even if Mich comes back, he may gett injored and needs a backup anyway) he would get those minutes and be the featured big guy. His departure makes no sense.
Given his fouls per 40 minutes, was it even realistic to think he could play 30 minutes a contest?
Horford mentions "minutes", "playing time", and opportunity. He also mentions having a coach that will still give him minutes even if he makes a mistake.
And he supposedly knows Mitch's decision.
I find it impossible to not interpret this as a sign that Mitch is staying. Horford says that Mitch's decision had no bearing on his. For a guy who wants minutes and opportunity, I find this to be unfathomable. I can't swallow it. (But I guess that if Mitch is really leaving, then Jon is telling the truth).
If I'm wrong, then Horford has made the absolute dumbest decision of his lifetime. He is leaving behind "opportunity" and "minutes" galore. He would be leaving behind an opportunity to be the only attractive option at his position, on a team with excellent guard play that can constantly generate layups and uncontested dunks. He will have to go to a new coach, probably play with less talent around him, and learn a new system and develop chemistry with new players.
I couldn't leave that article without thinking McGary is staying. Horford says a big can have success in the system, the coaches developed his skill, loves M and his teammates. He sat with the coaches, they laid out how it's going to be and he left. He left because he wants minutes.
Though it's possible the coaches told him "you don't have the skillset needed to be a feature in this offense, and we don't see that next year either (but you're very valuable to the team, and you'll be critical on D, and you will get touches just not featured, etc.)". That could be independent of Mitch.
His family has been trying to convince him to transfer for four years? I guess I can't understand why. Other than two supreme tourney efforts by McGary and Morgan, Horford has had ample opportunity to earn the bulk of the minutes.
It may even be for reasons other than basketball. Ann Arbor ain't for everyone. It wasn't for me.
Also remember at the beginning of the year, when asked about who he was going to go to in late shot clock situations coach said Horford. They clearly had big plans for him coming into the year, including the 2-big lineups, that never transpired.
I watched both of Horford's 3-pointer attempts this year and I also watched Beilein coach up the most efficient offense in KenPom recorded history despite losing McGary.
It ends up very unfortunate for Horford, but you can't really second guess Beilein's decisions.
Jordan Morgan is just a better, more productive player. Mitch McGary is just a better, more productive freak athlete of a human. The rest of the analysis is kind of irrelevant. It's not Beilein's system that didn't give you opportunities, you just weren't more productive than your competition at that position.
With that said, I wish Jon the best. Really wanted him to come in and take all of Morgan's minutes from this past season.
"The one thing I'm truly lacking, and I can admit it, is experience. From a skills development standpoint, the coaches have done an excellent job preparing me."
I don't get the sense that there are necessarily any ill feelings, as a few hinted at, but what he says here sort of steers me in the direction of what Space Coyote brought up - it's a confidence thing in the case of Horford. It reads to me like he wants a different role somewhere so he has a better picture of what does / doesn't do well, or at least a picture which is to his satisfaction.
I don't doubt that, like we would expect, Beilein has done an excellent job of skill and player development, but Beilein's system seems to be one where the Horfords of the world are only going to have so large a role (and I agree with others - Morgan was better in that role) and I think Jon gets that, if I am interpreting him correctly. All the same, he will leave Ann Arbor with a degree from Michigan, instruction from one of the best coaches out there and an opportunity to get the experience that he wants and to build the confidence that he seems to desire.
I hope he goes somewhere with good programs in European languages. That's the best preparation for his basketball future. At least this dispells the notion, founded on some pseudo-intellictual article he wrote for Huff. post and fans natural tendency to hold their team's players in high regard, that he transfered because he wanted to go to some grad program better than Michigan.
If McGary's decided he's coming back, why hasn't he said so? A player who has decided to declare for the draft might wnat to line up an agent, but if he's coming back to school why not just make the announcement? The optimist in me says he's trying to work on GRIII to make it a package deal, kind of like last year. The pessemist in me says all 3 are gone, which as noted above, Horford might have implied with his quote about them all being NBA players.
He doesn't seem to want to address his lack of talent as a reason for his lack of success and is making ridiculous excuses. He acts like he's going to transfer to Kansas and take Joel Embiid's minutes.
Sorry I don't buy the "the offense doesn't run through the post" idea. Coach B has shown willingness to change offense for skill set. With Burke we went crazy PG oriented out ot necessisty. With Burke gone we went back to a more wing/guard oriented look. When Mitch was playing well we went pick and roll a ton. So a skilled true freshman center was getting plenty of looks and touches once he bloomed.
Neither Morgan or Horford were gifted offensively - they are not guys you run your offense through. In limited times a skilled big man was available (Mitch) the offense morphed even within the season. Morford were not Jarnell Stokes (not to mention Randle!) who is a 6'7 Corliss Williamson type - if we had a Jarnell Stokes type I am sure more offense woud have come through the post.
If Ricky Doyle is a gifted offensive player and Mitch comes back I think we'll see this "he loves guards wings only" idea refuted. Frankly there are only so many post players in NCAA ball who you run an offense through and plays for. It is up to the kids to develop their post play in practice and on their own to change the offense to their favor.
It sounds like the family really thought Horford was the next Al, and were shocked he was not. Telling your kid to transfer for 4 years basically tells me they were unhappy with his progress the entire time and had a very high opinion of him. (inflated) I give credit to Horford for sticking it through 4 years with that sort of advice in his ear constantly.