August 29th, 2009 at 9:16 PM ^

Hmm, so they have been going over on practices huh? I wouldn't suppose that ever happened under Lloyd. Or ever happened elsewhere.

If USC can pay players, I'm not really sure how practicing for longer than what is considered allowable (which is not only arbitrary, but also routinely broken) is considered a negative thing.

Especially, when, you know, we were well above our normal academic standards last season.


August 29th, 2009 at 11:44 PM ^

That cuts to the heart of NCAA's lack of subpoena power. Oh and all the crap about USC paying players is ridiculous. The only real evidence (in football) is against one player (Bush) and that was by an outside agent trying to lock down a signing for a future NFL star. USC did not just hand over cash to the kid. Whether they knew about it is one thing, but at this point nothing is proven.


August 30th, 2009 at 12:36 PM ^

So basically what you are saying is that you not only don't know how to read or formulate a proper argument, but you are also a hypocrite?

USC football has had nothing come out against it that would indicate the program itself was dirty unlike basketball. I specifically qualified this in my original post.

In saying that you think football is guilty by association you should definitely take into account the basketball scandal that happened HERE years back. Is Michigan football not guilty by association?

You are allowed to hate USC or any other school/program you want. What you are not allowed to do is make baseless accusations and pass them off as gospel.


August 30th, 2009 at 11:15 AM ^

Actually, the M scenario -- if true -- would be much worse. Floyd did something creepy with one player, individually. The M scenario would be a vast institutional cheat by the entire coaching staff, plus by the AD (for being either complicit or totally out to lunch). Let's be clear: the practice cheat, if it indeed turns out to be one, would amount to a major violation of NCAA laws, which exist for very good reasons. And, unlike the SC thing, this one goes directly to "competitive advantage," rather than recruiting. Stop deluding yourself. A team that gets to practice/workout far more than other teams does is getting a huge competitive advantage, a la steroids.

And, please, don't resort to the "others do it, too" argument. That doesn't make it right. The only difference there is that other schools in other places (Alabama et al) are covered only by half-assed "newspapers" that function as PR offices.


August 29th, 2009 at 9:22 PM ^

I didn't get the sense that players were complaining about the workouts, they were just saying what you would expect them to say after a Barwis workout -- it's not easy! But no top football programs' S&C program is easy. The article really lacks comparison with other programs.


August 29th, 2009 at 9:27 PM ^

"For this report, the Free Press interviewed 10 current or former players and the parents of four others. In separate interviews, five players gave almost identical accounts of how the program is run, and a sixth player confirmed most of the descriptions. Other players, as well as parents of additional players, discussed the conditions in general. Several players declined to be interviewed at length but did not dispute the allegations when asked specifically about them."

Where is quotes from the 4 players who disagreed? Where's the other side? They mention that they can extend the hours if it's voluntary. Just because it feels like it's mandatory doesn't mean it is. How many kids had there scholarships pulled this year for not participating fully with workouts? - None, no one was kicked off the team for any reason. This just shows how far Carr let this team slip the last couple of years.


August 29th, 2009 at 9:27 PM ^

They do not follow the rules in the strict sense, its a grey area for sure. I am willing to bet that Lloyd actually followed the rules to the letter. But I also believe 70%-90% of schools do close to the same thing. I know the "strength staff" instructs football drills. They use taped towels to create footballs and work on mechanics etc. Is it right or wrong, I don't know. But it is a fact that they do football stuff that they are not "supposed" to do.

S.G. Rice

August 29th, 2009 at 9:27 PM ^

I really had the sense that the 'reporters' were going pretty far out of their way to extrapolate comments into violations.

I do anticipate that there were now be some additional team meetings involving review of NCAA rules and how to talk to reporters.


August 29th, 2009 at 9:29 PM ^

"One player, echoing the words of others, said the workouts in the past two off-seasons at Michigan “affected people’s grades. People were falling asleep in class.”"

Really falling asleep in class? I didn't play any sports, had no job and just did school and I fell asleep in class. It's really not that difficult to do.

Class is boring especially 8 ams...


August 30th, 2009 at 8:29 AM ^

I slept through an entire semester of material science classes, and still managed to graduate and become a functional member of society. Mine was due to drinking toooooooo much, which is an asinine reason. If I were able to play football for Michigan, I gladly would have slept through classes.

The Other Brian

August 29th, 2009 at 9:31 PM ^

I can say with 100% certainty that this is bullshit. One of my closest friends just graduated from Michigan State, and during his time as a student he was friendly with more than one player on MSU's football team, and on more than one occasion he would tell me about workouts going on in the summer at odd times, with assistant coaches present, etc.

This sort of stuff happens everywhere. The agenda being peddled by the Freep and that ass sniffer Rosenberg is clear. They've waited for 40 years for an opportunity to tear down Michigan, and they're not wasting it. They've become emotionally invested in seeing Rodriguez fail here, and they'll do whatever it takes to make sure it happens.

I'm sure by Monday this will have blown up to the point that Brian will need to do yet another taking apart of that idiot Rosenberg, but believe me: this is not an issue. This happens at every single major BCS program in the country. Every single one.

The Other Brian

August 29th, 2009 at 9:35 PM ^

Exactly. It's an agenda being pushed forward by people who aren't interested in "reporting", they're interested in being the next Woodward and Bernstein.

If the Columbus Dispatch wasn't in the tank for Ohio State and actually did the digging that Rosenberg is trying to do, OSU would be a wasteland and Tressel would be setting up pins in a bowling alley back in Youngstown.

The Other Brian

August 29th, 2009 at 9:46 PM ^

Nothing like this. They don't have anybody who's going to lie to football players like Carty did during his "investigation" into the academics. They don't have anybody who's going to put this rubbish out a week before the season starts.

Tressel's past speaks for itself, but there isn't a journalist in Ohio that's going to dig as deep as Rosenberg's trying to dig. There's a difference between being an "anti-OSU columnist" and what Rosenberg is.


August 29th, 2009 at 11:34 PM ^

Anonymous sources who may or may not still be with the program does not exactly make this article a rock of journalistic integrity. Hell, most of Rosenberg's quotes come from Mike Barwis. Rosenberg is trying to doom the program with 18 month old quotes by the team's own strength coach. That is the definition of spin


August 29th, 2009 at 11:19 PM ^

agreed. But most hometown newspapers haven't given up distribution for several days of the week, and are basically circling the drain.

The antics of the Freep need to be viewed through the lens that it is a dying organization and whatever they think that they can do to add eyeballs they will do.


August 29th, 2009 at 10:42 PM ^

"The players say they routinely are required to work out or practice many more hours throughout the year than the NCAA allows. They also say members of Rodriguez’s staff have broken rules by monitoring off-season scrimmages."

I will have to go back and read the rules again but I am 90% sure that assistant coaches like the S&C coaches are allowed to be at off season workouts. I am not sure if only particular coaches are named as being eligible but Graduate Assistants also have things they can legally do which an assistant coach cannot under the NCAA rules. So if the writer or the students are lumping the GAs in with the assistant coaches then it is going to be misleading.

What constitutes monitoring off-season scrimmages is a bit grey as well. If this "monitoring" is merely a player reporting back to a coach on what has been going on in 7on7s over the summer that isn't anything. If its a coach actually organizing and viewing off season practices outside of training camp then it is a major violation.

EDIT: As was posted later in this thread, an updated article,
Say what you want about the writer's agenda but from the rule book I remember, that is a lot of violations and everything he has written has a lot backing it up.


August 29th, 2009 at 9:33 PM ^

The best part of the whole thing is the State part of it titieled: "MSU plays by the rules, say ex-players"

It really seams like they frame those questions to the positive side too. “Not at all. Absolutely coach Dantonio is a stand-up guy. I don’t believe he would break any rules.”



August 29th, 2009 at 9:39 PM ^

Big-time. Before, here was merely stating his opinion about the style of Rodriguez's program.

Now he has players and parents on the record -- unnamed, but willing to talk -- accusing the program of NCAA violations.

There's no way this gets swept under the rug.

What I want to know is, how come there is rigorous, almost fanatical work done by reporters in this media market to expose everything they can about the program, while OSU gets the ass-sucking, homer, front-running, never-print-a-negative-word Columbus flippin' Dispatch??

It really, really pisses me off. They get a free pass.


August 29th, 2009 at 10:34 PM ^

defending the journalistic integrity of the freep. However, you just stated that the Dispatch should have no such integrity. Because of money? I think that patent unfairness would be one of the main points of other posters.