Fisher

Submitted by jtmc33 on

Anyone else have an unexplainable stomach cramp and uncontrolled desire to throw your remote at your tv every time you see Steve Fisher coaching in the tourney for S.D. St?

Is my anger displaced? Or justified?
Did he know... or not know?
Why is he allowed to coach after allowing the destruction of what was so great?
Is having to coach at S.D.St. for 10 years punishment enough? Or a gift?

Jerk.

Blue boy johnson

March 19th, 2010 at 12:21 AM ^

I like Steve Fisher and hold no grudge towards the Fab Five, those were great times.
A couple of Fisherisms
1. we're a good team
2. they're a good team
3. the will to win is nothing without the will to prepare

Tater

March 19th, 2010 at 12:27 AM ^

Fisher was clearly overwhelmed by his position at UM and allowed the inmates to run the asylum. I am pretty sure he just believed every lie that Webber, Traylor, et al told him and went on with his business. It's not like Frieder was much of a role model in the integrity department, either.

Fisher basically walked into a machine that Frieder had built. He was a decent caretaker until the machine broke down of its own design: nothing more, nothing less.

Essentially, Fisher is a decent midlevel coach who now has a decent midlevel job. He is where he belongs. He will never sniff the Final Four again, but he isn't pretending that he deserves to. He hasn't really done anything to embarass or disparge Michigan since he left. If Fisher wins one game every ten years in the tournament, I don't begrudge him that pleasure at all.

jtmc33

March 19th, 2010 at 12:38 AM ^

That was a well though out, and defendable, opinion. you should not have been negged (twice) for that response.

Negative points should be used as a response to stupidity... not mere disagreements.

Anyway, I just can't respect someone who "lets the inmates run the asylum". Guilty by association? Maybe.

And he was an assistant (not sure for how long) under Frieder... I'm thinking he helped Frieder create the monster that he took over. When it hit the fan.. he just claimed ignorance and moved on quietly.

But, God, do I love the story of him taking over in '89. "A Michigan Man will Coach at Michigan"

Blue boy johnson

March 19th, 2010 at 12:42 AM ^

Talent trumps. Fisher won a National Title with Frieder's players, I don't think M would have won NC with Frieder as coach, they got run out of the gym at home against Illinoi in the regular season finale that season. Then Fisher brings in the Fab Five and makes history, don't let the facts get in the way of your narrative

1 National Championship, 2 Title game losses, and I believe an Elite Eight with a close loss to eventual champ Arkansas. Fisher presided over the greatest run in M basketball history.

EDIT: this was in response to Tater and and and if damn Kevin Garnett would have qualified, Fisher may very well have notched another Championship.

Blue boy johnson

March 19th, 2010 at 9:21 AM ^

Yep, Sean Higgins put back at the buzzer I believe. Illinois was the best team in the country pretty much the whole season. We beat them 1 out of 3 but it was the biggest one.

Sean Higgins after his winning shot; "I ain't never hit a winning bucket before, it feels goooood"

twohooks

March 19th, 2010 at 1:44 AM ^

was firmly in place by the time Fisher became head coach. I enjoyed 89. I enjoyed the Fab Five. I will leave the moral debate for the experts Like it or not Michigan Basketball would not have been as successful without Ed and Steve.

jmblue

March 19th, 2010 at 7:51 AM ^

In 1989, Martin's association was primarily with Southwestern H.S. in Detroit. It was when Fisher hired Perry Watson, the Southwestern coach, as an assistant two years later that Martin started to become more tied to Michigan. The NCAA ruled that he officially became a booster at the 1992 Final Four.

TrppWlbrnID

March 19th, 2010 at 8:43 AM ^

i am much more curious how watson got away scott free than how fisher did. the years of trouble corresponded exactly with perry's arrival and departure, he left for UD(?) and you never heard about his role again.

VictorsValiant09

March 19th, 2010 at 2:34 AM ^

I don't fault Steve Fisher, but it's not like I don't hold any negative associations towards him, either. The 1989 Title was won with Frieder's players and I guess, craftsmanship in place.

The Big Ten Network just aired the 1976 National Championship game between Michigan and Indiana.

After combing through some stats, Johnny Orr did quite the job during his tenure as well. Still has the most wins in the history of the program.

Section 1

March 19th, 2010 at 2:39 PM ^

Vastly underrated.

Orr brought Frieder in as the genius H.S. coach from Flint with massive recruiting street-cred, the way that Fisher brought in Perry Watson as the genius H.S. coach from Detroit with massive recruiting street-cred.

Personally, I will always have very high regard for Dave Strack, Johnny Orr and Steve Fisher.

And I will always regard Freider and Watson as gifted-but-suspicious. Or worse.

MGoShoe

March 19th, 2010 at 7:23 AM ^

From 1976 to 1993, Michigan had the second most NCAA Championship Game appearances. Michigan's 4 appearances (1-3 record) was outstripped only by Duke's 5 appearances (2-3 record).

Teams with multiple NCAA Championship Game appearances (1976-1993):

Duke - 5
Michigan - 4
UNC - 3
Indiana - 3
Georgetown - 2
Houston - 2
Louisville - 2

1993 North Carolina def Michigan 77-71
1992 Duke def. Michigan 71-51
1991 Duke def. Kansas 72-65
1990 UNLV def. Duke 103-73
1989 Michigan def. Seton Hall 80-79 (OT)
1988 Kansas def. Oklahoma 83-79
1987 Indiana def. Syracuse 74-73
1986 Louisville def. Duke 72-69
1985 Villanova def. Georgetown 66-64
1984 Georgetown def. Houston 84-75
1983 NC State def. Houston 54-52
1982 North Carolina def. Georgetown 63-62
1981 Indiana def. North Carolina 63-50
1980 Louisville def. UCLA 59-54
1979 Michigan St. def. Indiana St. 75-64
1978 Kentucky def. Duke 94-88
1977 Marquette def. North Carolina 67-59
1976 Indiana def. Michigan 86-68

M-Wolverine

March 19th, 2010 at 11:48 AM ^

That's what I don't think some of the younger posters that have only experienced pain don't get...and why just making the Tournament every other year doesn't really excite some of us. Michigan was a truly excellent basketball program. Not quite elite, but bordering great. Michigan had the base to truly be the elite major sports program, the rare school excelling at both sports. UCLA when their football was pretty good, but better. Wake me when we're good again, not just hoping to be on the bubble. Sigh. It's been so ridiculously long.

MznbluePA

March 19th, 2010 at 8:58 AM ^

Those championship game appearances in 1992 and 1993 don't count. Like them (I do) or not, those teams were tainted by Webber and don't officially exist in the Meechigan record book. Webber destroyed the key to being a Michigan Man, and that's integrity. When reviewing the record of the Fab Five many years from now, the key will be they never won a single title in an early season tournament, Big Ten, NIT, or NCAA.

Blue in Yarmouth

March 19th, 2010 at 10:12 AM ^

but I think the fab five did more for basketball than any other players that came through UM. I realize what they did (as well) to tarnish the UM program, but I can honesty say that I was never as excited to watch basketball before or since the fab five.

I know a lot of people hate them for what has transpired and I can't blame anyone for that. But as for me, I will always look back on those times with much fondness. I can't imagine ever loving a basketball team as much as I loved those guys....

jmblue

March 19th, 2010 at 11:09 AM ^

When reviewing the record of the Fab Five many years from now, the key will be they never won a single title in an early season tournament, Big Ten, NIT, or NCAA.

I can't stand this argument. First, are you seriously going to argue that an NIT "championship" constitutes a greater accomplishment than reaching the national title game - twice? Come on. As for the Big Ten, it must be noted that we went 15-3 in 1992-93, a record that not only would win the conference 90% of the time, but would typically win it outright. As it happened, Indiana had a freakishly good season (17-1) that year, but that doesn't mean we didn't have a fantastic year ourselves. Like you wouldn't take a 31-5, 15-3 record in a heartbeat?

(BTW, the Fab Five did win a couple of early-season tournaments. Remember the tourney in Hawaii when we beat UNC and Kansas - two Final Four teams - on back-to-back nights?)

MznbluePA

March 19th, 2010 at 1:05 PM ^

jmblue,

The point of my post was that the records for Michigan basketball from March 1992 through April 1993 reflect a team that forfeited every game. The appearances in the Final Four were memorable, but I don't see them as existing. The moniker of a great team goes to those who win championships. A team. I'll take the 1989 team over the Fab Five. They won based on team play.

Go back and watch the final minutes of the North Carolina final loss. Webber brings down the rebound, looks for someone to pass to, but the rest of the team is heading down the court. Leaving Chris Webber to bring the ball upcourt then was a poor decision. I remember screaming at the TV when they all ran up court. The Fab Five never quite played as a team, mostly as 5 great basketball players.

Blue boy johnson

March 19th, 2010 at 2:54 PM ^

I think they very much played as a team, they were all good passers and unselfish.
They were not 5 great basketball players they were 1 great player, 2 very good players, and 2 good players, with a nice supporting cast. We can quibble about how good/great Rose, Howard and Webber were but I don't think there is much doubt that King and Jackson were not great players

jmblue

March 19th, 2010 at 3:50 PM ^

OK, you seem to be making two arguments simultaneously: that they didn't win anything because they had to vacate most of their games (which is technically true but a little silly), and then the old "they underachieved" argument. Again, this is a team that started five underclassmen (in an era in which 99% of players stayed three years and most stayed four) and went 31-5 and 15-3. They set a school record for victories. The 1989 team, which actually sent more players to the NBA than the 1993 team did, posted worse overall (30-7) and Big Ten (12-6) records. That team really did underachieve until the tournament.

Anyway, your memory of that last play is incorrect, as is (IMO) the conclusion you draw from it. Not everyone ran upcourt. Rose stayed back, but Derrick Phelps was in the passing lane, so Webber was hesitant to pass it to him (and got away with a travel in the process). It's entirely normal for only the point guard to stay in the backcourt in situations like that. Aside from Phelps, UNC didn't have on full-court pressure. Webber could have gotten the ball to Rose; he just panicked a little.

burtcomma

March 19th, 2010 at 9:07 AM ^

Does not the majority of the blame here for our descent into basketball hell belong to the Michigan players who took money from Ed Martin as "loans" and therefore helped him launder his gains from running numbers at various Ford mfg plants?

Basically, the issue was that Fisher gave Ed Martin free tickets for basketball games and that was what got Martin classified as a "booster".

jmblue

March 19th, 2010 at 11:14 AM ^

Young people will do stupid things. The burden falls on the authority figure to respond appropriately. At some point, Fish had to have known what was going on. Maybe Webber did a good job hiding the money, but Traylor and Taylor flaunted it, big-time. A $40,000 SUV in the player parking lot is a tad suspicious.

Most likely, Fisher knew what Martin was doing, but figured it went on at other schools, too, and decided it was none of his business to interfere. It probably does go on at tons of other schools, but the NCAA doesn't like that excuse.

GOBLUE4EVR

March 19th, 2010 at 9:32 AM ^

this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Michigan_basketball_scandal#…

and read the second paragraph... you'll see that fisher knew what was going on the entire time...

my biggest problem with him, is that he has been able to just walk away from the shit storm that he helped to create... the NCAA needs to put a rule in place to hold coaches responsible for their actions...

Gillette Fake Punt

March 19th, 2010 at 9:55 AM ^

I had my picture taken with him at Michigan's basketball camp in 1990. I was 13, and meeting him was an amazing moment for me at the time. He also gave me my first ever starting-lineup spot at the camp, the day he coached my team. He was such a nice guy.

So, thanks Coach, for giving me a lasting memory.

AC1

March 19th, 2010 at 10:35 AM ^

Isn't it true that the long-term damage to the program that was hatched under Fisher's watch outweighs any accomplishments that the team and its fans enjoyed?

michelin

March 19th, 2010 at 11:40 AM ^

Look at Calipari. NCAA violations at UMass, he leaves. NCAA academic investigations ongoing with violations to come at Memphis, he leaves. Is he punished? No. He gets rewarded with one of the top 2 teams in the nation.

What kind of message does this send to other coaches?

IMO, a big reason why we are not getting good players is that we have an honest coach who can't keep up with the rampant cheating.

So, I think Fisher, like the others, should have faced more consequences too.

gobluesasquatch

March 19th, 2010 at 4:27 PM ^

Steve Fisher has yet to win a tournament game since being fired by Michigan. As far as I'm concerned, I couldn't be happier.

Sure, Frieder had his own issues (see what happened to him at ASU), but Fisher had a team with Glen Rice who got seriously hot during the NCAA tournament, and if you watch the replay of the 89 tournament, Fisher barely does anything during the game - as he did over the next decade at Michigan.

I lived across the street from where Travis Conlan lived during my sophomore year. Willie Mitchell was attending his SECOND orientation because he'd missed/slept through too many sessions the first time around (of course, he was sleeping in the meeting when we asked our orientation leader who the new guy that was over in the corner sleeping was). I saw the guys on the team drive their SUV's around campus.

Fisher knew what was going on with the original Fab Five, and the next group of super recruits, including guys like Traylor. His ignorance or acceptance of what was going on with Ed Martin was disgraceful. And worse yet, it forced Michigan to fire him, and then hire the even worse Brian Ellerbee, who couldn't run a clean program or win basketball games.

The Fab Five, while great for basketball embarrassed the university. The basketball team disgraced an otherwise clean and respectable athletic department. Michigan used to consistently competitive in the Big Ten. The threat of future sanctions crippled the inept Ellerbee, and the sanctions against Michigan under Amaker set the program back years.

People forget we were as good if not better than MSU at basketball. Jud Heathcoate wasn't a great coach, he was average and got fortunate that he had some guy named Magic in the late 70s. As for Tom Izzo, he's still thanking God that an SUV carrying a bunch of Michigan players and a recruit by the name of Cleaves flipped on the way back to Ann Arbor, just a few days before a game against Indiana.

Sorry for the rant, but Steve Fisher has never been held accountable for his actions, and I'm glad his teams can't win an NCAA game. I root against him every time I hear about SDSU. What's really sad is he has never been punished, but guys like Laval Blanchard never got to play in the tournament because of actions by prior coaches and "boosters" and players who took money, cheated, and ruined an otherwise proud basketball program. To Hell with all the guys who took money and the coaches who allowed it.