Expect lots more of TEs Koger and Webb this year
Coach BT not only knows FOOTBALL but also POSTS about FOOTBALL giving EPINION. Today he posted behind the Scout paywall at:
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=162&f=1088&t=4564730
A couple general thoughts so as to not take FOOD off TABLE of BT:
You can expect the tight ends to be very involved in the offense. Koger and Webb were two of the three best players on the field this spring (the third? B.Graham). The two of them are moved all over the place (on the line, in the slot, in the backfield).
Plus, the coaches met with Missouri in 2008 (Chase Coffman?) and Oklahoma in 2009 (Jermaine Gresham) to work on using the TEs in the spread.
TEs were used almost 3x as much this year in spring as in 2008.
My thoughts:
In the 2008 offense UFRs I reviewed in critiquing Martavious Odoms last month, Brian repeatedly wrote that Koger was wide open and Threet or Sheridan simply missed throwing him the ball. The kid is a beast.
I would expect in the first few games that the passing game is going to center on short crossing patterns, getting Koger in space, and using Roundtree/Stonum? as deep threats.
The more I read about the offense, if these guys stay healthy and Tate is just average (55% completion percentage, minimal INTs), I think we're going to be blown away by the diversity, speed, and unpredictability of the Michigan offense. It will be unlike any offense we've seen at the Big House.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:09 PM ^
yer right. We won a national championship by effectively using a great tight end- Jermame Tuman.
I'm pretty stoked about this year. My gut says we're gonna be a lot better than many think.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:14 PM ^
realize that we were playing with what were truly awful QBs, and still were 1-2 plays away from winning 5 more games, well, yeah, I think we'll be a lot better than people think too. I have Michigan pegged at 9-3. Book that.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:44 PM ^
1-2 plays away from winning 5 more games!
I think the Lions were 8-9 plays from being a playoff team last year.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:28 PM ^
Interesting. My gut never speaks in specifics like yours. Only whether it's hungry or not. Perhaps you could share your gut-to-self communication skills.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:41 AM ^
Gut: you're a fat douchebag.
Mind: shut the hell up. You're the fat one.
Gut: you're a jagoff. Blow me. After that, order some cheesy fries and a shake. His ass can still fit thru a doorway.
Oh, and we're going 9-3 this year.
Mind: OK, whatever you say.
Hmmm, nope. I think I need more cheesy fries. But then again don't we all?
man that boot wagle play was unstoppable back in those days... I always wondered why that play went away after Brady left...
Anyway... Imagine the gift that Koger and Webb are going to give to young Tate: An open outlet in the middle of the field that he can check down to repeatedly. What a freaking gift. Threet hit it one time last year, vs. Wisc...Id expect Tater to hit it many more times than that.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:18 PM ^
has always used their TEs well. I grew up watching us using them. Jermane Tuman when I was really young, Butler, Ecker, etc... That was all under carr, but still TE usage. I look forward to see how we use them this fall.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:15 PM ^
I kind of doubt we're going to be blown away by Koger and Webb. It's not that they're bad players - it's that they have a freshman QB and Rodriguez has zero history of using the tight ends well. I'll believe it when I see it.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:17 PM ^
balloon goes....................pop.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:23 PM ^
They're big, and they're fast; who said they're going to play a typical bookend tight end role?
RichRod has experience with utilizing a big and fast guy like Owen Schmitt. Koger and Webb can line up in the traditional position, slot out, or slide back to an H-Back type spot. All that has to be done is getting the ball to them to make plays.
All we can do is just wait and see. The tools are there, let's see how they're utilized.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:44 PM ^
The tools were there last year, too. It's not like we signed Antonio Gates in free agency. These are the same TEs that were on the roster in 2008, minus Carson Butler - who was just as athletic as anyone on the current roster - and Mike Massey.
Regardless, there is zero evidence to support the idea that the tight ends will be of major importance. We heard the same thing about the TEs last year as we are now.
Schmitt was a fullback, and we have a Schmitt-like player in Moundros. I'm not saying he's as good as Schmitt, nor am I saying that Schmitt was the penultimate player for that role. But there are only so many balls to go around, and this is typical pre-season talk - Martavious Odoms has a year of experience under his belt and will improve significantly, Roy Roundtree is a go-to receiver, Hemingway looks awesome, the tight ends are big and fast, Minor is a beast, Vincent Smith is a pinball, the offensive line is going to be improved, Tate Forcier is awesome, blah blah blah. Some of those things are going to be disproved when it comes to the regular season, and I'm calling shenanigans on the tight end play.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:47 PM ^
The ability to hit the quick throws, screens, etc... And some receivers blocking.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:48 PM ^
Mags, you forgot Toussaint and Gallon they are my favs!
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:55 PM ^
Are you using penultimate jokingly (i.e. pre-madonna)
If not, IDTYKWTWM.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 PM ^
WHO-HOOOO!
+1
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 PM ^
he is either referring to Sidney Crosby, Mario Lemieux, or Fernando Rodney
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:02 PM ^
Yeah...I meant to use "ultimate" and typed "penultimate" instead. I need more sleep.
But instead, I think I'll stay up and read more about Michigan football. Hooray!
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:08 PM ^
The tools were there last year, too.
Not at the QB position.
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:22 PM ^
...and how is that different from this year? So far Forcier and Robinson have combined for zero snaps in college, and Sheridan was pretty horrible last year.
Like I said in another post, Forcier will be better than Sheridan and Threet were, but that might not make much of a difference.
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:47 PM ^
Last year we had guys trying to play QB. This year we have an actual QB. A TE is often a young QB's favorite target. Now that we have someone who can actually throw the ball to Koger/Webb, we may use them.
August 4th, 2009 at 12:09 AM ^
A tight end is often a veteran QBs favorite target. A lot of young quarterbacks are too scared (or their coaches are) to throw the ball over the middle, because there's so much traffic. Forcier is only 6' tall. I don't remember any catches by the tight ends in the spring game (were there any?).
Magnus, you are dead on with your assessment of the tight end position this year. Right now it is wishful thinking that Koger and Webb will have breakout seasons with a freshman QB in there. I know Tate is the Savior, but I'm betting he will have a pretty limited playbook well into the season, and we'll see Koger and Webb doing a lot of blocking for the running game, rather than catching too many passes.
Points abound, except for the use of "penultimate," of course.
play packages for the first team (although I would for Tate's performance - yes I am being selective here). I remember reading they purposely went vanilla so as to not give away what will be their decided schematic advantage this fall.
So, if they were implementing a TE-heavier set to be used in the fall, we wouldn't have seen it in April. After all, we only saw Tate throw 14 passes.
August 4th, 2009 at 12:02 AM ^
Dude you need to buy into the hype. It's almost fall camp, get amped.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:41 PM ^
telling that they met with mizzou and OU the past two years to discuss (in part) how to use the TE in the spread. on top of that they ran more sets using the TE during spring ball. i doubt they'd go through all that trouble then not use those guys.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 PM ^
This doesn't really refute my argument. They've visited with teams that use the TE in the spread the past two off-seasons (i.e. prior to the 2008 season)...and yet we didn't use the TE last year.
"But we had inexperienced QBs last year," you might say.
I see your inexperienced 2008 QBs...and I raise you two inexperienced 2009 QBs. I have full confidence that Forcier will be better than Sheridan/Threet, but that doesn't mean he'll be allowed/asked to utilize the middle of the field where the tight ends roam.
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 PM ^
than what he had done at WVU.
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:26 PM ^
True...and yet I think Koger had 3 catches, Butler had 1 or 2, Webb had zero, and Massey had zero. So that's not saying a whole lot.
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:36 PM ^
it's more about the way that RR utilized TEs. He put them at slot WR, standard TE position and even at FB last year. That's a lot more than what he had done at WVU.
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:52 PM ^
Putting a TE at slot does nothing for your team if you don't throw him the ball. And after Odoms, it was basically Toney Clemons or...uhhh...Ricky Reyes at slot. I'm not surprised that he chucked Koger out at slot for a play here or there.
Regardless, pre-season hype is all fine and dandy but you're all getting caught up in the hype. This type of thing happens every year where a bunch of people start to believe that practice buzz and off-season tinkering will amount to something...and it happens every year where one or more of those dreams gets shot down.
All these positives things that you (the collective you, not the individual you) want to happen, they're not going to happen. A few will; a few won't. I don't know why it's so hard to believe that maybe, just maybe, everything won't be peachy keen.
The OPTIMISTIC predictions around here say we'll go 8-4. If we go 8-4 despite having a savior at QB, great tight ends, an awesome offensive line, great play at slot receiver, the Big Ten's best running backs, beasts all along the defensive line, a 2010 draft pick at one corner and a great corner on the other side, improved safety play, and a huge turnaround by Stevie Brown...well...if we do all that and still go 8-4, we sure got fucked by some shitty referees, didn't we?
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:58 PM ^
Chill out
You wrote:
Putting a TE at slot does nothing for your team if you don't throw him the ball.
I bet it will if you run a quick RB screen, or a QB roll out, or a RB sweep. You can use your TE in the slot to either be a release on the pass or as a lead blocker.
Yes, but if you never throw the ball to your tight end, then it becomes painfully obvious that it's a quick screen or a toss. That's something a defense would recognize from a scouting report.
August 3rd, 2009 at 11:58 PM ^
Its like ND last year when we lined up a full back with a tail back, it was always a run there was never any deception no play fake, just lining up a TE in a new spot on the field will not deceive anyone if they have never been thrown the ball prior.
We could have put 2 LBers in the wide out positions and we still would have been running the ball.
because he hadn't grasp the O or what it took to play big time college football yet and Koger was a true freshman. Massey was coming off of an injury and Butler well.... Early in the season the O line play was pathetic so if TEs were in they were used to block. Enough has been said about the QB play or lack there of.
Generally, I'm a show me type of guy like it sounds like you are Magnus but, I also believe RR will utilize all of the tools at his disposable. If they are going to have Tate or Denard rolling out the TE dragging across the field should be a great target and after the lack of TE catches last year a break out year could result in what 25 catches. Seems feasible to me.
I'm not saying it's infeasible. I'm just saying that too many people are jumping on the TE bandwagon with zero evidence to support their claims.
And going to back to your reasons why those guys didn't catch any balls - it's not like Webb is suddenly a genius at running the tight end position or Koger went from being a frosh to a fifth year senior. These guys are still somewhat young and inexperienced. And a big reason you didn't include is the fact that they had a RS sophomore, 6'1", noodle-armed QB and a RS freshman, 6'6", rocket-armed but inaccurate QB.
Take those guys and remove a year of maturity, subtract a little bit of height, give him a rocket arm, add some speed and QB coaching and...voile!...you have Tate Forcier.
Nobody has refuted by three biggest arguments:
1. Tate is short, which makes it more difficult to throw over the middle due to sight lines and DL being able to swat down the pass.
2. There is more traffic in the middle of the field, which makes decision-making extremely important; true freshmen and good decision-making don't typically go hand-in-hand.
3. There's no on-field evidence of Rodriguez being extremely interested in the tight end, other than visiting a couple schools. I went to a clinic on running a 4-3 defense - that doesn't mean I run it.
I enjoy reading your posts, you are always frank and to the point. I am also most often in agreement with what you have to say. In this case, however, I have to disagree.
You said "I'm just saying that too many people are jumping on the TE bandwagon with zero evidence to support their claims."
I would say that they are basing these assupmtions on the evidence that is currently at hand:
Defense ehibit A- RR and company have visited two schools to determine how to better utilize their TE's
Defense exhibit B- Koger has been interviewed a couple of times and spoke about how the TE's will be more involved in the passing game this season
Defense exhibit C- Their have been countless interviews with coaches where they speak about the increased involvement in the passing game.
Prosecution exhibit A- personal testimony that it will not happen with zero evidence offered other than the statement "Regardless, pre-season hype is all fine and dandy but you're all getting caught up in the hype. This type of thing happens every year where a bunch of people start to believe that practice buzz and off-season tinkering will amount to something...and it happens every year where one or more of those dreams gets shot down."
It sounds more like you are basing your opinions on the fact that not everything people say comes to pass. This is true but you have no evidence to say that this point (regarding th use of TE's) will be one of those things that doesn't happen while most of your opposition in this debate have in fact offered up evidence.
Jury's verdict.....Magnus is banished to the quite room to think about what he has said.
In all seriousness though, idk if they will use the TE's more this year or not, but if I am basing it on the evidence at hand I would have to agree with those who say they will.
August 4th, 2009 at 10:43 AM ^
re: Defense Exhibit A
The coaches visited before LAST season, and our TEs had a whopping four catches. Even if the coaches doubled their knowledge of tight ends this offseason and, therefore, the production of those tight ends, it would be EIGHT catches. That's 3/4 of a catch per game.
re: Defense Exhibits B & C
The coaches and tight ends said before LAST season that the tight ends would be used more. Magee said in several articles that they had never had the athleticism at TE that they had at Michigan...and our TEs went out and caught four passes.
re: Prosecution Exhibit A
I don't think you've been reading all my posts. I've said repeatedly that a) Forcier is short, which impedes the ability to throw over the middle, b) Forcier is young, which makes the player and the coaches wary of throwing over the middle, c) there's no past evidence to suggest that the TE will be used frequently, d) the TEs didn't catch a single pass in the spring game.
My argument has WAY more evidence than the opposition. Defense Exhibits A, B, and C all have to do with clinics that the coaches attended or statements made to newspapers. Prosecution Exhibits A, B, C, and D all have to do with things that have happened/do happen on the field.
Regarding Michigan's last three first-time starters, Henne's tight ends had 33 catches in a pro-style offense. Threet/Sheridan's tight ends had 4 catches. In 2000, Navarre/Henson's tight ends had 20 catches, although I'm not sure how many came from Navarre or came from Henson as a junior. That's an average of 19 catches per season. (I didn't go back beyond that because I got tired of doing the research.)
August 4th, 2009 at 12:15 PM ^
(and admittedly less entertaining), if you would just type:
"Nothing any of you say will cause me to change my mind on this matter. It is already made up."
August 4th, 2009 at 12:40 PM ^
I'm sorry, I didn't see anyone else changing their mind, despite the fact that the entire opposition to my argument is "Kevin Koger said we'll use the TE more and I'm blindly optimistic! Hooray!"
Perhaps I should be a lemming like many other people on here and just believe things because CalvinMageewentonaroadtripandOMGJermaineGresham.
August 4th, 2009 at 12:54 PM ^
If you really think that was the entire opposing argument, then you either didn't read anyone else' post, or you're just being stubborn. I wonder which one it is?
I was obviously exaggerating, but I don't like it when people accuse me of a "Dammit, I won't change my mind" attitude when nobody else is changing their mind, either. My argument has been backed up with a significant amount of evidence and rational thought.
I wasn't accusing you of anything.
And I don't expect (or want) you to change your opinion on this particular subject. I just thought it was amusing (but I didn't want to add "LOL" to the end of the post).
Hey, at least you have an opinion on the matter.
I have no absolutely no fucking clue how many passes the tight ends are going to get this year.
Many times I read through these posts without really having a strong opinion for either side, and I like to see the arguments play themselves out. This is one of those times.
isn't that "done did"? As in "than what he done did at WVU"
August 4th, 2009 at 12:25 AM ^
i wouldn't say they had in-experienced QBs, i'd say they had steven threet and nick sheridan...nuff said
"But we had crappy, inexperienced QBs last year."
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:57 PM ^
They are just setting up OSU to expect two TE screen plays, then we're going to totally toss that out the window and use FB screens instead. OSU WILL NEVER SEE IT COMING!
Wait, DeBord isn't the coach anymore?
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:22 PM ^
On GBMW(I know, I know) during spring practice, they said the tight end package/formation is called Trojan for what it's worth.
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:28 PM ^
Remember that TE option play we saw Florida using last year, imagine a option-run of DRob with Carlos on the outside and Koger coming on the inside.