Early Enrolless/Class Size Solved!

Submitted by JC3 on December 9th, 2009 at 9:55 AM

I know there have been numerous threads on this already, but those of you with a rivals account will notice one of the members got in contact with the Big Ten Director of Compliance.

Link($)

Nothing has changed, although you’ve never been able to “backdate” and count a student-athlete (SA) in a year in which they weren’t in attendance. What I suspect you’re thinking of is the fact that mid-year enrollees (except SAs receiving aid under the “mid-year replacement” rule?described below) count against the overall limit of 85, but may count against the initial limit of 25 in either the year of initial enrollment (if there’s room) or in the year immediately following.

-all of the above describe NCAA rules; the Big Ten rule is that at no time can you be in a situation where more than 3 scholarships over the limit have been offered. So, if I have room for 25 initial counters next year, I can sign 28; if I have room for 20 initial counters next year, I can sign 23.

Comments

Magnus

December 9th, 2009 at 10:05 AM ^

I don't think so. You may not have more than 25 "initial counters" in the fall. You can sign 28 in February, but basically 3 of them have to be gone by August. At least that's the way I interpret what's written.

mejunglechop

December 9th, 2009 at 10:08 AM ^

Right. Just to add on, the mechanism for trimming the class would either be kids not qualifying, or if more than 25 qualify, grayshirting at least one kid, which would mean that he'd enroll in the 2011 class.

tdumich

December 9th, 2009 at 10:09 AM ^

bc it says they can count towards either year. we only signed 22 last year and witty didn't make it in. therefore, we can sign 28, count a maximum of 3 to last year, and bring in 25 for next year.

bcsblue

December 9th, 2009 at 10:10 AM ^

This is a post on rivals board and there is much more. I know this is whac to steal someones post, but maybe people can interpret this. Here it is: from poster ( chadwal85 and anison)

Here is the very informative explanation from Chad Hawley, Big Ten Director of Compliance:

Nothing has changed, although you’ve never been able to “backdate” and count a student-athlete (SA) in a year in which they weren’t in attendance. What I suspect you’re thinking of is the fact that mid-year enrollees (except SAs receiving aid under the “mid-year replacement” rule?described below) count against the overall limit of 85, but may count against the initial limit of 25 in either the year of initial enrollment (if there’s room) or in the year immediately following. Here’s a very basic example:

University A’s fb team has 80 student-athletes (SAs) on scholarship during the 2009-10 academic year. Joe Prospect graduates from h.s. early and enrolls at University A in Jan. 2010 as a scholarship fb player. University A is now at 81 scholarships (out of 85) for the 2009-10 academic year and Joe may be counted against the initial limit of 25 for either 2009-10 (if there’s room) or 2010-11.

Financial aid rules are fairly nuanced, but here are some of the basics relating specifically to football that will allow you to be informed when chatting with friends:

-football is a “head count” sport, which means that if a SA gets $1 or a full-ride, he counts as 1 against the limit of 85.

-unless a SA meets an exception that exempts him from counting (e.g., medical non-counter, exhausted eligibility SA), that SA will always count against the limit of 85 in the year in which the aid is received.

-in general, an “initial counter” is a SA who is in his first year of receiving aid in a sport.

-the initial counter limit is 25, but the overall limit of 85 is always in play, so for example, if I will be returning 65 guys on scholarship in 2010-11, I only have room for 20 initial counters in 2010-11.

-initial counters who enroll in the fall count against the initial limit (up to 25) for the academic year in which they enroll; except as described under the midyear replacement rule below, initial counters who enroll mid-year may count against the initial limit in either the year they enroll or in the following year.

-there is something called a “midyear graduate replacement.” This may actually be the source of confusion because under the “midyear replacement” rule, the SA who is receiving aid for the first time at mid-year has to count against the initial limit in the following academic year. The “midyear replacement” rule is only used, though, when a team is at its limit of 85 and someone counting against the 85 has recently graduated?the SA receiving aid for the first time at midyear is then “replacing” the SA who counted against the 85 in the fall but has now graduated.

-all of the above describe NCAA rules; the Big Ten rule is that at no time can you be in a situation where more than 3 scholarships over the limit have been offered. So, if I have room for 25 initial counters next year, I can sign 28; if I have room for 20 initial counters next year, I can sign 23.

Magnus

December 9th, 2009 at 10:13 AM ^

No, it says we CAN'T "backdate" players. They can only count for the semester/year for which they initially enrolled. So if a guy enrolls in January 2010, he can't count for the 2009 class.

That being said, I wonder if "enrolled" means when the kid STARTS classes or when the kid SIGNS UP for classes... If he can count for the year in which he SIGNS UP for classes, then perhaps January enrollees could count for '09. Thoughts?

bouje

December 9th, 2009 at 10:17 AM ^

Is Fall to Summer (09-10) if they would enroll within that year then they should be counted for that years class. Whereas if they enroll after classes end in May then they should be counted toward the next years class (as most football players do that enroll in the summer).

That's my interpretation of the rule.

psychomatt

December 20th, 2009 at 12:35 AM ^

This is exactly what is confusing everyone. A student who enrolls in January 2010 is enrolling in the 2009/2010 school year. Per the NCAA rule, his scholarship can be counted in the 2009/2010 class (which is what everyone keeps calling "backdating") or the 2010/2011 class.

white_pony_rocks

December 9th, 2009 at 11:02 AM ^

so is it like this? Say we sign 28 players but we can still only offer scholarships to 25 of them for next year. We'll say that grimes and hankins commit and decide to enroll early. While they count towards this class in signings, they don't for scholarships, they count towards last year. So we sign 28 and actually offer 27 of them scholarships, 2 counting towards last year (Grimes and Hankins) and 25 for this coming year (all other recruits whether they enroll early or not)

Wolverine96

December 9th, 2009 at 10:23 AM ^

I am reading it the opposite way. If a recruit enrolls during the 2009-10 "Academic" year, his scholarship can going against either the 2009 class or the 2010 class.

Using Tate Forcier as an example, if there was room in the 2008 recruiting class, his scholarship could have counted against those numbers.

Therefore we have the opportunity to count early enrollees against the 2009 class so long as we do not exceed the number of scholarships available at that time. The good news, if I am understanding the rule correctly, is that we should be able to sign 28 guys and count a least one or two against the 2009 class.

c williams

December 9th, 2009 at 10:37 AM ^

I understand it this way as well.

I believe the original comment about no "back dating" implied that you can't have an August enrollee count towards the previous year just because you didn't use all your 25 that previous year. Futher, I agree that it does imply as Wolverine 96 states, "if a recruit enrolls during the 2009-10 "Academic" year, his scholarship can going against either the 2009 class or the 2010 class."

So, I guess you can quasi "back date" players by having them enroll early in January. It's curious how this would then work moving forward for an early enrollee counted against the previous cap who then stays around after a redshirt for a 5th season.

bcsblue

December 9th, 2009 at 10:18 AM ^

I read that you can do it. The last sentence of this paragraph.

University A’s fb team has 80 student-athletes (SAs) on scholarship during the 2009-10 academic year. Joe Prospect graduates from h.s. early and enrolls at University A in Jan. 2010 as a scholarship fb player. University A is now at 81 scholarships (out of 85) for the 2009-10 academic year and !!Joe may be counted against the initial limit of 25 for either 2009-10 (if there’s room) or 2010-11.!!

MWW6T7

December 9th, 2009 at 10:19 AM ^

From what you've posted, if I have interpreted it correctly(that's a long shot) is that we can sign 28 if and only if we have 3 ee's counting towards last years count since we only had 22 in that class. Those three plus the 25 counting towards this years class must meet the required 85 scholarship limit by the deadline meaning that we would have to have enough players graduating or not receiving their 5th year to get to that number of 85. If those criteria are met then we could presumably have 28 players in this class.

My head hurts!

BleedingBlue

December 9th, 2009 at 11:11 AM ^

I don't know how that specifically works as I'm sure that there were walk-ons awarded all of the 85 scholarships (I don't think there is any way they would not give kids the money). Scholarships last 1 year (fall and winter semester minimum I assume).

With that being said:
Assuming the team was up to the max 85 limit by awarding the scholarships to walk-ons, from what it says above, it's my understanding we would need to have at least 3 people that were on scholarship in the fall leave the team/release their scholarship for a reason other than mid-year graduation in order for 3 EE's to count toward the 2009 class.

rdlwolverine

December 9th, 2009 at 10:33 AM ^

but have only 28 enroll. Three early enrollees can be counted towards the 2009-10 class (assuming three enroll early). Then we are can still take on 25 and be under the 85 limit (I haven't done a count of this but that's my understanding of where we are in overall body count). So, under Big Ten rules we can sign up to 28 players to fill the 25 slots. That gives us total 31 signees to fill 28 slots. It allows you to factor in the possibility of attrittion of up to three signees due to ineligibity, pro baseball, whatever. NCAA rules would not limit how many you sign to fill the 25 slots (see Alabama).

rdlwolverine

December 9th, 2009 at 11:33 AM ^

Our 2009 class was 22 (according to an earlier post) so that leaves three early enrollees that can be counted in the 2009 class. Add that to this year's enroll limit of 25 (out of potentially 28 signees) and that gets you to 28. I don't know if we can retroactively assign Forcier, Stonum or other early enrollees from last year and reassign them to a previous class or how much room was in the previous class. I suppose it is possible though. If the class gets real big, it starts to limit how many we can take on in the class of 2011 because of the overall 85 limit.

mejunglechop

December 9th, 2009 at 11:47 AM ^

Our 09 class signed 22, but Witty didn't enroll, leaving four open spots to start. In addition, we had seven early enrollees. Depending on how things worked out with Witherspoon, Hill and Stonum that year, we could have counted back anywhere from one to four. That would leave our 09 class with anywhere from four to eight spots we could count back to.

The real issue is the 85 limit.

rdlwolverine

December 9th, 2009 at 11:33 AM ^

Our 2009 class was 22 (according to an earlier post) so that leaves three early enrollees that can be counted in the 2009 class. Add that to this year's enroll limit of 25 (out of potentially 28 signees) and that gets you to 28. I don't know if we can retroactively assign Forcier, Stonum or other early enrollees from last year and reassign them to a previous class or how much room was in the previous class. I suppose it is possible though. If the class gets real big, it starts to limit how many we can take on in the class of 2011 because of the overall 85 limit.

Magnus

December 9th, 2009 at 10:24 AM ^

I think you guys are correct. Bcsblue's post was more informative than the original post, and based on bcsblue's post, I agree with you guys. The quotes that were in the original post weren't the whole story, and that's what I was basing my reading on.

+1 to both of you.

bouje

December 9th, 2009 at 10:27 AM ^

the original statement of how EEs work. Which is IMO the way that it should work. To take away EE a team like Michigan which has been decimated with attrition is screwed and can never get back on track.

BoyBlue

December 9th, 2009 at 10:35 AM ^

I think you got caught up in the part where they said you can't backdate a player who isn't enrolled in that academic year. But an early enrollee IS enrolled in the 2009 academic year as the winter '10 semester counts towards the 2009 academic year. This is not then "backdating."

So a class of 28 is allowed because of the early enrolling of at least 3 (Pace, Robinsons, White, Miller, Others, I am not sure). HOORAY! Now it appears we don't have to Peace or Barnes a kid, and I hope we don't. Subject to academic reasons this class should be huge and talented.

Fresh Meat

December 9th, 2009 at 10:39 AM ^

It would make sense that would could sign 28 and count 3 of the EE towards last year's count given how we have been recruiting. As people have stated before, if we could only sign 25 some of the activities of the coaches in recruiting would seem not just weird, but kind of dumb. But in light of this information, the recruiting strategy makes perfect sense, which IMO, makes it more likely that we can in fact sign 28.

Logan88

December 9th, 2009 at 10:39 AM ^

I've merely substituted the specific for the generic in the compliance guy's example...

University of Michigan fb team has 78 student-athletes on scholarship during the 2009-10 academic year(I believe the current count is 78). Ricardo Miller graduates from h.s. early and enrolls at University of Michigan in Jan. 2010 as a scholarship fb player. University of Michigan is now at 79 scholarships (out of 85) for the 2009-10 academic year and Ricardo may be counted against the initial limit of 25 for either 2009-10 (if there’s room, which in UM's case there would be as only 21 enrolled in the 2009-2010 class) or 2010-11.

So...it looks like UM CAN sign 28 as long as 3 enroll early to count against the 2009-2010 year (aka as the 2009 class which only enrolled 21, 4 short of the 25 allowed per year). Provided, of course, that we do not exceed the 85 team total.

maineandblue

December 9th, 2009 at 11:38 AM ^

Was waiting for someone to express some excitement.

Whooo frickin Hooo!

This class could have the quality AND quantity to take Tate and fellow frosh to the promised land as juniors or seniors, in my humble and hopeful opinion.

I don't know where this idea--that the B10 no longer allows EEs to count towards the academic year they enroll (aka the previous recruiting year)--started, but man am I thrilled it's erronious!

Maize.Blue Wagner

December 9th, 2009 at 10:44 AM ^

but if an early enrollee is counted in the class of the previous year, do they lose a year of eligibility? For instance, if Tate had been counted toward the class of '08 would he only have two years of eligibility left? Or would '08 have to be considered a red-shirt year?

BoyBlue

December 9th, 2009 at 11:08 AM ^

No they do not lose a year of eligibility nor does it count as a redshirt year. I am not sure why, but since they never had an opportunity to compete in a game they don't lose eligibility. In essence they get a head start on the rest in their class by getting a semester of academics in and a spring practice as well.

DeuceInTheDeuce

December 9th, 2009 at 1:37 PM ^

I always thought it could be broken up by academic unit (semester, trimester etc.).

For instance, EEs that enroll for the winter term, say January 11, 2010, have until the the start of winter term 2015 to finish their 4 playing years. This date will be after the fb season, thus EE's don't lose a year.

On the other hand, I may have just made this up years ago because it was the only way it made sense to me. 50/50

Wolverine96

December 9th, 2009 at 2:12 PM ^

You have 5 years of eligibility from the date of enrollment. Because the football schedule does not cross semesters, a player who enrolls in January will still have 5 football seasons to complete his eligibility.

This is why you do not have early enrollees in other sports such as basketball as the schedule spans two different semesters.

Captain

December 9th, 2009 at 6:13 PM ^

How would this impact the January bowl game I expect us to be playing in 5 years from now?

If an EE enrolls in January, takes a redshirt, and completes his fourth season at the end of his fifth year, is it possible that his eligibility might expire before the bowl game?

MCalibur

December 9th, 2009 at 11:48 AM ^

I read somewhere, can't remember where, that your elligibility is for a number of athletic seasons, not academic years. I'll keep looking for the link I read that at so take that for what it's worth (unverified voracity).

So, since Witty, for example, wasn't on the team for the 2009 season he still has 5 seasons of elligibility left in football even if he enrolls in the winter term of the 2009-2010 academic year.

MWW6T7

December 9th, 2009 at 10:51 AM ^

I know Witty and Miller will be enrolling early but who are the others?

EDIT: Sorry, did not see the posty above that states the answer I was looking for.