Doyle: RR Passes the Buck (no pun intended)
From CBS Sportsline:
""After the loss Saturday to Ohio State, Rodriguez knew exactly where the blame should go.
At Lloyd Carr.
And at the media.
These weren't exactly subtle shots, either. When he was asked if any of Michigan's juniors had come to him seeking advice on whether they should turn pro, Rodriguez literally stifled a giggle before saying no -- as if the previous coaching staff had recruited anyone good enough to consider that. Rodriguez made mention several times of the Wolverines' small senior classes this year and next year and at his need to play true freshmen like quarterback Tate Forcier, who threw three interceptions in the fourth quarter Saturday.
"We have to identify our problems, and we have," Rodriguez said. "Some of them didn't occur overnight, and they won't be overcome overnight."
So what, Rodriguez was asked, have you learned in two years about what you'll need to ...
When our players in 2008 sucked. He didn't say that, but that's what he meant. Obviously. But the media didn't get it, so when reporters kept asking Rodriguez to explain how mighty Michigan could have fallen so far under his watch, Rodriguez all but pulled out a picture of Lloyd Carr.
"The last three Februaries, or four Februaries, have hurt us,"""
More here:
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/12559911/rodriguez-spoil…
Go Blue!
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:02 AM ^
We get the point that you hate RR and everything that has possibly gone wrong with the program (including what he can't control) the past two years is his fault. Now will you please just stop spewing it out every five seconds? Focus on something besides your hatred of RR.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:32 AM ^
He posted an article, which is a legitimate subject for discussion. He did not make any commentary on the article. People are starting to foam at the mouth whenever they see a Tom Hagan post, regardless of the actual content of the post. It's really silly.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:41 AM ^
No, what's silly is someone spending the past month on this board starting a new topic anytime something happens or something is written that makes Rodriguez look bad or Harbaugh look good. People are foaming at the mouth because posts like these have been his sole contribution to the board for the past month, and it's getting old. We get it, he doesn't like Rodriguez, he thinks we should hire Harbaugh, and the board has let him know why his reasoning is poor in each of the threads he has posted, and yet he won't stop.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:24 PM ^
we have also had to read a myriad of "i love rr" posts or "omg did jim harbaugh call a pass play"??!!
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:26 AM ^
...at the AnnArbor.com website, regarding the story on the arrest and questioning of the unnamed Michigan football player.
Without knowing the facts, without knowing who the player was or what the victim said, without having the slightest clue as to what (what on earth could it be?!?) Coach Rodriguez's role in the matter might have been, you wrote something to the effect that the program continues to melt down under Rich Rodriguez.
Your comment was taken down by the webmasters because they regarded it as a provacative personal attack. (I didn't really think it was such a personal attack -- I just thought that you were a complete idiot for posting such a stupid comment.)
Then, you went back to that Comments page, (Looking for a fight? Looking to see the results of your handiwork?) and apparently saw that your post had been taken down, so you posted another anti-Rodriguez provocation; the simple, true and thoroughly pointless thought that as a Freshman, the arrested player was, by deduction, "One of Rich Rodriguez's recruits."
You seem to want to post at MGoBlog with a kind of veneer of respectability and thoughtfulness to your anti-Rodriguez trolling. But your Ann Arbor.com posts have blown your cover.
You are not worth the wasted bandwidth to inquire, "What does any of this have to do with Rich Rodriguez?" I don't want you to answer that question. I don't want to see or hear anything from you.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:47 AM ^
things Section 1 but I completely agree with you about Tom. Last I checked these are young kids a lot of whom are from troubled areas of the country and while it is the head coaches job to police these students and to help them become the best person that they can be they cannot be their 24/7.
It's not like Lloyd never had any problems (see Larry Harrison) and that RR will never have another problem but this constant "everything is RRs fault let's burn his house down and run him out of town" bs that Tom Hagen keeps spewing is ridiculous.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:10 AM ^
I gotta say, I really didn't like the comment about the previous Februaries having "hurt us." The more I think about it, the more I wish it hadn't been said. Like it or not, that's a shot at Lloyd Carr that he probably doesn't deserve. This wasn't the time nor the place to make a comment like that.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:43 AM ^
So you would have rather him said "We have had great recruiting classes the last 4 years and it is soley the responsibility of the coaches that we can't win with such talent."?
What he said was the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts but that doesn't diminish it.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:53 AM ^
He could have easily just repeated his past comments about needing to add talent to the team, the youth of the team, and the lack of scholarship players, as he's done before. That acknowledges the truth, without moving to much more specific blame on the previous regime. I support RR and want him back next year. But he should not have put the blame on Carr, which, without saying his name, he did in that press conference.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:46 AM ^
Seriously? He didn't come out and say it was Lloyds fault, he said it was a few tough Februaries. This is FACT and if the "tough Februaries" were Lloyd's fault, than they were his fault, end of story. The fact that everyone jumped to that conclusion when he said it speaks to the fact that it WAS his fault.
Lloyd Carr is big boy, a former football coach and I'm sure he doesn't need to be treated with the kid gloves many people here think he should. His last few recruiting classes sucked, that is fact and I wouldn't take the blame for it if I were RR either.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:20 AM ^
Rodriguez inherited far less than what he expected, and I believe less than even Carr knew when he left or Rodriguez knew when he came. It seemed RR was arrogant in his public approach to taking the reigns at Michigan until he began to see the hand he was dealt, and then he began to step back immediately, not after a couple of games, but immediately. See "rally" at basketball game where RR tells the thousands hanging on his words that "We Will Try Hard."
More was expected from Rodriguez than it was possible for him to deliver from the very beginning. This press conference is what is remaining of that confident/defiant/arrogant coached referenced in the article. Literally completely out of any coach speak. He did not have much to begin with, and he has not managed what he had well. I assume he was including HIS first two Februaries in his evaluation, he IS NOT dodging responsibility, he is saying that there is plenty to go around.
The way I feel after the OSU game, however, is that Rodriguez gets it. I think Saturday was more than a football "loss" in the standings sense of the word. This was the first game it looked to me that Rich Rod's Michigan team had lost. The team that he has built and he is investing himself in. I don't know if I think that Rodriguez is now a Michigan man, or Michigan is now a Rich Rod team, but I felt like the team on the field mirrored the writer's descritpion of Rodriguez. Testy, Defiant until the end.
I don't think this team and this coach can win together until they have lost together. They have lost plenty in the last two years, but this seemed to be the first time the team and the coach had lost together. Rodriguez's press conference was not a "shot" at anybody. It was the truth. And this game was the beginning of the Rich Rod era. Go Blue. Go Coach Rod. Go Michigan.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:27 PM ^
Two of RR's recruiting classes are included in that total. He's blaming himself as much as he is blaming Carr. And honestly, both probably share equal blame.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:16 AM ^
A little more TomVH and a little less tomhagen.
One brings me a delicious sample platter of the many meals I'll be having tomorrow; the other spews unrequested garbage to nobody in particular. Thanks, I'm all set on the latter.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:23 AM ^
At the same time, I don't lend credence to articles penned by people who claim that Rodriguez a) ran off a bunch of players (those sympathetic to Justin Boren) and b) take the Freep allegations as fact without even considering that the allegations are extremely shaky and that nobody reputable who is actually involved with football takes them seriously.
Also, I don't take you seriously, because I have yet to see you make an argument against Rodriguez more substantial than, "he's losing". You instead rely on general crap that other people write. If you're going to take a view on the matter, at least make a point that you can defend in a legitimate argument. If you would like to actually debate the topic in depth, I'm sure that you'll find plenty of people (including myself) who are willing to oblige.
Oh, and the kool-aid analogy is getting tiresome. As in very tiresome. And for what it's worth, if we're really drinking the kool-aid, it doesn't really matter how it tastes does it.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:46 AM ^
How did you get so many points?
Do people give +1 when they see vomit?
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:29 AM ^
this is the wrong tom posting. gtfo. we want mr vanharen back.
November 23rd, 2009 at 2:39 AM ^
Februaries have hurt the program. Thats just fact.
November 23rd, 2009 at 12:35 PM ^
"Fact" or not, it's still not cool for RR to complain about the previous staff's recruiting. And I assume that even the apologists for this unseemly statement wish he hadn't said it.
Not only is it insulting to our players who just "played their hearts out" against Ohio State, but it's also just lame no matter the circumstances to bitch about this.
November 23rd, 2009 at 3:35 AM ^
Neither you nor this Doyle, er, Doyel guy know what Rodriguez is SAYING. All you know is what he said. You don't know that what he meant was anything different than what he said.
You spew forth your hatred on assumptions and interpretations. Where's the fact? There's no fact in that article.
Other than what Rodriguez said. The recruiting had fallen off. There is a lot of negative media attention. The program had begun to slide long before Rodriguez got here. These are statements of fact.
EDIT: Maybe the juniors who approached him weren't ready to go pro. Maybe he wasn't saying the players sucked. OBVIOUSLY. And, even if the recruiting hadn't fallen off, the attrition certainly does hurt, so even that's not necessarily a swipe at Lloyd.
While none of us enjoys the losing we've seen the last couple of years, opining like this isn't useful. Rodriguez wasn't considered a "hick", or an idiot, or a swindler, or anything like that until he left WVU for Michigan. At which point he suddenly became the most loathesome man on the planet.
As others have said, back up your hate with something tangible. But remember, he was brought in to rebuild this program from the ground up. Often to do that, you first need to tear it down.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:47 AM ^
"Maybe the juniors who approached him weren't ready to go pro."
That's a pretty safe bet since none of our Juniors are ready to go pro.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:21 AM ^
Isn't Warren a junior? I've seen him projected as a 1st-2nd round pick and wouldn't blame him if he left.
My many negative points speak to the fact that I fell out of love with RR and want to see him (and his piped-in jock jams) leave A2. That being said; I hope I'm wrong about him. I would love to eat some crow. I think all-in-for-Michigan means taking a critical look at a program that has no reason to be this bad.
I just worry that next year's excuse will be "how could anyone expect him to win when his D lost (arguably) 3 of it's top four players (Graham, Warren, Brown)".
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:03 AM ^
I have only seen him projected in the mid to late rounds (likely late because of all the other underclssment that will likely bolt with the CBA up in the air).
And actually, I don't think he is good enough to warrant leaving early anyway, but that is purely my opinion based on my inexperienced analysis of his game play.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:14 AM ^
where you are looking but there is no way that DW is a 1st or 2nd round pick. the only player that is going go in the 1st or 2nd round is BG... stevie is going to be a late round/FA signee because hes not big enough to play LB in the NFL and if any team watches the tape of him playing safety they are going to be hard pressed to use a pick on him.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:29 AM ^
It was from nfldraftscout.com
I don't know if that's a good or bad source (I'm not very into draft matters, but that's the first link I found with a projection for Warren).
In any event, I just worry that next year we'll be in the same position (or worse) on defense without enough guys to fill the holes.
November 23rd, 2009 at 4:56 AM ^
You're going to believe the noted Michigan and RR hating Doyel without seeing the press conference for yourself? I don't think I'd believe anything that comes up in the media these days re: Michigan without seeing the proof for myself.
Maybe I'm just being crazy, but it seems to me that there have been several questionable articles written about M and RR in the past couple years. Things such as "OMG!! RR Eats BABIES!!" written by a couple people who get paid to write stuff for a detroit yellow rag.
And I think perhaps a couple Februaries HAVE hurt them. People committing then deciding not to come on signing day? That hurts. Recruiting and signing players who don't develop? That hurts. Not getting players at areas of significant need? It's true.
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:56 AM ^
Posting the same drivel that is your opinion day after day after day, we understand that YOU hate RichRod and want him gone.
To quote Christian Bale "Oh, good for you!"
Everybody gets it and nobody cares about your daily anti-RR propaganda.
You and Doyel can GFY.
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:57 AM ^
When he failed to land JB Daniels in favor of Justin Feagin.
November 23rd, 2009 at 6:32 AM ^
Well, his choices on that one were A Program Violation or A Coke Dealer. I, for one, am glad he chose the coke dealer.
Also, his name is BJ Daniels, so I'm not sure how informed your opinion is.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:40 AM ^
It's not like he doesn't have a safety that's above a freshman, or walk-ons playing, or young kids playing all over the place.
Get your pitch-forks TOM HAGEN IS HERE!!!! If you honestly think that firing him right now is a good idea you're an idiot. That will just kill the program.
Oh no he said "we don't have the talent in place" yeah he really threw carr under the bus...
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:11 PM ^
but it's h-a-g-a-n.
As an actual Hagen, I felt the need to point that out.
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:57 AM ^
that he and Lloyd had the discussion about the past 3 or 4 Februaries, and that they're on the same page? Is it possible that Lloyd has the same perspective, and that was one of the reasons he left when he did - he just didn't have it in him to recruit the way he needed to anymore?
November 23rd, 2009 at 7:59 AM ^
I agree with the general thoughts of most here who are stating their disagreement with what Tom has said. For the past couple of months he has been quite negative (to put it mildly) about RR and his thoughts of the future under him.
Having said that, I am not sure why some here are telling him to stop posting or get the hell out of here. This is a board for UM fans to debate their thoughts about the team. Everyone has the opportunity to dispute what he is saying in this public forum for everyone to see (and people are obviously doing that).
I think if it was an article in the paper that, once out there could be thought of as fact (though after all the crap we have seen in the Freep, I can't imagine anyone considering articles are fact) that would be different, but here we can all type our various opinions and tell him why his don't match up with ours.
I just have a hard time thinking that a person sharing their opinion is a bad thing, even if it is nowhere near aligning with my own......just sayin'
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:25 AM ^
But Craig Roh's dad said that we aren't allowed to say anything negative EVER.
(Drenched with sarcasm and that special sauce that Quickie Burger puts on)
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:38 AM ^
Hear hear. I certainly don't agree with most of what Tomhagen posts, but the herd mentality and attempts to shut down dissent are far more disconcerting than a couple of posters who don't like Rich Rod. This post, for example, was nothing more than link, with quotes, from a well known columnist. It is a fair subject of discussion. It certainly didn't justify the negbanging and vitriol directed at the OP by the commentariat.
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:55 AM ^
Fuzzy, but it's not debate. Tom comes to this site and posts THE SAME SHIT every single day. That's trolling. He doesn't debate - he presents his opinions as "facts" and then insults everyone ("sunshine blowers", "kool-aid drinkers", whatever) who disagrees. If someone responds with a substantive counter-point, he ignores it, and calls them a kool-aid drinker. I don't have a huge problem with his point of view, but do with his method.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:06 AM ^
You know something is wrong when I agree with both chitown and Section 1.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:57 PM ^
It's cool to have a different opinion. It's cool to say it. It's uncool to say it every fcuking day with no analysis.
That bit where TomHagen blamed RR on ann arbor dot com was unquestionably the weakest post ever (most malicious and with the least integrity) and for that, the ban could be reasonably considered.
As a community is that tolerable?
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:23 AM ^
I'm all for debate and exchange of ideas/opinions but it's not much of a debate when someone reiterates the same points over and over and doesn't engage with the counterpoints people bring up. Not to mention that anytime someone does bring up a counterpoint, the response is an ad-hominen: "Kool-Aid Drinker," "Herd Mentality..."
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:10 AM ^
Speaking from experience, to even question some of Rich Rod's recruiting / coaching decisions, and even throwing in some hedging language as a sop, invites a number of neg votes (albeit not a full-throttled neg-bombing). So it's hardly a welcoming forum for debate.
Having seen the evolution of Tomhagen's posts over time, I think that it's his frustration with the antagonism towards dissenting options, rather than his frustration with Rich Rod, that drove him further and further over the brink. When legitimate attempts are debate are spurned, sometimes the easiest way to have your voice heard is to scream like a maniac.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:19 AM ^
with sound and logical arguments and then they neg him for being an idiot and what does he do? He doesn't respond. He hides and waits until the next evenly slightly negative thing so that he can troll again.
If you are a Michigan fan you should want Michigan to succeed which means that you should put your biases aside and wish and hope that he will succeed not look for every moment to bash the man and the program.
That is the problem.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:32 AM ^
Many people here simply get negged by a bunch of people for making any comment that isn't favorable of Rodriguez.
Also, what are you talking about when you say "put aside your biases"? If you're insinuating there is a faction of people that post here that are hoping for Rodriguez to fail? And please do not insinuate that the people here (barring the odd cases of non-Michigan fans) are hoping that Rodriguez will fail. I think that Rodriguez has made numerous mistakes (not anything fire-worthy, but certainly concerning ones) but I still root for Michigan to go out and win every game.
There may be (as in there probably is) a (small) faction in the athletic department that doesn't like Rodriguez. But that doesn't mean that we should be so paranoid as to claim that honest-to-God Michigan fans dislike Rodriguez so much that they hope Michigan will fail so that he'll get fired.
November 23rd, 2009 at 11:59 AM ^
Not necessarily the poster I responded to. Clearly Tom Hagen would rather see RR fail and Michigan falter than to see Michigan do well and RR succeed.
Tom Hagen is not a Michigan fan he can lose my number we aren't friends anymore he's not a "Michigan Man".
November 23rd, 2009 at 10:32 PM ^
Fuzzy D: I appreciate what you're saying, but ultimately, this is Brian's website. It's his editorial voice that brings all of us here, and shapes the comments on this board. This is not some wide-open forum for anyone to voice their opinion; anyone who wants that can start their own blog. When someone like Tomhagen brings so much negativity, and unsupported and poorly reasoned vitriol to this forum, he's going to come in for some well-deserved criticism by those of us who see him as someone who is hurting the website we enjoy so much. It's not that we crush any dissenting opinion; it's more that we don't see why he continues to frequent this site when he so clearly is in complete opposition to the tone Brian puts forward.
November 28th, 2009 at 12:33 PM ^
tone has changed considerably and he has acknowledged that rich has made mistakes and is calling for a 7-5 next year for rr to keep his job. thats a far cry from the "thank god we have RR as coach" posts that are ubiquitous on this blog.
November 28th, 2009 at 12:30 PM ^
side says the same thing...if something is brought up against richrod you guys always retort with "dont break your ankles jumping from the bandwagon."
just because im not a fan of the product rich has on the field thus far does not mean i havent supported this team every day since he was hired. does that make me a bandwagon fan
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:11 AM ^
RR did not say anything but the truth. Recruiting and attrition have hurt this team. I wish that the alumni (the powers to be) would just admit that the program RR was left, was in bad shape. I wish they would also admit that they do not question RR ability to get the job done, but they do question his character. Why else would all of the stories be leaked to the Free Press !
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:26 AM ^
I like that the quotes are arranged artfully and interspersed with just enough commentary and analysis couched as reporting to make it seem like Rodriguez is a towering dick. Cripes, I wish people would stop falling for this stuff. I mean, "all but pulled out a picture of Lloyd Carr"? Really? Seriously?
Yes, it's too bad that our last few Februaries haven't panned out the way we'd like them to. They were full of top rated players, sadly, none of those kids who were top rated at LB and S have panned out, stayed with the program, or gotten into school in the first place. It sucks that we had to fill 30-35 spots on the roster the moment RichRod was announced, given that we're only allowed to sign 25. Discipline problems that surfaced late in Lloyd's tenure have continued, and that sucks too. These are structural problems, and you can either acknowledge them or go live in a fantasyland. I prefer to live in the real world.
Them's the breaks. Get over it. Les Miles isn't coming here. Harbaugh isn't coming here. If we fire RR now, we lose another recruiting class or two, and then whee, we're stuck in this &*#$ for another 2-4 years before we even start to get better again. I wish Rodriguez was the miracle-worker that we all wanted him to be, but it turns out he's not. He's still the best answer we have: continuity, continuity, continuity.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:36 AM ^
Tom:
You have gone from being the epitome of "All in for Michigan" to what many here are now calling "The Tom Hagan Meltdown." You used to be an entertaining, patient, and loyal poster who knew that the rebuilding would take time. Somehow, though, you have gone over to the "dark side of the force."
I know it's been tough to watch these losses; I would venture to guess that everyone here feels your pain, because most of us love UM as much as you do. I know that this is a new experience for you, because you don't remember the sixties and what Bump Elliot did to the program.
The main difference was that when Bo took over the program, there were 115 scholarships to give out instead of 85. When attrition reared its head, there were plenty more fresh bodies to replace those who left. In addition, freshmen didn't play, reducing any age difference, and an experienced QB came back. So, Bo was able to get results the first year because he had a cupboard that was fully stocked, and all that was really needed was an attitude adjustment.
We all know what RR had to face when he got to UM. You of all people should understand that RR is not making excuses, but simply giving honest answers to the questions that reporters constantly ask him. Going back to Bo: do you think he would have allowed reporters to hammer him like they do RR? Of course not. He would have yelled at them and refused to answer questions. And many of the reporters would have suddenly seen their press credentials disappear.
You may percieve honesty as "throwing players under the bus" or "throwing Carr under the bus," but all it really is is a statement of fact. You can blame RR for attrition, but the players who left either wanted NFL money or realized it wasn't going to be a country club like it was under Carr and left.
No matter how hard you try, though, you can't blame RR for a bare cupboard, especially on defense and at QB. UM started an injured freshman at QB the last eight games of the season. Look at a tape of the ND game and then look at any game after the injury. Notice that Forcier's velocity has decreased a little. He could have gotten away with that in HS, but it made his job a lot tougher at UM.
As for Momma's Boy Mallett, he was gone no matter who was coaching. If you want to remember anything from 2007, Carr was barely able to keep Mallett from quitting on the team and going home in the middle of the season.
Anyway, the Tom Hagan who made clear, concise posts was great. His appearance here gained points faster than anyone I have seen who didn't post multiple posts in every thread. The Tom Hagan who was "All in for Michigan" was even one of the "trusted posters" who was unmoderated in Mlive chats. That privilege was only given to the most level-headed of posters.
Now, though, you sound like Lenny Bruce after he got bitter. Except Bruce was still sorta funny. You are not. You are now beating a dead horse. You are now flogging your log. But you aren't making much sense, nor, from all appearances, are you resonating with very many of your fellow fans here at mgoblog.
Please tell the present Tom Hagan to take a flying "leap" through a rolling doughnut. And while you're at it, tell him to untie the old Tom Hagan and let him come back to mgoblog, because he was a really fun, entertaining, concise, thoughtful poster.
Many people here forget the old Tom Hagan and just see you as a toxic presence in the now. I haven't forgotten. I just hope you haven't, either.
November 23rd, 2009 at 8:52 AM ^
I want to find all these morons email addresses. If and when RR starts to win games, just spam the fuck out of them with a giant I told you so go fuck yourself email.
Can we arrange this somehow.
November 23rd, 2009 at 9:43 AM ^
He doesn't start to win games? Quietly delete the email list? Just saying...