Don't miss this MSU fan post

Submitted by Fresh Meat on

There was a thread 3 pages back now on who was your least favorite Big Ten coach.  Naturally, a lot of people said Dantonio.  However, after this post got bumped back to the third page, this MSU fan piped in with this gem of a post and I didn't want people to miss a chance to respond.  Seeing as it was on the third page and done way after the thread was started, I figured people missed it.  Please respond, and enjoy.

"As the token MSU fan here, I always feel the need to stand up for my alma mater when it's being unfairly maligned, so I think I'll respond to this (though I know it's sort of wishful thinking to hope most of you will be swayed)...

  • Negative recruiter: This can be said about literally any college recruiter anywhere.  It's such a "squishy" term that people can label many, many kinds of standard recruiting practices as negative if they want to.  I also heard one DI coach say, "Don't want other guys to bad mouth your team?  Don't screw up," which I think is largely true.  Plus, considering the scrapbook of negative MSU newspaper clippings Carr liked to share with recruits and their parents, I'm not sure it's a good one for M fans to throw out there.
  • Doesn't care about academics - graduation rates at Cincy and MSU lowest in recent history for both schools:  OK, I'm calling 100% straight up BS on this.  Provide a link to an honest-to-God journalistic source, or you're just another rival fan plain lying about the other team.
  • "One you're fine, two you're out" policy encourages goonish behavior:  Playing Devil's Advocate for a second, is that as opposed to UM's "One you're fine, two you're fine" policy (see Stonum, Darryl)?  Look, Dantonio gets dinged by you guys for this, but really, what else is he supposed to do?  Pre-emptively kick guys off the team because they might screw up?  As a parent and an educator myself, I think what he does is exactly what you're supposed to do when a kid screws up:  teach them how to do it right and give them another chance.  If they screw up again, the consequences get more severe.  How does that "encourage goonish behavior"?
  • Threatens/bribes high school coaches in state:  OK, another fabrication?  Again - link, or you're just a liar.
  • Thuggish behavior of his players is a disgrace to conference:  I know you all have your opinions about Rather Hall, but the reality is a lot more complicated than you guys want it to be.  First of all, the "brawl" wasn't even a brawl.  I know, "Ski masks!" is a fun idea to throw around, but that's been pretty much entirely debunked (there's video of the entire event out there somewhere).  Sure, two guys assaulted some fraternity brothers who had jumped one of them the night before (and who were properly shown the door), but there were no real injuries caused to anyone (I believe someone complained of "scratches" and another of a "sore neck") and the entire thing was over in somewhere around a minute.  Were Division I football players brawling - being large, muscle-bound dudes prone to aggression - I'd venture to guess there would be some damage caused and it might be difficult to stop once started. Neither of those is true.  Second, Stuart Dunnings, the DA, is a UM grad who routinely throws the stiffest possible punishments at MSU athletes.  Third, the majority of the players were facing this  aggressive DA who was threatening serious jailtime and thus decided to plead down to get things over with ASAP.  I mean, BJ Cunningham pled to "assaulte" and "conspiracy to commit assault" because he held someone away from a teammate and tried but failed to kick someone else.  Outside of Winston and Jenrette, the other guys have similar stories, which jibes with the whole "no injuries, over quickly" elements.  So, while having five guys on your team who are guilty of misdemeanors isn't good (the others were either booted or transferred), the whole idea that MSU has more criminals than other college football teams is simply not true.  In fact, I'd wager that UM has had a similar number of legal incidents in the past four years (though not as many guys convicted, which is another story all together). 
  • Sets a classless example for fans toward rivals, encouraging bad sportsmanship:  Are you talking about his spat with Mike Hart?  I know you guys have a different view than I do (naturally) but does Hart get any blame from you guys for being classless?  I mean, I know he's one of the best backs you guys have ever had and all, but to borrow a phrase from my 3rd grader, "He started it!"  Seriously though, while I didn't like everything Dantonio said in response, I think the sum of his comments was pretty much perfect, all things considered.  UM's players and staff had been disrespectful toward MSU for years, culminating in Hart's comments, and he was calling them out for it and throwing down a gauntlet.   I think if he were given the chance to go back in time and amend what he said, he'd probably cut the "What is he, this tall?" crack (which I agree was in poor taste), but probably nothing else.  Or is there something else about it you guys have a problem with?

OK, that's probably more than most of you will read, and I probably didn't change anyone's mind, but I felt compelled to try, regardless.  Enjoy!"

Fresh Meat

August 4th, 2010 at 1:29 PM ^

Wait, you think that we are saying he should have pre-emptively thrown guys off the team?  How bout throwing the two guys off the team with convictions for violent crimes before they committ a second one?  How bout not letting a guy walk straight out of jail and straight into practice?  How bout cutting people involved in the brawl who weren't either A) repeat offenders or B) never going to contribute anyways?

And Stonum, Stonum is your example to counter?  He was actually suspended when he got in trouble.  You can't even compare not fulfilling every requirement of his parole to actually being convicted of a violent crime.  What an idiot.

Also, yes I do think the head coach of a team is held to a higher standard than a 21 year old kid.  Yes, Mike Hart started it.  If your third grader kicks you do you kick him back?  No (at least I hope not, but you are from MSU), you respond as the adult in the situation is expected to. 

TheCommodore

August 4th, 2010 at 3:03 PM ^

While several people involved in the brawl were non-contributors, three of the players were starters, including Wilson, who was a three year starter.  Another of the players (Johnson) wasn't a starter, but definitely could have made the starting lineup the next year, and at the very least would have been in the two deeps.  All of the other guys who transferred either announced they were transferring before, or were rumored to be considering transferring, and being suspended from the team indefinitely probably went a ways in helping make their decision. 

With Stonum, he was suspended for a game, and from what I've heard, failed on numerous counts in his probation.  Its one thing to miss a drug test, but when you demonstrate a continued disregard for your probation, then thats a problem.

As for the Hart thing, Dantonio overreacted, but Hart should have shut up.  That wasn't the first time, nor was it the last that Hart was talking crap to an opponent in the media.  Also, he was 21, he should have known better.  Its not like he was some 16 year old, he knew what he was doing was wrong, but he still acted like a fool.

Gomez35

August 4th, 2010 at 3:12 PM ^

Sweet - I didn't realize you guys would highlight my work like this (though most of your reactions are about what I expected).  I know you don't get many dissenting opinions around here, so maybe it's the novelty.  At any rate, I'll give it another go in response to this one...

Wait, you think that we are saying he should have pre-emptively thrown guys off the team?  How bout throwing the two guys off the team with convictions for violent crimes before they committ a second one?  How bout not letting a guy walk straight out of jail and straight into practice?  How bout cutting people involved in the brawl who weren't either A) repeat offenders or B) never going to contribute anyways?

If football coaches were expected to kick off the team every player who got in a fight, some of them would hardly be able to field enough guys (see Iowa and PSU in recent years).  I know you used the term "violent crimes" but can you explain why getting into a fight is a significantly worse crime than, say, committing burglary?  Now, once MSU players planned to go and assault someone - that's a worse crime, and was treated as such.

The whole "right out of jail and into practice" thing is totally overblown too, all because of the timing.  The fact is, by that time Glenn Winston had been suspended four games, missed all of bowl practice, missed winter workouts, missed spring camp, missed summer conditioning, and had served 180 days in jail.  Just because he happened to be released right when practice was starting doesn't mean he had a light punishment, or that Dantonio was going easy on him.  Quite to the contrary.

Finally, here's the list of players who you're referencing who were involved in the Rather Hall fiasco: 

  • Glenn Winston (starter - dismissed)
  • Rod Jenrette (starter - dismissed)
  • Mark Dell (starter - suspended, stayed)
  • BJ Cunningham (starter - suspended, stayed)
  • J'Michael Deane (part-time starter - suspended, stayed)
  • Oren Wilson (starter - suspended, transferred)
  • Jamiihr Williams (backup - suspended, transferred)
  • Fred Smith (backup - suspended, stayed)
  • Chris L. Rucker (starter - suspended, stayed)
  • Ashton Leggett (backup - suspended, transferred)
  • Brynden Trawick (backup - suspended, transferred)
  • Ish Johnson (backup - suspended, transferred)
  • Chris D. Rucker (backup - suspended, stayed)
  • Donald Spencer (backup - suspended, stayed)

Only the two-timers were cut.  Now you can argue that some of the transfers were "suggested" transfers, but several of them were poised to be starters or challenging for starting spots this season, and the majority of backups stuck around.  Hardly kicking scrubs to the curb, and it seems to me all of them served appropriate punishments (i.e. suspensions + community service).

And Stonum, Stonum is your example to counter?  He was actually suspended when he got in trouble.  You can't even compare not fulfilling every requirement of his parole to actually being convicted of a violent crime.  What an idiot.

You did see where I said I was playing Devil's Advocate, right?  Plus, if you read my post again I hardly equated the two crimes, just the handling.  The fact is, every single MSU player under Dantonio who has had even a minor brush with the law (even "urinating in public" when a kid got busted peeing in the bushes on the way home from a party) has been suspended for some amount of time or another, just like I assume has happened at UM.  At MSU, if the same players screwed up again, they got more serious punishment, which, in fact, did not happen with Stonum (though, to be fair, I don't know all the details of his probation violation, so can't say a lot about it).  Not as egregious as Bowman's deal at PSU, but still.

Also, yes I do think the head coach of a team is held to a higher standard than a 21 year old kid.  Yes, Mike Hart started it.  If your third grader kicks you do you kick him back?  No (at least I hope not, but you are from MSU), you respond as the adult in the situation is expected to.

You obviously missed my sarcasm (damn internet).  And the part where I said I wish Dantonio hadn't cracked about Hart's height.  But where I come from, 21 years old does not a kid make.  He should own his smart-ass, disrespectful comment, just like Dantonio should.  Now, like I asked before:  What, aside from the crack about Hart's height, did Dantonio say that was disrespectful?  Because that's all I see, and that's not significantly worse than what Hart said.

 

G

Credit812

August 4th, 2010 at 3:43 PM ^

I won't adress your comments about the Rather Hall incident, except to point out that maybe you should ask your hockey coach about his opinion on your football coaches commitment to discipline.

As far as his big mouth, remember that he was the one who started off his first postgame press conference by asking for a moment of silence for Michigan (after the App State loss).  Of course he got into a pissing match with a player half his age after he had lost a game (at lease Spurrier talked junk after he won).  After getting blown out by 40 to end the season at Penn State in 08, he said that he wasn't disappointed because "at least we didn't go 3-9"  He stated publically that he'd rather his team miss the Rose Bowl than root for Michigan against Ohio State.  Can you imagine Paterno, Tressel, Carr, or even Izzo ever saying any of those type of things?

i'll give him credit, he certainly understands the mindset of the spartan fanbase.  He's saying the type of things that really resonate with them.  But in so doing, he's really cementing MSU's position as a second tier football program, who is more concerned about beating their big brother* than being an elite football program.  He's not much different than all the State coaches that came before him.  His record after 30 games was 17-13, the same as JLS, two games better than Bobbie Williams, and half a game better than Nick Saban's.

*-State is our little brother, because they're family, and they are younger than us.

Fresh Meat

August 4th, 2010 at 3:56 PM ^

I'm not trying to be a dick, I honestly want to know.  Why do you post here?  In fact, why do you even visit here?  I can honestly say that I have never in my life been to the site of another team.  It A)doesn't interest me and B) I have enough on my plate with work, family, etc., that I only have time to be active in one place, so I make it a place that is for my team.

Honestly, why?  I know the joke comments are "inferiority complex, MSU is obsessed with us, MSU grad out of work obviously so he has more time" etc., and maybe some of those are true, but if not, then why?

Sac Fly

August 4th, 2010 at 1:34 PM ^

... when glen winston showed up at aj sturges house in the middle of the night, his skull was fractured, not "scratches" and a "sore neck"

jackrobert

August 4th, 2010 at 3:18 PM ^

Plus, what's up with Spartan fans not understanding what assault is: "BJ Cunningham pled to 'assaulte' and 'conspiracy to commit assault' because he held someone away from a teammate and tried but failed to kick someone else."

In other words, Cunningham committed assault, which is an attempt to hit someone or conduct that puts another in imminent fear of being hit (such as throwing a punch at someone even if you didn't intend to actually hit the person).

The Freep had the same problem.  It tried to downplay the assault charges in the same fashion, even going so far as to ask its trusty legal expert about assault when it covered the Rather Hall "incident."

I understand assault is an abstract concept, one that may strain the intelligence of many Spartans and Free Press reporters.  But the rest of us can agree assault is a good law to have on the books, right?

Sac Fly

August 4th, 2010 at 5:30 PM ^

.. they don't mention is that this whole thing was planned. i met an MSU student at a bar in wisconsin and was telling me about how the football players basically sat down and came up with a plan so that they couldn't lose this fight, that's why they showed up at his house in the middle of the night in a big group, with no shirts on, because they knew the way hockey players like to fight. any angle the hockey players could have used to their advantage was taken away. also glen winston never issued an apology, nor was he asked to by the coaching staff

TG7782

August 4th, 2010 at 1:35 PM ^

Wasn't Stonum suspended a few games?  How many games did Glenn Winston get suspended for?  Surely he wouldn't be allowed right back onto the football field after spending numerous months in the clink.

 

jrt336

August 4th, 2010 at 1:37 PM ^

I'm pretty sure almost beating someone to death and missing a meeting or appointment or whatever Stonum missed is quite different.

UMMAN83

August 4th, 2010 at 1:38 PM ^

sites, following our recruiting, staring at the clock.  Sounds like some serious envy or complex to me.  I never follow them unless they play us.  I could care less. Go Blue!!!

DesHow21

August 4th, 2010 at 1:42 PM ^

The correct prescription for their  "condition" (being sparty) is regularly scheduled beatdowns and ignoring them studiously for the rest of the year.

We will resume production of this medicine this year.

megalomanick

August 4th, 2010 at 1:46 PM ^

Perhaps my chronology is all off, but didn't the Hart/Dantonio thing start with Dantonio's "moment of silence" comment after The Horror? It was later that season that Hart did his post game antics on the field and made the "little brother" comments. Did something happen the year prior to this?

Yinka Double Dare

August 4th, 2010 at 1:59 PM ^

Nope, I think that's what people point to as starting it.  Not to mention, does anyone actually think that Jim Tressel, Joe Paterno, or Kirk Ferentz would have responded to Mike Hart or made fun of him?  Hell no.  The only coach in the conference who I think might also do something like that is Hope at Purdue.  And I'm not even sure he'd do that.

MGoRob

August 4th, 2010 at 3:21 PM ^

I certainly do believe you're right.  Also, weren't Hart's comments after the game in which we were down like 17 points in the 4th quarter?  One or several MSU players were talking trash to the fans and the TV cameras saying "Remember this day, the day we beat Michigan" before the game had ended.  And they lost anyway.  I don't know if Hart had heard those words, but to me, the fan, I loved hearing his response.

Sgt. Wolverine

August 4th, 2010 at 1:54 PM ^

"link, or you're just a liar" and then says "Stuart Dunnings, the DA, is a UM grad who routinely throws the stiffest possible punishments at MSU athletes" without any real substantiation.  That seems like a serious charge to make, but he just makes it and moves on.  Since he didn't link to anything, does that make him a liar?

Edit: oops, just a few seconds too slow.  Oh well.

Gomez35

August 4th, 2010 at 3:26 PM ^

Well, there's the Glenn Winston deal, where a fight involving two people with no prior record ended with one of them serving the longest possible time allowed under the law.

"I do believe the sentence is harsher than normal," said Winston's attorney, Jim Newton of MSU Student Legal Services. "I have never seen that type of sentence in this type of case.

There's also Rather Hall, where rather than initiate plea deals with the major instigators from the get-go (which is pretty standard procedure for minor fights on campus - how many fratties get booted for their Friday night fisticuffs?), Dunnings charged every athlete who was present, whether they actually threw punches or not.

Going back further, Kellen Freeman Davis was arrested for pushing a kid into the river after the kid had assaulted him in the first place.  There's also Terry Love and Irving Campbell who blew up a pop bottle bomb in an empty parking lot who were charged with "bomb making".

I know, in places like Ann Arbor, Iowa City, and Happy Valley, cops and lawyers tend to take care of athletes (not much in Ann Arbor since Rodriguez took over, admittedly), but that just doesn't happen in East Lansing.

 

G

Edward Khil

August 4th, 2010 at 5:35 PM ^

Glenn Winston should have been charged with something more than just "assaulte" (sic).

Here's A.J. Sturges:

 

"I was standing in my front yard trying to figure out what was going on when Glenn Winston punched me in the head from the side. I never saw him. I did not have any chance to protect myself at all. Neither did his other victims.

"That night, I received a fractured skull, five stitches inside my mouth, and a subdural hematoma, or bleeding on the brain. I was not involved in a college fight, as this story is perceived. After having nothing to do with any events that occurred earlier that night, I was attacked in my own house.

"As a hockey player, I know what a fight is. What happened that night was not a fight. What happened was a violent crime. Pure and simple."

Winston could have killed him.  And Dantonio coddled Winston beyond understanding.  Face it.

MrWoodson

August 5th, 2010 at 12:07 AM ^

I know, in places like Ann Arbor, Iowa City, and Happy Valley, cops and lawyers tend to take care of athletes...

You are not being fair to EL's finest. They simply don't have enough manpower to cover for all the MSU players who get into trouble.

NFZ

August 4th, 2010 at 1:55 PM ^

I have actually stopped talking to Sparty fan's about football and sports in general because i feel it makes me dumber. This post reinforces that belief. Typical sparty.

Bodogblog

August 4th, 2010 at 1:57 PM ^

Rather Hall: humiliating because the same thing happened again - the players don't respect Dant

Classless: invoking Michigan after getting lit up by Penn State was the ultimate reflection of the collective inferiority complex of the MSU fanbase.  I bet you felt better after that

You guys were 6-7 last year.  We grit and take it like a man when that happens.  MSU fans are thumping their chests.  See the difference there?

wmu313

August 4th, 2010 at 1:58 PM ^

I dislike MSU fans more than OSUers. Buckeyes are crude, violent, and filthy, but they are amusing sometimes. Sparty is just so abrasive and stupid, and it's exhausting trying to argue with one about UM v MSU issues.. I really hope UM hangs 40 on them this year, by halftime, and RR doesn't call off the dogs. Would love to see the scowl on dantonio's face when he looks up at the scoreboard and sees 63-14.