Do Academic Standards Affect Recruiting?

Submitted by Enjoy Life on
Reading the post "WTF is happening with the Assistant Coaching arms race?" by Chitownblue, I wondered: Is there an affect on college football recruiting related to the academic standards of a university? Are recruits less likely (or more likely) to commit to a U with high academic standards?

PattyMax64

January 22nd, 2009 at 8:04 PM ^

Not really, it does go the other way though. Some schools have higher standards, and will not recruit kids who are not up to them. An example would be Tyrone Willingham at Notre Dame, he tried to keep his kids at the same academic level as the rest of the school. Harbaugh is trying to do this at Stanford as well.

Tacopants

January 22nd, 2009 at 8:09 PM ^

This is one of those situations where you can probably refer back to NCAA 09. Every recruit is different, every recruit will value some aspects of schools over the others. For every recruit that loves the fact that M is a top 25 school you'll find another that could care less. So, some recruits are more likely to commit based on academics, some don't care, and some might not be able to academically qualify/stay in school.

Seth

January 22nd, 2009 at 9:28 PM ^

Schools with high academic rigor have historically done very, very well, and I think will continue to do well. Cal Standford Michigan UCLA Notre Dame Duke Wisconsin Vanderbilt Looking at the list of historically winning football (or basketball) programs gives you a who's who of the top academic institutions of America. I think that it doesn't help for ALL students. But I think there are a lot of ballers who realize most of the kids that Lemming terms a "stud" are very unlikely to make their way in the world as a Pro player. Therefore, the University you graduate from helps a lot. However, I think this affect has been progressively receding over the last half-century or more. One big reason is simply the scholarship limits, which mean many fewer players can go to the top schools. But the trend has continued because the lax NCAA has stood idly by while the schools make their football programs into professional franchises in every sense except making the players millionaires. In the SEC these days, it's considered strange if one coach sees a recruit from the day he enters school to graduation. Even in the more academically inclined conferences - the Big Ten and Pac Ten - coaches who put a high value on the student aspect of their student athletes were considered an anachronism. In his quest to rebuild Michigan in Northern California, Jim Harbaugh made a cutting comment that led to Hart's impassioned response (and we all, of course, backed Hart). But there was prescience in that comment, not because a football player with a degree from Michigan is less than any other graduate from Michigan, but because, and this is the important part, employers generally believe there's a difference. Say you're an employer. A guy comes to you with a degree from Ohio State. That's a good school. Their research endowment in your field is incredible. You ask what he studied, right? General studies. You press, and find out he played for Jim Tressel. He was 4-, borderline 5-star recruit coming out of high school. He was sold on football. He lived football. Then football no longer wanted him. I'm an employer. If you played for Jim Tressel, I will hear you out, but that's a knock on you right there, because I know that man doesn't care about his students' academics, and therefore his students are unlikely to care about academics, and therefore your college experience is very unlikely to have provided you with the knowledge and ethical background you need to do what we do. The thing is, recruits don't see it from the employer's view, but they have the same stereotype in their mind, which is "a football player isn't a real graduate." And that's true enough at Ohio State, it's true enough at Florida State, and it seems to be true enough -- with major exceptions -- all over the SEC, ACC, and Big XII. The NCAA has let this happen, because it make a better product. Seriously, how much do guys like us care if Tate Forcier is getting a background in the politics of Late Antiquity and applying that to the modern business atmosphere? We want his nose in a playbook, not Licinius! And so does ABC, who's going to broadcast his games. And unless he's got a strong reason otherwise -- and I believe Rich Rod does -- neither may his coach. The reason the SEC, and even the ACC is kicking our asses now is because they've upped the ante again. Brian keeps giving shit to Bama and UNC for over-stuffing beyond the scholarships they have. But mark my words, this strategy will work out for those programs football-wise. And then more schools will do it too. It's not just NCAA. More people go to college now, and that means undergraduate degrees don't mean nearly the same as they did before. A piece of paper with a block M is no longer an instant ticket to financial well-being. That's why academics means less to recruits today than it did 50, or 40, or 30, or 20, or even 10 years ago. Or, I should say, that's why fewer recruits put academics at the top of their list. The reason most had to go to Notre Dame, or Michigan, or Stanford, or any of these schools in the first place, was the opportunity to walk out with a degree of impeccable worth. With those degrees devalued, particularly when they're in the hands of a scholarship athlete -- from a school known for not giving a damn about educating their top-sport scholarship athletes -- it's simply not as much of a consideration for students. I don't pass judgment on this system, except to say that whenever NCAA makes a pro-academic move, it's good for Michigan recruiting, and vice versa.

Enjoy Life

January 22nd, 2009 at 10:23 PM ^

I'm confused. You stated: "Schools with high academic rigor have historically done very, very well, and I think will continue to do well. Cal Standford Michigan UCLA Notre Dame Duke Wisconsin Vanderbilt" From Scouts.com -- None of these schools are in the Top 11. M is #12 Standford #13 UCLA #14 nd #22 Cal #23 Wisc #50 That's OK (for some, not all) but it looks like the top recruits are going to the schools with lower academic standards. I was referring primarily to Football (sorry, I did not make that at all clear).

chitownblue (not verified)

January 22nd, 2009 at 10:46 PM ^

Well, I think we can agree that even though Michigan is a good school, their academic requirement for football players is "Does he meet the minimum NCAA requirements?". The same can be said of other good schools that have good teams - like USC. The other group - Rice, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Stanford, Duke, Wake Forest, traditionally ask their player to meet elevated academic standards. It's undeniable, though, that of the current tier of top football teams, very few quality academic schools are on the list - Oklahoma, Oregon, Alabama, Georgia, Florida State, Auburn, LSU, Tennessee are all miserable schools that almost exist for football. Then you have schools like Michigan, Texas, Florida, Penn State, Wisconsin, and USC - schools that have quality academics, that they probably don't hold their players to.

Brodie

January 23rd, 2009 at 12:30 AM ^

I don't think some of those schools are "miserable". Miserable is Sonoma State, Oklahoma might not be Michigan level or even top 150 but they have their strengths, same for Oregon, et al. They're still better than most universities in this country.

panthera leo fututio

January 23rd, 2009 at 8:35 AM ^

I think it's a mistake to assess the value of a college education solely in terms of the prestige the degree conveys to a student. Presumably that student will also learn stuff, develop new methods of thinking, etc. I'm not sure how big a role this aspect of education (the actual education part) plays in recruits' minds, but I imagine it plays at least some role for some recruits. And I would rather take a watered-down athletic courseload taught by UM faculty than a similar courseload taught by, say, MSU faculty. (UNC and Texas are two more examples of good schools that enjoy considerable success in college football recruiting.)

Other Chris

January 22nd, 2009 at 10:40 PM ^

I am socially acquainted with a Division 1 revenue sport head coach and according to him, you have to spread out the risk. Suppose there is a kid with really mediocre grades and really mediocre test scores, but he has talent and appears to be a basically good kid. He can scrape through on the admission requirements and fills a position of need on your team. Maybe it's just that no one ever really required him to apply himself, and within the framework that the university offers for athletes, he'll be able to succeed. So, you take the risk. The thing is, you can't take too many risks, or the wrong ones, or not only do they fail, but they might drag a few other kids down with them. It's a balance -- you want the best athletes, and you want to offer them opportunities, but you need to keep an eye on the overall academic attitude and achievement of the team. Then there's the NCAA clearinghouse, which might rule athletes ineligible because what they have as high school coursework is deemed insufficient, whether or not a college has offered them. That could be foreign students, homeschooled students, or even kids from really crappy high schools.

Jeffro

January 22nd, 2009 at 11:48 PM ^

General studies is the perfect academic program for a RB recruit ranked number one in the country. All he’ll need is a .7 high school G.P.A. and at least a 6 on his ACT. Another option is the school of kinesiology. A school like Michigan basically has more options when it comes to recruiting. If they are left to choose between 2 four star running backs, they may shy away from the dumb one because he’s a risk to become academically ineligible later on. Same thing goes with discipline. However if you’re a top recruit and have poor grades, a good academic school might be willing to put more effort into your academic success. At the osu, they create entire “special” classes for football players that don’t even exist.

Garvie Craw

January 23rd, 2009 at 8:08 AM ^

"Then you have schools like Michigan, Texas, Florida, Penn State, Wisconsin, and USC - schools that have quality academics, that they probably don't hold their players to." I think that's true. Just because a school has quality academics that doesn't mean the athletes are in a rigorous program. I believe there was truth in what Harbaugh said.

chitownblue (not verified)

January 23rd, 2009 at 9:56 AM ^

Well, I think we can be honest. Those of us that went to U of M - were the football players you dealt with on par intellectually with most of the other students? I know a few who were (Rob Renes was a TA of mine when he was a 5th year senior, Dhani Jones was very smart, Jon Jansen was very smart, Charles Woodson was smart) but few with whom it was blatantly clear that they didn't belong, purely from an academic level. My father is somewhat involved in Vanderbilt's football program (from a "booster" angle, as laughable as that is for Vanderbilt football), and is aware of the academic resumes of the kids who play - and they are all fairly impressive. They are, by and large, kids who would be at Vanderbilt even if they couldn't play football. It's an interesting dynamic there - because they have no tradition of success, the alumni that support the team actually take the academic acheivements of the team (I think roughly half the SEC all-Academic team came from there) as point of pride, and dwell on that much more than wins and losses on the field. They LOVE Bobby Johnson merely because he's shown he can win 5-7 games without selling their souls.

Enjoy Life

January 23rd, 2009 at 4:50 PM ^

I have interviewed college students for jobs. I agree that if you are looking at 2 students that are very similar, then the University they attended is a consideration. But, if you have a student with a 3.0 GPA from a school ranked 100 versus a student with a 2.0 GPA from Michigan, guess who got the job? Hint: It was not the M grad.

TomW09

January 23rd, 2009 at 5:14 PM ^

Well, isn't your situation a no-brainer? Ranked 100 is pretty good and a 2.0 is miserable. But a 2.5 (I won't say 2.0 b/c if you get a 2.0 you didn't belong in that school) at Michigan is comprable to a much, much higher GPA in smaller schools. I've attended 3 Universities. I have a 3.1 at Michigan. I can safely I'd be around a 3.5 at Oakland and a 3.8 at UM-Flint. There's a big difference in top schools. I look at it this way. Microsoft, Google, Amazon, and Intel come to 6 universities to find their future employees. Michigan is one of them. So I guess my question to Enjoy Life is: do you really value a number that is only a sign of relative intelligence (to classmates) more than the quality of education?

Enjoy Life

January 23rd, 2009 at 5:25 PM ^

M is a great (greatest) University. However, USNews & World Report Rankings: "The indicators we use to capture academic quality fall into seven categories: assessment by administrators at peer institutions, retention of students, faculty resources, student selectivity, financial resources, alumni giving, and (for national universities and liberal arts colleges) "graduation rate performance," the difference between the proportion of students expected to graduate and the proportion who actually do." "Our rankings of accredited undergraduate business programs and engineering programs are based exclusively on peer assessment data gathered from the programs' deans and senior faculty members." Few if any of these criteria measure how much a student learns. So, yes, we hired people with 3.0 from Lawrence Tech before 2.5 from M.

TomW09

January 23rd, 2009 at 5:38 PM ^

Well, that situation is fine and dandy, you just made it sound a bit like GPA was the deciding hiring factor, or at least a major one. I think that using a GPA as an indicator of intelligence or worthiness is very flawed. Sure I can see it used as a weeding process, but not as a deciding factor. The classes I've learned the most and gained the most skill in I've received 2.3 and 2.7's. The classes I've learned the least or least valuable skills I've gotten A's in. I guess it all depends on an individual, but I think GPA's are vastly over-rated at the college level.