November 27th, 2013 at 10:24 PM ^
November 27th, 2013 at 10:27 PM ^
I don't think we'd have won a lot of games in 2011 with Russell Bellomy starting at QB, this is true.
November 27th, 2013 at 10:35 PM ^
November 27th, 2013 at 11:35 PM ^
Paul Hackett (to use a coach I don't particularly like/respect) recruited Carson Palmer (and other good players at USC). Without him, Pete Carroll doesn't win the Orange Bowl in his 2nd year. In that limited sense, Hackett is totally responsible for Carroll's early success. In the same way that Roundtree dropping that TD pass against ND or Gibbons making the kick @PSU changes our record (even though tons of causes led up to those points).
I don't think it is particularly controversial to point out a team would have nowhere near as good a record without a bunch of contributors to that team. It is also fair to say that no coach inherits a team with zero players leftover from a prior regime, so parsing out credit/blame is clearly more art than science.
November 27th, 2013 at 10:52 PM ^
These scores don't lie.
2008 Michigan 7 Ohio State 42 Columbus RR
2009 Michigan 10 Ohio State 21 Ann Arbor RR
2010 Michigan 7 Ohio State 37 Columbus RR
2011 Michigan 40 Ohio State 34 Ann Arbor Hoke
2012 Michigan 21 Ohio State 26 Columbus Hoke
For RR, that's being outscored an even 100 - 24. His offenses weren't exactly tearing it up when it mattered.
For Hoke so far that 61-60. Saturday probably wont go so well for us, but let's call a spade a spade.
Not sure what your agenda is. Many here feel that RR should have been given a 4th year, but this idea you are trying to perpetuate that success was right around the corner and Hoke and staff simply won with RR's talent is not supported by history. RR never beat MSU or OSU. The defenses were putrid. The biggest difference between 2011 (Hoke's first year) and the 3 RR years was the defense being competent. RR had 3 years to fix that and couldnt. No doubt Hoke's offenses have regressed over his tenure here, but let's not rewrite the history on RR. There was 0 progress with the defense. It was all on the offensive side of the ball and even that was lackluster in any game with a defense with a pulse. Such performance would never have gotten the job done in terms of meeting expectations at Michigan.
November 28th, 2013 at 3:15 PM ^
November 27th, 2013 at 9:56 PM ^
November 27th, 2013 at 10:05 PM ^
Ball State was 16-18 in the three years before Hoke arrived. Then he went 34-38 over six seasons. Like, the exact same record, and only that good because he went 12-1 in his last year, bailed, and the program cratered without Nate Davis the following season.
I'm glad you're impressed with the guy. One good year at Ball State in six, one decent year at SDSU, and a program going down the tubes here at UM doesn't blow my skirt up. Sorry. I hope your hope gives you comfort. Just don't come crying to me when 2011 starts looking like a long time ago.
November 27th, 2013 at 10:15 PM ^
s/
November 27th, 2013 at 10:26 PM ^
November 27th, 2013 at 10:41 PM ^
Rich Rodriguez had three straight top-10 finishes at WVU with a team made entirely of his guys. He walked into a shitstorm that (however you want to cast all the blame to go around) left us with a broken program by the time he coached his first game. We were losing only Schilling and Mouton as longtime/quality contributors from a 7-6 team in 2010, and getting some guys back from injury. I thought we'd look a lot better no matter who coached the team in 2011 (I made a lot of Charlie Weis comparisons and feared we'd grow immediately attached to whoever walked through the door). People said I was nuts, and that the new guy had a big rebuilding job, especially on defense. We looked a lot better. People said it will only get better because this new staff is awesome and that's why we're so good. They'll also bring in way better guys. It is getting worse and people are now acting like even the great Brady Hoke can't overcome the terrible task of having to find two semi-competent offensive linemen by year three (which guys like Rodriguez, Harbaugh, etc. managed to do just fine).
Meanwhile, the guy who was the big problem has the same record (at Arizona) that we do the last two years. He's won twice as many games there as he did in two years here (So maybe the situation wasn't exactly ideal?).
Unlike his predecessor, Brady Hoke is going to get year four. Maybe even year five. As he should. I just don't think we'll be 11-2 again. And then the boogeyman won't be around any more. We'll see who is right. Maybe we're both right (Hoke will succeed immensely here while RR does the same in Tucson). But I'm not wrong in the first instance simply because Dave Brandon thought so three years ago. Nor is he right because of 2011 (SEE Weis, Coker, etc.).
November 27th, 2013 at 10:46 PM ^
Dude I agree that RR wasn't given a chance, but RR gave up like 600 yards per game and we went from 110th in the nation in defense to 10th in a year when Mattison got here.
November 27th, 2013 at 11:01 PM ^
Stanford finished next to last in their conference in defense in Harbaugh's third year there. When I pointed it out three years ago, people acted like it was just destiny that proved Harbaugh's awesomeness and claimed Stanford's rebuild couldn't be compared to Michigan's (when we now know that Arizona after a 4-8 season was in far better shape than the team Rich Rod actually got to coach out of the gate here). Harbaugh brought in a new coordinator, the good young players he brought in grew up, and the next year they were 3rd in the conference and 1st in scoring D, on their way to a 12-1 season.
The roster objectively got worse on D each year Rodriguez was here because of recruiting gaps before he arrived. The roster was going to objectively get better in 2011 when Mouton was the only big/quality contributor graduating.
People said he wasn't fixing the defense, and then we got to see a defense with Ryan, Morgan, Countess, Roh (as an upperclassman), etc. Lo and behold we've been good for three straight years on that side of the ball. Rodriguez deserved a shot with non-freshmen in the secondary. Just like Hoke deserves a shot with non-freshmen on the interior o-line (though as I've mentioned, Dave Brandon's role in that situation seems to be one he'd like to gloss over). The only difference is, RR didn't have an All-American DB around in 2010 to lighten the load.
And speaking of Harbaugh, do you think Brandon is going to hold Hoke to that standard of excellence in year 4? Or are we going to pretend that rebuilding from the horrors of Rich Rodriguez is way more difficult than inheriting a winless team in the Pac-12?
November 28th, 2013 at 1:02 AM ^
November 28th, 2013 at 1:59 AM ^
cosign
November 28th, 2013 at 10:31 AM ^
For things like bitching about a kickoff out of bounds being a sign of coaching incompetence on the part of Rich Rodriguez but a missed extra point by Harbaugh's team meaning nothing because they happened to be winning. And I regularly pointed out that our trajectory looked exactly like Stanford's under Harbaugh (complete with terrible defense in year 3) and was told that none of that mattered because Michigan >>>> Stanford and couldn't possibly be in a situation that is twice as bad as Arizona after a 4-8 season.
Rich Rodriguez hadn't been fired during that game. I was arguing we shouldn't fire him simply because some knuckleheads thought we would get Harbaugh, guaranteed. Not claiming that if we did so, someone like Brady Hoke would be a better option to hire than Jim Harbaugh.
November 27th, 2013 at 10:52 PM ^
I think it's reasonably high, FWIW - I certainly hope so. I liked RR a lot and defended him until the Gator Bowl, but he was not a good fit at Michigan - or Michigan was not a good fit with him, if you like. The reasons people seemed to dislike him forever changed my opinion of Michigan football culture for the worse, but we're stuck with it. Hoke is accepted at U of M, and RR just wasn't, and that's not all DB's doing by a longshot.
November 27th, 2013 at 11:31 PM ^
November 27th, 2013 at 11:47 PM ^
RR's record with his own guys is to me incredibly relevant. It gave every reason for erring on the side of giving him one year to see what he was actually building. The same year Brandon is going to give Hoke without questions asked. His best seasons also ended with BCS bowl wins over big conference champions. Something we haven't done in a long time (1999).
I was skeptical of the Hoke hire at first, but have been supportive up until this year. Now I'm seeing hyped recruiting that can't produce the same kinds of players Rodriguez brought in on the o-line (in year 3, comparing apples to apples) and all our eggs in the Shane Morris and Derrick Green baskets (the only 4+ star recruits at QB and RB in 3+ classes). Combine that with no prior track record of elite success (IMO), and I just don't see this working out. And for me working out would be something better than the Carr years.
I don't think he should get fired. If he wants to keep Borges I'm fine with that. I'm just not going to invest as much emotionally as I do normally. Hopefully that isn't undermining the program like nasty internet rumors. If anything, I'm bashing Brandon for having blind faith in one guy and nothing but vitriol for a guy who was in an almost identical position in year 3 (one side of the ball a disaster with youth as a big factor). Especially when one had a track record of high level success elsewhere and the other doesn't. And one is depending way more on the prior guys players while the AD acts like they're the problem (QB, RB, leading WR, 2 OL, 7 defensive starters against Iowa).
November 27th, 2013 at 10:34 PM ^
November 27th, 2013 at 10:47 PM ^
I didn't throw out that fact. I simply noted that even with that one fact in his favor, his record was the same as Bill Lynch's. And in year three his record is worse than Jerry Kill's. At Minnesota. Following Tim Brewster. But I guess that wasn't the rebuilding job walking into a Sugar Bowl winning team was for the Hokester.
If you want to bet a dollar that we go 11-2 or better next year, I'll gladly take your action. Outside of that, don't bother responding to any of my posts. I know what you think. You don't back it up with anything but optimism and enthusiasm. While that is adorable, it doesn't interest me. I will just assume you don't agree with me and you can save yourself the fingertip blisters.
November 27th, 2013 at 11:02 PM ^
I'm no Hoke apologist. I think he is a dunce when it comes to a lot of the X's and O's, and is often just a game day cheerleader. That being said, the defenses have been good to excellent every year since he got here and his recruiting is stellar. RR's offenses were good against shit competition and the defenses were an embarrassment. His recruiting was meh for what the Michigan brand has historically pulled.
I liked the idea of RR...taking us into modern college football, but he had 3 years to field a middling, average defense and couldnt. That would have saved his job. In the end, RR was a dream unfulfilled, and it wasn't simply because Brandon didn't give him year 4.
Is Hoke elite? In my opinion, no. But with a Mattison type coordinator on offense, like a Cam Cameron, he can steward this program towards perennial top 10.
Will he outcoach Meyer on game day? Probably never. But after Saban and Meyer there really is a huge dropoff in college football in general.
I dont mind the Hoke criticism...I think Michigan should expect more than just a "Michigan Man." but you need to stop rewriting the history on RR...it's just not true.
November 27th, 2013 at 11:32 PM ^
November 28th, 2013 at 8:10 AM ^
once the request to put money on the line was made, crickets in response.
November 28th, 2013 at 8:37 AM ^
I'll bet dollar to donuts. donuts are the only true form of currrency to me.
November 28th, 2013 at 10:36 AM ^
November 28th, 2013 at 11:58 AM ^
Exactly. He is gone and we will never know how he would've done with a few more years. All we can do is hope we get a innovative OC next year and support this staff and these players they are bringing in. We haven't had recruiting classes like this in a while. Under RR we were lucky to have a top 25 class and now we are around the top ten. I can't wait to see these young guys gain some experience and represent the Hoke era to the fullest.
November 28th, 2013 at 5:22 PM ^
Look at the timeline:
Martin commits
Carr retires
Martin formally withdraws commitment and reopens his recruiting, ND and MSU, among others pursue him heavily
Rodriguez is hired begins to recruit Martin
Martin commits to Michigan and Rodriguez.
November 27th, 2013 at 9:28 PM ^
Calling Brandon a "baffoon" for firing a guy who assembled two of the worst teams in Michigan history causes me to question your sanity. In no way can you defend Rodriguez' performance here. He was God awful. His defenses and kicking games were atrocious and his offense was consistently shut down by MSU and OSU.
Criticize Borges all you want. But defending RichRod cannot be done. He did a poor job here.
Hoke's WORST record is the best record RR achieved here.
You oddly list all of RR's leftovers who contribured, but say nothing of those recruited by Carr. Martin, Minor, Hemingway, Koger, Matthews, Taylor,Warren, Ryan Van Bergan, Woolfolk, Morgan Trent, Stephen Schilling, Mouton, Mesko....Carr did NOT leave the cupboard bare.
November 28th, 2013 at 2:01 AM ^
rich rod was complete and utter shit. purple whatever is delusional
November 28th, 2013 at 10:16 AM ^
Everyone gives Rich Rod credit for having an awesome offense. But any decent team completely shut us down. Borges showed us against Indiana that even the worst offense can put up crazy numbers against a horrible defense.
November 28th, 2013 at 1:46 PM ^
Now shit teams shut us down. That's better how?
November 28th, 2013 at 11:15 AM ^
RR didn't assemble the two worst teamsin UM history, that was LC. All this damn fighting. If you want to fight and yell, so be it, just fight fair for shit sake. RR assembled an 11-2 team He didn't have the good fortune to coach it, but he assembled it.
If you eliminate that first year and chalk it up to the fiasco it was and re[place it with that 11-2 record things look a little different. Now I'm not saying BH doesn't deserve credit for the 11-2 season as well, he does, just like LC deserves the blame for what was "assembled" when RR got here.
Let's just stop the damn fighting already!
November 27th, 2013 at 9:42 PM ^
2011 had little to do with RR and everything to do with a miracle defensive turnaround.
November 28th, 2013 at 5:07 AM ^
November 27th, 2013 at 9:56 PM ^
November 27th, 2013 at 10:24 PM ^
I think Brandon is dumb for firing Rich Rodriguez and is incorrect when he claims he didn't recruit enough talent (especially before DB started telling recruits he wasn't sure who next year's coach would be). I could be wrong. Time will tell. Maybe we'll be back in a BCS bowl next year, or maybe we'll just keep lowering expectations and casting blame. Maybe Arizona won't continue to be as good or better than Michigan. But I think 11-2 is going to be a high water mark for Hoke and Co.
I'm angry at Brandon for actively sabotaging recruiting for an entire season (by not either firing Rodriguez or supporting him, but instead telling recruits he didn't know if the guy would be around) and now using that as an excuse to give even more rope to Coach Hoke, while simultaneously bitching about how bad it would be for people not even associated with the program to feed rumors that a Michigan coach might get fired. How is this hard to understand? Dave Brandon is being a douche to fans for doing exactly what he did as athletic director three years ago (where he had a tad more influence than a few message board posters).
You're last paragraph sums up the whole problem with our fanbase and program. We couldn't handle being bad in 2008 and needed somebody to blame. Unless the new guy fixed it better than before immediately he needed to go. Instead of just seeing what might happen in year 4, we panicked and are currently beginning to suffer the consequences, after a brief period of patting ourselves on the back that Dave Brandon seems to still be stuck in.
November 27th, 2013 at 11:00 PM ^
November 27th, 2013 at 11:12 PM ^
Other than my whimsical new signature suggesting Dave Brandon be terminated, I haven't demanded any change. I haven't even once said Al Borges should be let go, unlike 90+ percent of posters here. I've said over and over again that Brady Hoke should get five years with the full support of the athletic department and zero interference (something I think Dave Brandon could have done without being a dickhead). I just think we've made two big mistakes and are going to suffer for it. I might be wrong, but the more evidence that comes in the more confident I am in my conclusion. I've been bullish on the future of Michigan football for 5+ years. Seeing the writing on the wall now doesn't make me a fatalist all of a sudden.
I'm resigned to the fact that I don't possess a time machine. If you and others are happy with the course we're one, more power to you. You got what you wanted and we'll see how that goes. I really hope it works out, for all of us.
November 27th, 2013 at 11:31 PM ^
November 27th, 2013 at 11:39 PM ^
correct. Pot-Kettle.
November 28th, 2013 at 12:02 AM ^
I am not basing my opinion on anything other than the things that are under Hoke's control (on-field impact of his recruits) in comparison with other elite coaches. Because that is the standard I think the program should aspire to. It should have been the standard in RR's fourth year, and it should be the standard for Hoke next year and beyond. If you don't see a difference between having doubts and explaining why versus demanding a coach be fired and then claiming he never would have had any success here (when the team he was building is very successful a year later), I'm sorry. I do. I wish Rich Rodriguez had gotten some fairly meaningless support from people who didn't think he would be successful. I remember a lot more "this is never going to work" than "let's see, but I doubt it".
If you really think we'll be a 2-loss or better team next year, that's great. I don't at this point. At that point, we're talking about what Brady Hoke has built. If it ain't as good as guys like Meyer/Spurrier/Saban/Carroll/Harbaugh/Kelly/Richt/Stoops/Brown etc., then I don't see much cause for enthusiasm. We'll know soon enough, so either way my negativity shouldn't be program crippling in the long term.
November 27th, 2013 at 10:16 PM ^
November 27th, 2013 at 11:00 PM ^
My sentiments exactly. Brandon is trying to rewrite history to justify his firing of RR and hiring of Brady Hoke. RR was a truly innovative coach whose spread offense rivals the changes brought to football by Fielding H. Yost and Fritz Crisler. RR was immediately crucified and vilified by LC supporters for no good reason. Prior to joining UofM, Hoke was a 0.500 HC whose track record paled in comparison to RR's. Despite having everyone support him from the get go, he has really accomplished very little. Two good recruiting classes, bringing in Mattison, and a lucky 11-2 season with another coaches players are plusses, but certainly not nearly enough to justify the lofty praise and vote of confidence received from Brandon. 2013 has been an offensive debacle. I still say they fired the wrong guy and hired the wrong person.
November 27th, 2013 at 11:07 PM ^
Hoke was a .500 coach,.... OK, but RR was a fucking below .500 coach at the very job in question....Michigan! I didn't like the Hoke hire and I am one of the most critical on here about his lack of football IQ and apparent limitations.
But please stop rewriting the RR history. RR was an unmitigated failure at Michigan. 4th year would not have changed anything...that defense was a fucking nightmare. The tenure was a complete and utter epic fail.
November 28th, 2013 at 5:15 AM ^
November 28th, 2013 at 10:36 AM ^
November 28th, 2013 at 12:00 PM ^
I'm going to agree with dude above me. You're absolutely cherry picking here, and providing zero context for the records given. Rosters matter, depth matters, recruiting matters (point Hoke). Rodriguez inherited a shitty roster, that's a fact. He was making progress, that's also a fact. His defenses sucked, also fact, but the context here is that we were playing a shit ton of freshman. Hoke now finds himself in the same situation, but on the other side of the ball, though with only one position group instead of 3-4. Just be honest about it, don't try to distort reality.
I don't understand people sometimes. Why do people feel the need to bend reality to conform to their preconceived ideals? That's an honest question...
November 29th, 2013 at 11:05 AM ^
I often find myself on the opposite side of the debate as you, TIMMMAAY but I always appreciate the fact that with you, it always feels like a debate and not an arguement. I also enjoy reading purplestuff's view as he is very good at conveying his point without attacking other posters.
There are always two side to a debate and I love having them, but it bothers me to no end when people distort things to fit their side of the debate. Especially with what has been discussed here over the past month, there is plenty of ammunition for boths sides without making things up or distorting the truth. I wish we could all just discuss (debate) things civilly and dispense with all the hostility and fabrication.
November 28th, 2013 at 1:53 AM ^
your boi dick rod sucked at recruiting. that's a fact jack.