Controversial calls

Submitted by 615Wolverine on September 2nd, 2012 at 12:38 AM
First INT Bamas CB threw our WR out and there was no flag. Gardners play where he was interfered and they waived off pass interference was bs. Interfering with the punter was also bs. That face mask of Rawls early in the first half was not called. Countess play where he got hurt was the same exact play where Floyd hit a Bama player and was called for a block in the back. Yet Countess play there was no flag??? Bamas a good team but if we had gotten couple these calls it would been a differant story.

Comments

Michigan_Mike

September 2nd, 2012 at 12:10 PM ^

How about you check out the defensive holding rule while you are at it?

Rule 9 covers "Conduct of Players and Others Subject to the Rules." Section 3 covers "Blocking, Use of Hands or Arms" and Section 4 is directed at defensive players. Section 3, Article 4 of Rule 9 states that a "defensive player may use hands and arms to push, pull, ward off or lift offensive players when attempting to reach the runner." But they may not use hands and arms to tackle, hold or otherwise illegally obstruct an opponent other than a ball carrier. This is, by definition, defensive holding and carries a 10-yard penalty that is awarded to the offense as well as an automatic first down.

So are you making the case that Roy Roundtree was not obstructed?

Swayze Howell Sheen

September 2nd, 2012 at 2:51 PM ^

You guys are missing the key piece of the rule (9-3-4-c):

 

"Defensive players may ward off or legally block an eligible pass receiver until that player 
occupies the same yard line as the defender or until the opponent could not 
possibly block him. Continuous contact is illegal" (emphasis mine)
 
Was Roundtree at the same yard line as the defender? If so, it is illegal. I can't watch the play again, but my sense was that they were even, and hence the ref missed the call.
 
 
 

Space Coyote

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:10 PM ^

But to make it clear, that rule applies to an eligible pass receiver attempting to "obviously block" the defender. It has to do with run plays pretty much, and not with pass plays or pass interference. It is basically setting up defensive holding on run downs, saying that the defender can't illegally impede the offensive player so that other defenders can tackle him.

Space Coyote

September 2nd, 2012 at 1:42 AM ^

It's the same for a 5 yard rule or no rule at all, you can't just shove somebody down every play because you tend to get out of position if you miss. It's not like the CB destroyed Roundtree, Roundtree was off balance when the corner pushed him and he fell out of bounds. It's a perfectly legal play.

And no, they can't simply tackle them because that's defensive holding. But theoretically you could jam a WR anywhere on the field. Of course, you would be risking that the other team throws a quick pass and then it's PI.

BlueTimesTwo

September 2nd, 2012 at 1:58 AM ^

I don't buy that interpretation.  So you are telling me that any time a player runs a crossing route that a LB can just knock the ever-living-crap out of him as long as the ball is not in the air?  If so, why don't we see that more often?  Even if you were to occasionally get called because the ball got thrown early, it would still create an incentive to head-hunt in the middle and would probably take away a lot of those throws from the game.

Space Coyote

September 2nd, 2012 at 2:05 AM ^

Because you can't "charge" a player after they are more than one yard past the line of scrimmage, so that means you can't level the guy. It is an exception to the rule. You can run with them and shove them and push them all you want, but you can't "charge" them.

That would also be a penelty for hitting an unprotected player. So you're looking at giving up 15 yards when you do that.

What the corner did to Roundtree was neither of those things. It was a clean push in which Roundtree was in the middle of his stride and lost his balance, thus falling down out of bounds.

Space Coyote

September 2nd, 2012 at 2:32 PM ^

I've been waiting around for years for Michigan to play Bama again so that I could troll mgoblog. Watch the tape! The cornerback shoves Roundtree with one arm!

Now you still can't see from this angle if the ball was thrown or not (I can't find the endzone angle they showed at one point), but if Denard still has the ball this is no penalty.

 

Swayze Howell Sheen

September 2nd, 2012 at 2:55 PM ^

I believe you are wrong.

 

Defensive players may ward off or legally block an eligible pass receiver until that player occupies the same yard line as the defender or until the opponent could not possibly block him. Continuous contact is illegal.
 
(from 9-3-4-c in the rule book)
 
The video CLEARLY shows the player (Roundtree) occupying the same yard line (or even beyond!) as compared to the defender. This play should have been flagged.
 
 

bluesalt

September 2nd, 2012 at 10:18 AM ^

I'm not sure you're correct about the pass not being in the air.  I never saw a replay that was definitive one way or the other.  Live, Denard threw it to where there was no receiver within 15 yards.  On the replay, we see Roundtree getting knocked out of bounds, but never a synched up replay to see whether or not the ball was in the air.  It is possible the refs missed this call (they missed many others.)  It is possible that Denard didn't see Roundtree get knocked down (wouldn't be the first time he's misread something.)  But I don't think there was evidence to make a declaration on either side of that argument.

Also, now learning this rule (thanks!) and the lack of the illegal contact rule makes me understand why we want DG as a receiver, and why Hoke is recruiting a bunch of strong, 6'3+ receivers.

troublet1969

September 2nd, 2012 at 1:15 AM ^

It was a terrible no-call to take it further.  It just so happens that everybody that understands that we still would have gotten our lunch money taken and our milkshake drank are right too.  Go Blue fellas, the team will get better from this.   Even Hoke has seen were we need to get to after that one...

DefenseWins

September 2nd, 2012 at 1:35 AM ^

The refs clearly didn't make a difference in getting our ass handed to us.

But the kick catch interference was absolutely hilarious. The return man was running forward! What is our guy supposed to do? Run away from him? I laughed when they tried to explain that one.

And Lewan getting called for a hold while a facemask penalty that a blind person could see was funny too.

Again, to reiterate for what seems like the umpteenth time, the refs had nothing to do with the result (has to be said).

UMFoster

September 2nd, 2012 at 1:43 AM ^

If all of those calls we're switched around we still lose. Maybe not as bad, but the story would still be similar. You can only worry about the things you can control; you can't control the calls, its a part of the game.

clarkiefromcanada

September 2nd, 2012 at 1:50 AM ^

Are you really asking: "could the refereeing have been better?"

If so, then the answer would be an emphatic yes.

But who expects anything much from a B12 crew in a predominantly SEC environment?

BlueTimesTwo

September 2nd, 2012 at 1:50 AM ^

The piss-poor officiating might have changed the margin of Alabama's victory, but not the outcome of the game.  At the same time, shitty officiating can lead to injuries and dangerous plays.  Alabama's players made a number of blind-side helmet-to-helmet hits that our guys were lucky to get up from.  Refs should be clamping down on that shit for the safety of the players whether or not it affects the outcome of the game.

not TOM BRADY

September 2nd, 2012 at 1:53 AM ^

Bama is obviously better. But a couple of these calls could have gone are way. If they did it would have been a closer game. But none of it was the reason we lost. We lost because we got manhandled. Needed to stop the run. 10 yards a carry for Yeldob is ridicules.

gobluednicks1

September 2nd, 2012 at 2:59 AM ^

i'm going to have to throw a flag because you are

a) a total dipshit

or

b) 5 years old

first of all it's not "are" it's "our"...you fucking dumbass...

second, it's not ridicules, it's ridiculous.  stupid people "our" annoying.  my god, get an edumucation or just do us all a favor and kill yourself.

NoMoPincherBug

September 2nd, 2012 at 2:22 AM ^

Bama was more talented, better coached, more experienced, stronger, more physical, faster, and they excuted far better on both sides of the ball.

The refs had nothing to do with any of that.

cp4three2

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:18 AM ^

Whining about non-calls in a game that we were physically dominated is silly. These no calls wouldnt have madeva difference. Alabama stopped running their full offense after the first quarter and after they went up 31 they pretty much stopped running playaction. Saban could have beaten us by 60 had he wanted to. The refs had nothing to do with it.

If you want Michigan to upset better teams by having a better scheme become a basketball fan. Beilein will play a better team close, Hoke won't. Hoke is going to recruit well and beat teams he can physically dominate. He will have clse games with even coaching and talent, like ND, Va tech, Iowa, and be crushed by teams with better coaching schemes and players like this one, just like Lloyd was. This isnt a knock, it is what it is, most guys can't do that and he can. He's not elite and we knew that.

Brady isnt going to win games like tonight without superior talent, ahain, just like Lloyd. Lloyd's career was made by two players, Woodson and Brady. Both of those guy might be the best ever at their position and if not are hall of famers. Hoke can recruit, hopefully he finds those guys for him. He will win 8 or 9 a year, which is what the fan base wants.

WMUgoblue

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:38 AM ^

Comparing Beilein to Hoke is apples to oranges. Upsets in terms of talent are far more frequent in basketball than in football, 1 player can get hot and carry a team the entire game, to make that comparison is straight lunacy. A truly sombering thought that some people only view Hoke as a 8-9 win coach when he took a team to 11 wins in just 9 months as the head coach....step away from the edge folks.

michfan6060

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:26 AM ^

Sure there were a couple questionable calls, but if they were different I'm pretty sure Bama would have still been trying late in the game instead of taking their foot off of the pedal. Either way we were getting spanked. The game was embarrassing enough don't make a pussy thread like this.

energyblue1

September 2nd, 2012 at 3:32 AM ^

No, this game was lost regardless so let me say.....

1  Dirty hits were a joke...  2 steps from denard and dude lays him out...that's roughing the passer not called.

2  Lewan was hit after the play was over from behind on the play he got hurt on....yeah, that's efffing low and dirty..............

3  Helmet to Helmet........ saw 3 of those that didn't get called....uhmm crable-smith anyone...

4  Lbers cannot jack a wr in route, that is a penalty and is included in the defenseless player, and yes at the beginning of the game one of the bama lbers jacked one of our wr's.....right infront of the middle ref behind the lbers...  

5  Holding call on Lewan when Facemask was against bama joke...

6  Facemask by Barrett Jones, I wanna say on bigwill, nearly took his head off not called, most missed this but I know our staff will see it in tape.......

7   Lots of after the play action by the bama oline...........now some of it's football, but some of it is just low dirty play..........

 

there was more but I don't care to get into it..........Bama was the better team but the refs do need to make calls that are there, and know jacking a player helmet to helmet isn't just playing football, not when you are emphasizing protecting the players. 

jonnyknox

September 2nd, 2012 at 8:06 AM ^

There were a couple of penalties that were questionable but every game has those.  Michigan lost because they were not nearly as good as Alabama accept it and beat Air Force.

Alumnus93

September 2nd, 2012 at 9:01 AM ^

Did anyone else see the clip on one of our punts in the 1st qtr ?  Our man at the bottom of the screen got drilled in the back,  and the announcers said nothing... they kept playing the replay over of the return, and yet nothing.... maybe because Herbstriet was too busy with Musburgers dick in his mouth.   And it was as if those two were watching another game.

reshp1

September 2nd, 2012 at 9:32 AM ^

The only one I had a problem with was the flag they picked up on the block on Demens. Dude was clearly leading with his helmet on a defenseless player. With all the focus on concussions how do you not call a clear helmet to helmet? It's not like they didn't see it because they the the flag initially.

Tater

September 2nd, 2012 at 9:52 AM ^

While it would have been great if the officiating hadn't been so one-sided, especially where personal fouls were concerned, it wouldn't have made much difference.  Alabama was bigger and faster than Michigan at almost every position.  That is going to happen to a lot of teams who play Alabama this year. 

Michigan lost to an NFL farm team that was created by gaming the system and cheating.  No disgrace there.

ChalmersE

September 2nd, 2012 at 10:16 AM ^

whine about the Countess injury.  In my mind, that had a lot more impact on the game than the refs.  As soon as he went down, they started picking on Avery.  We knew that our D-Line was going to have trouble with the run.  We thought our secondary would be very good.  Without Countess, our secondary is going to look a lot more like 2010 than 2011.

TRUEwolverine

September 2nd, 2012 at 10:59 AM ^

They were the better team. Enough with this ref BS. Were there some missed/bad calls? Of course. Did they effect the outcome of the game? No. Teams never play a perfect game and refs never call a perfect game. That's the way it is.

Huttybubba1

September 2nd, 2012 at 11:03 AM ^

Maybe Roundtree should show some heart and not get man handled play after play. Let just face the facts we were out played out coached and Alabama was way more physical than us, and when play the way they play they will get most of the calls. We need to get tougher!

andrewG

September 2nd, 2012 at 11:18 AM ^

I'm curious why intentional grounding wasn't called McCarron a couple times in the first half. Not that it would have changed the outcome of the game or anything, but twice he threw it into the stands from well within the tackle box while getting pressured.

BuckThaF_ckeyes

September 2nd, 2012 at 12:37 PM ^

All this whining about the refs is crazy. There was some blatently bad calls, but we would have still lost by 2-3 touchdowns had they made the correct calls. We need to take this beatdown, learn from it, and better ourselves moving forward. Blame Bill Martin for scheduling this disaster, Rich Rod for putting the program back 5 years, and even Fitz and Clark for screwing their teammates with the bad personal decisions they made. The goal as far as I thought for the season heading in was to win the Big10, and we are still undefeated in Big10 play. Move on and quit the nonsense whining.

M-Dog

September 2nd, 2012 at 12:55 PM ^

People who post threads like "I'm not saying that we would have won, but the referees were terrible" are actually trying to say "We would have won if the referees were not terrible".

No.  We would not have won.  Or even been close.

 

 

uofmfan_13

September 2nd, 2012 at 1:19 PM ^

No, there is NOTHING wrong with pointing out the obvious - the refs blew open the game with terrible, travesty non-calls.

We needed the perfect game to win or have a chance - everyone agrees on that.  And you know what?  We still had a small, 10% probability of being in the contest until the refs DID NOT CALL a face mask on Alabama and consequently put Denard in a 3rd and 20 - a bad circumstance that led to an interception.

I am sick of people on here saying "don't whine" and "we wouldn't have won anyway" and so on... you know what?  Dirty Saban and his football factory have NO STANDARDS so we dang well should fight for every thing that puts UM in an even more unfair circumstance.  It isn't whining to point out an obvious non-call that led to an INT and another HUGE swing in momentum to Alabama.

Stop whining about "not whining" and let's be united on this fact - a terrible, non-call changed the course of the game, for the worst, for UM.  We needed a perfect game and the refs ensured that did not happen.  They share some blame for this and the NCAA should look into why that didn't happen in their "kickoff classic". 

noahtahl

September 3rd, 2012 at 6:17 PM ^

the play with roundtree has been discussed and debated by over 200 people without one person mentioning the fact that the push was to the face and only the face. Penalty call missed.