CC: A thread for people who still support RR
Comrades,
We may be in the extreme minority now, but I think there should be at least one thread on this board for people who believe in the spread offense and believe in what RR is building here. Let Harbaugh go to the NFL, and have DB force RR to fire the entire defensive staff, including his cherished colleagues from the WVU days. Our offense is still improving, and our defense can only get better.
If Harbaugh does indeed go to the NFL -- which is at least a possibility at this point -- the likely outcome is that DB keeps RR. Let's make sure that RR knows that we're behind him and are rooting for his success.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:42 AM ^
You are the only person around here making any sense. I just think it is too late. It is like this cloud of anger and stupudity is going to be too much for DB to not make a change.
It's funny, at the start of the season (after T-Wolf went down) everyone said 7-5 was good enough to keep RR on... Now? I guess that was all just bullshit.
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:06 PM ^
that you and i are on the same page on a topic? this alone should show the lulzRRlulz'ers that they need to take it down a notch.
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:23 PM ^
Add me to the mix and we've got one heck of a disfunctional family!
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:48 PM ^
who's the anecdotal baby who drops one-liners that seem out of character and certainly outside of his or her intellectual capacity? the guy with the golfer avatar?
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:12 PM ^
You are also making sense and so are a number of others. The most frustrating thing is hearing people say "I think he can still win national titles if he stays but I just don't think it is possible to keep him any more."
WTF does that mean? Peer pressure from obnoxious, uninformed fans should carry more weight than whether or not this is the best man for the job? I seriously feel like we fell down a fucking rabbit hole after the Penn State game where realistic expectations based on the players/roster we currently have been thrown out the window completely. Instead the common assumption seems to be that a team that improved from a year ago, discovered some very talented young players (Denard, Demens, Lewan, Gordon, Avery, etc.), and returns 18+ starters next year is completely doomed because we lost to a couple teams that were just better than we were (I mean, it isn't like we lost to a 5-7 Wake Forest team in year three since only awesome coaches do that).
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:21 AM ^
Checking in.
My arguements:
1) Every coach should get 4 years, on principle. Anything less sets a bad precedent.
2) Despite the downer of an ending, this year's team did show improvement. The offense, specifically, has shown improvement on just about every level. We've gone from 3 to 5 to 7 wins.
3) The team is VERY young and will improve next year by virtue of age/experience alone. The youth is what caused turnovers on offense and confusion on defense. Vince Lombardi himself could not have turned this defense into a cohesive unit.
4) Special teams can turn around quickly.
5) The Big Ten, specifically Iowa and Mich St, should be worse next year. We will have a good shot at making the conference championship game.
6) It's just ONE MORE YEAR. If Harbaugh isn't available, there are no other standout candidates. No one is gonna convince me that 1st year Hoke is better than 4th year RichRod. The spread works (see Auburn, Oregon, et al) - just give it a little more time.
I think a lot of our fans are emotional right now and want RichRod fired as "punishment" for the shit we've been through over the past three years. Hopefully, David Brandon realizes that this is not a good reason to make an extremely important business decision. If it's not Harbaugh, it should be RichRod.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:53 AM ^
5) The Big Ten, specifically Iowa and Mich St, should be worse next year. We will have a good shot at making the conference championship game.
Don't you think it's just a little sad that we are relying on teams (MSU for crying out loud!) to be worse next year so that we have a good shot at the championship game? Other conference teams being down next is an excuse for winning just as bare cupboards/transfers/youth are for losing. You're either good or you're not.
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:02 PM ^
2 out of every 3 against MSU wasn't because we were going up against the potential B1G champs every year. We were beating a mediocre MSU most years. When was the last time MSU had a sniff at 11-1 and co-championship?
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:11 PM ^
That's a good point. MSU is traditionally mediocre. However, I would argue that 11-1 doesn't accurately reflect the quality of the MSU team this year. I think they are much closer to mediocre than co-champions this year. Their record is inflated due to their easy schedule, which included UM.
January 3rd, 2011 at 3:13 PM ^
given its bowl performance. that was some humble pie on Saturday.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:21 AM ^
If DB has someone that he thinks clearly puts us in a better position, then he makes the change. But taking a flyer on a smaller program coach or someone's OC/DC, you can do that next year.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:23 AM ^
and I'd like to sign your petition, sir.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:25 AM ^
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:32 AM ^
It seems to work pretty well for Oregon, Auburn, TCU, Florida, etc. in all types of games.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:34 AM ^
It also worked well enough to beat 3 Big Ten teams this year in conference.
Seems to work well enough for Oregon to beat JH and Stanford, and for Auburn to beat Saban and Miles......
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:26 AM ^
of Harbaugh or RRod right now I'd take Harbaugh. If that isn't the case though I still think RRod can succeed if he lays waste to the defensive staff as mentioned - brings in a known quantity with Michigan ties and let's that guy just do whatever he wants to the defense. Throw him "SEC Money" to convince him to come for what might only be a year.
Recruiting needs to go full throttle back at Hart and get him on board - let the new DC take all the remaining schollies and just go full force towards various D recruits and sell sell sell the program. Sell the opportunity to play alongside Denard who will be a Heisman favorite and get hype all year long.
To those that say this offense can't work - I still think it can - but it needs to have a defense that can make stops in case it sputters. (really? shocking)
Hoke isn't the answer. Pinkel isn't the answer. Pederson...maybe. Patterson...maybe.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:29 AM ^
I support the team and whoever is coaching them. 3 years is not enough time, when you step into a good situation, which RR did not. It takes time to build a program no matter who you are. What happens if Harbaugh comes in and cant build in 3 years, is he out to? 4 years minimum. I don't want to be Notre Dame.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:33 AM ^
No worse than what Saban stepped into at Bama or Tressel at Ohio State. The program went 9-4 the year before with a win over God and the Gators.
<br>
<br>There was more then enough talent defensively to win 8 games if they had competent coaching. The offense should have been adjusted to fit the available talent--something which most good coaches do.
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:17 PM ^
What available talent are you speaking of? The Freshamn QB or the walk-on QB? The offensive line that wouldn't be fit to start for Pioneer HS? the 1 wide receiver with ANY game experience? The running backs who combined spent more time on the sidelines injured than on the field healthy?
That sounds like one hell of an offense in the making. While you're entitled to your epinion wrt the coaching situation, don't for one second tell me there was enough talent to win 8 games. That is being disingenuine and horribly distorting the truth.
Your glib and flippant remarks to anyone who disagrees with you (with actual, you know, facts to back up their opinion), are off-putting.
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:28 PM ^
So you're bickering over one win? All of hate you've spewed over the past 5 weeks boils down to Rodriguez not winning one more game? That is probably the funniest thing I've read in any of these "CC" threads. Talk about losing credibility (if you hadn't lost it long ago).
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:58 PM ^
that was the worst Oline and set of QBs i have ever seen here at UM and i've had season tix for nearly 30 years. that O wouldn't score no matter the scheme. much like our current D wouldnt be able to stop anyone no matter the scheme.
January 3rd, 2011 at 7:08 PM ^
Wow Salvatore, if you think RR had anywhere near the depth or talent of the teams that Saban or Tressel had when they took over their teams, you must be on something. Tressel and Saban walked into the best situations that anyone can ask for. Several of the players that helped Alabama win the national championship were recruited by Shula. Tressel didn't exactly take over for a bad program. Cooper had plenty of talent, some could even say more talent than Tressel ever recruited. So taking over for Cooper was a walk in the park.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:30 AM ^
I still believe in him.
The facts about the youth of the defense haven't changed all year, except for the worse. The offense was pretty good and everyone is returning.
As Bo said, it takes 4 years to build a program. Give the man a shot to coach a team with some of his recruits as upperclassmen.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:31 AM ^
Bo would have given him at least four years. In today's climate, I would like to see five. That gives any coach a senior class that he recruited and a few redshirt seniors from the previous coach and his late additions to the outgoing coach's class.
I really, really hope Harbaugh takes a $5 million a year NFL job. Denver and SF are a couple of pretty nice places to live, and one good five-year contract would allow him to retire if he wanted to and never "work" again if he doesn't want to. Anyone who communicates as well as he does would be a natural in the booth, so I could easily see that happening after a stint in the NFL.
Anyway, I do really like Harbaugh, and wish him well either way. I would just rather see what RR can do at Michigan with enough time to do his job right, and not have to go through two more years of rebuilding.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:32 AM ^
And looking forward to what is hopefully not the final installment of the Denard stats almanack.
Keep on keeping on.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:49 AM ^
My plan is to put it out after the MNC game, so all the competitors' statistics are in there as well.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:33 AM ^
the consensus was 7-5 plus a bowl game was progress. Turns out we can't live with that goal now having lived through the season. It was more painful than we were willing to admit then.
The consensus at the beginning of the year was that it is unfair not to give a coach 4 years so his players can mature and he can be evaluated on his own team. Turns out we no longer care if it is fair or not. Most of us can no longer wait.
If Brandon retains RR, I will support a 4th year. In the end, I do not want to revert to B1G football just to be the best in B1G if it means getting crushed outside the conference. That is why I was ready for a change, and I will stand to see it through. But if RR is replaced, I want to move the playbook into the future, not the past.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:42 AM ^
Agree that was the general consensus at the beginning of the year. However, I think most people thought/hoped that some of those 5 losses would be competitive for 60 minutes. Instead, in all 6 losses Michigan found themselves trailing at some point by 20+ points (and in a lot of those 6 losses Michigan was down 20 points in the first half).
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:46 AM ^
the consensus was 7-5 plus a bowl game was progress.
Wouldn't you have to say that the '7-5, bowl game' consensus included a win over Sparty? Maybe I'm in the minority here, but, I stated that RR needed to go 6-6 at a minimum with a win over MSU (at home, no less) to be retained. 7 wins, but an MSU victory unfortunately wouldn't hold up.
Of course, I didn't expect Tate to be 2nd/3rd string, the DRob experience, the kicking/special teams to be probably the worst I've even seen, or a win over UCONN.
I did expect, however, that the defense would be bad...horrifyingly bad...even before the Woolfolk injury.
Argh. This situation sucks. Thanks for listening. :-)
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:12 PM ^
I do know how you feel.
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:03 PM ^
No one expected all of the losses to be blowouts. I think that's what hurts the most.
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:30 PM ^
Honestly, the blowouts didn't hurt me as much as the 5-0 start and the increased expectations I had going into the B1G seson. I came in thinking 7-5 and then the fast start and Denard's dilithium-ness raised my expectations against my better judgment. That's what hurts the most. Luckily, I readjusted before the bowl game so this blowout didn't hurt as badly.
January 3rd, 2011 at 1:49 PM ^
For both Iowa and PSU, late in the 4th Qtr, we had to make one stop on D, and then we would have had the ball to tie the game. I know we were way behind earlier in the games, but unless you want to say we won the Miss State game b/c we were up at the end of the 1st qtr, games are 60 minutes long. 10 point losses are not blowouts.
I would even argue MSU is not a blowout, but somewhere in between a close game and a blow out.
A blowout is OSU or, to bring a non-UM example, Alabama-MSU. Alabama was up early, up late, and it was never a game.
I understand it's frustrating/depressing we were down ~3 TDs at some point in all our losses, but some of the games were closer and could have turned on 1 or 2 plays, i.e., not blowouts.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:33 AM ^
I don't want to become the next Notre Dame. For that reason alone, I am willing to give a coach who has shown improvement each of his three years an extra year. With continued improvement on D, Special Teams, and yes, O, there is a conceivable path to 10 wins within 2 years.
Without a clear path to 10 wins with someone else, I don't see what's the rush to fire him.
I totally understand the other opinion, I just happen to stick to my guns from the beginning of the year: 7 or 8 wins.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:38 AM ^
Unfortunately, I don't think there's been continued improvement on defense. If anything, the defense has trended the other way - gotten worse each year.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:34 AM ^
I'm still here.
Unfortunately in college football how good of a coach your are isn't always the most important thing. Some misfortune has helped spwan a lot of negativity for RichRod, and ultimately that negativity makes it nearly impossible for him to continue on here, if only because as national perception turns against him, so will recruits.
I have no doubt RR will land on his feet somewhere else and do an excellent job.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:35 AM ^
I still support RR, but at this point, I would understand a switch if it was to JH. Leaving Casteel was a learning experience for RR, and the position of head coach at M isn't a great place for learning. I feel like this could have worked out very well under different circumstrances, but I'm no longer sure that it isn't too late, because he really needs an instant and significant improvement on defense. Whatever happens, I'll always support both M football, and RR wherever he is coaching.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:35 AM ^
I would prefer to see Rich Rodriguez stay.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:36 AM ^
Every coach deserves to graduate a class from freshman to senior. I know that's not the landscape in college football, I know people want instant gratification, but I just can't bring myself to be like everybody else.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:36 AM ^
The problem with DB forcing the firing of the entire defensive staff is that it would essentially make DB the head coach. RR is the CEO of the football program and has to pay the price for the decisions he's made. It's a shame that it has come to this, but he's already had two chances at picking defensive coaches. Why should DB or anyone else believe he'd get it right this time?
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:37 AM ^
the trend shows it. Is that good enough? Just a reminder, we are the youngest team in the Big-10. I support whoever the coach is currently or may be in the future. Hail, Hail ...
PS. Go look up Frank Beamer's record his first six years, bet VT is glad they held out.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:42 AM ^
The only difference this year from '09 were the Purdue and Illinois games. Purdue rotates off and UM goes to Illinois. They add Northwestern and Nebraska.
<br>
<br>The trend also shows the defense will remain awful as will the special teams. They have as of yet defeated a upper tier
<br>Big Ten team. 52-14 versus MissState does not augur well for future success.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
January 3rd, 2011 at 12:30 PM ^
Just for fun...
1. Instead of beating a 6-6 ND team at home, we beat an 8-5 ND team on the road (when they were still at full strength health wise) that throttled Miami in its bowl game.
2. Instead of getting blown out by a 3-9 Illinois team, we beat a 7-6 Illinois team that throttled Baylor in its bowl game.
3. The 6-6 MSU team we took to OT in 2009 won 11 games in 2010.
4. Out of conference, 8-5 ND on the road > 6-6 ND at home, Big East Champs UCONN > 5-7 Western Michigan, Bowling Green > 0-12 EMU, UMASS > Delaware State
5. 5-7 Indiana on the road > 4-8 Indiana at home
6. 4-8 Purdue on the road = 5-7 Purdue at home (especially when the only difference is the result of the Michigan game
7. 11-1 OSU on the road > 11-2 OSU at home
8. Big Ten Champs Wisconsin > Champs Sports Bowl Champs Wisconsin
So yeah, the schedule was much more difficult pretty much across the board and Michigan still improved from 5 wins to 7.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:38 AM ^
Everybody says the offense is great. I am starting to doubt when I look back on the last two games. This bowl game should have been a shootout. Instead, we get shut out for 3 quarters. Really? Shut out for 3 quarters?
How is this an offense that's great? We all know the special teams and defense are among the worst ever, but the offense isn't even GREAT yet is it? At least not when it counts.
Is there something I'm not accounting for? Serious question.
If you think RR can get it done next year, not saying he can't, then you believe he can COMPLETELY turn around the defense and the special teams as well as show significant improvement on offense when it comes to the top tier defenses in the league. Quite a challenge...
January 3rd, 2011 at 1:13 PM ^
You cannot look at one aspect of anything and get a complete picture!
As far as the offense is concerned:
They are still quite young. The only skill players on the roster that are in their 4th year removed from high school are: Junior Hemingway, Martell Webb, and Kelvin Grady (who played basketball for 2 years)! Everyone else is either a true junior or younger.
They are much improved from 2009, and I don't want to think about the year before (after losing Long, Henne, Hart, Manningham, Arrington, etc.). Yes, they did not put up a ton of points in the last 3 games. However, you cannot simply look at points as the metric of an offenses effectiveness. Nor, am I saying, that you could simply look at yardage...or any other single metric. However, in a different situation, we could definitely have put up more points in the bowl game (or OSU or Wisconsin). We missed a field goal from the red zone. We got in to the red zone a couple other times...and being down had to go for big plays rather than running the offense, and eventually failed on 4th down. I agree with you that the offense is not GREAT yet, but they are clearly on their way.
Help from special teams and defense would be obviously helpful! Special teams is the easiest of the two to turn around. Rich has received a committment from a well regarded kicker (let's not forget that Gibbons was well regarded as well). Hagerup seems decent (save frustrating block) and was a true frosh. The defense is bad. Although I do see potential. All the freshmen that we are playing is semi-encouraging...
also, in my epinion, I thought they played pretty well in many games this year, including the bowl. You can yell at me all you want (52 POINTS OMG), but they really didn't play THAT terribly. They simply need to make a couple plays on 3rd down (and when they do make that play, make another one on 4th). With the exception of the 80some yard dump-off, I thought they played hard and decent. I see potential...
Now, go look at the schedule next year...
January 3rd, 2011 at 1:39 PM ^
is a sophomore and first year starter. The offense begins with him, and he and the receivers didn't perform well the last few games.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:38 AM ^
I can see why people feel the way they do on both sides of the fence. Both camps have good points.
I have the utmost respect for RR as a coach, person and so on. That being said, I think it is time for a change. The situation has become toxic, and will only get worse if RR is retained. I'm tired of the drama.
RR will land on his feet, and it will be a shame to lose him. But this whole experiment has been a complete failure -- a perfect storm if you will.
We need to reinstill a toughness to Michigan football. Prior to RR, I always thought Michigan had a chance againt any opponent it played. Now, I accept that we will get destroyed by better competition.
I had my doubts after Penn State, but was willing to give him a fourth year in order to play some of his kids as upper classmen. Saturday's game sealed it. Sorry. I really wanted him to succeed here, but like I said, I'm just tired of the drama.
These are truly sad times.
January 3rd, 2011 at 11:54 AM ^
I always thought Michigan had a chance againt any opponent it played. Now, I accept that we will get destroyed by better competition.
That's exactly the feeling I'm left with. The other feeling I'm left with? That our 7-5 was a lot like MSU's 11-1; kinda lucky. A couple bounces of the ball the other way, so to speak, and this could have been 5-7. (pre-bowl of course). I know you can always play the what if game, but can you really use that same logic to stretch this season to 8 or 9 wins? I can't...
Ugh......