Can I ask a question about our defensive philosophy?

Submitted by jbrandimore on
And how it relates to what seems to be frequent late game collapses under Don Brown. Please don’t get me wrong, I am glad Don Brown is here, and I much prefer an aggressive defense to our traditional bend and sometimes break under previous regimes. My question is this. Is it possible that playing this hyper aggressive style of defense is impossible to pull off for 60 minutes? Yesterday, I fully expected the Wisconsin defense to wear down in the second half as they were on the field a ton in the first half, and while our running game was not super productive, we were pounding on them in the trenches, and I expected them to soften in the second half. Instead, clearly our defense ran out of gas in the third quarter. I am trying to understand why this might be, which brought me to the question of whether the pace we set in the first halves of games simply isn’t sustainable. In boxing terms, are we punching ourselves out with this defensive style? By the way - this observation isn’t just yesterday. In many games in the Brown era, our defenses have wilted in the 4th quarters of games. I’m not suggesting we play less aggressively, just wondering if maybe more player rotation might help in other positions besides DL or maybe mixing in some zone looks to conserve some energy for 4th quarters. Thanks.

BigVig

November 19th, 2017 at 5:49 PM ^

There's no question that he is an excellent defensive coordinator and he gives us a chance to win every game, but our defense is also loaded - it has been since DJ Durkin was here.  Is there a reason why we have to bust spectacularly at least once a game and also have a drive where the opponent marches down the field with no resistance and it is chalked up to "Don Brown figuring them out".    While the season ended on a horrible note and I would rather have DB than DJD, even if just for OSU/Spread, remember when we had a crazy scoreless streak against UNLV, ranked BYU, Maryland, and ranked Northwestern.  Is there a reason why we need to give 14 points to Cincinnati and Rutgers, and 10 points to anyone else that shows up on our schedule?  The talent this year is just as strong as 2015.

trustBlue

November 19th, 2017 at 7:13 PM ^

Durkin ran more of a control and contain type offense designed to keep everything in front of the defense. That allowed fewer busts which produced shut outs against inferior teams, but also led to getting picked apart by better offenses (e.g. OSU).

Don Brown's defense is more aggressive and creates more sacks and TFLs. Its designed to keep offenses off schedule and force more third and longs. Durkin's defense was designed to minimize defensive mistakes - Brown's defense is designed to force the opposing offense into making mistakes of their own.

But aggressive defenses always come at a price. Blitzing more guys leaves less defenders in coverage. Leaving corners on an island allows you to bring more pressure, but also means that one mistake can turn into a big play. Don Brown's defense is going to win most drives, but luck and statistics means that you are going to get RPSed for a few here and there. This seems to come at the rate of 1-2 drives by the opposing offense per game. 

Even if it doesnt produces vanity metrics like shut outs, DBs defenses are capable of causing disruption and making plays on anybody - OSU, Alabama, anybody. It's a tradeoff that I'll take in a hearbeat. 

Squash34

November 19th, 2017 at 11:35 PM ^

Gary has been held one time all year if you go by the flags he has draw.
PFF has him as a top 5 rusher (as of a week ago) with a pressure rate of 50% of his passing down stats. So basically, he either gets a pressure or the opposing lineman is blocking him perfectly on passing situations.

jsquigg

November 19th, 2017 at 3:24 PM ^

The identity of the defense is aggressive.  It's a dick move to be hindsight guy.  Hornibrook made three inch perfect passes yesterday, and even those wouldn't have happened without some inept officiating keeping their drives alive, which at this point is predictable.  Could he have played basic zone on those third downs?  Yeah, but if someone finds a hole in a defense we don't typically play, then everyone is bitching about why we didn't blitz.  Unlike offense, defense is guessing more on the right call.  Don Brown rightfully prefers to play aggressively which can burn you sometimes.  He would also be the first to admit he probably should have made a different call on the third and longs.  Oh well.

bronxblue

November 19th, 2017 at 3:43 PM ^

I have not seen any evidence that a particular defensive style gets defenders more or less tired. Now, certain offenses can lock guys on the field and wear them out. But nothing about Brown's defense leads to then "wilting" in a game.

M-Dog

November 19th, 2017 at 3:48 PM ^

They are human.  When they keep seeing our offense go three and out with no hope of scoring, they understandably fade a little.  I don't care who you are, it's hard to give supreme effort every play when you know deep inside that it does not matter.

If Peters was still healthy in the 4th quarter and hitting on some drives, I guarantee that the defense would have played much differently than it did.

 

MFanWM

November 19th, 2017 at 3:56 PM ^

He simply hit a few passes into spaces I am not sure he has done before. Several of the throws and catches had excellent coverage and Wisconsin simply made great plays.



Could argue Mettelus was slow to react to the TD but Hudson also gave the inside slant. Without knowing the actual assignment there it is hard to say

M-Dog

November 19th, 2017 at 4:03 PM ^

We make fun of Hornibrook for his derps, but I admire what he did in spite of them. 

He stepped up and made winning plays in the fight for a championship.  That's what makes you a championship team, making those hard, challenging plays under duress when it counts.

Players make plays.

I'd like to see our own guys start to hit some of those above-and-beyond plays.

 

BigVig

November 19th, 2017 at 5:55 PM ^

Paul Hornung was an excellent college football player and a huge blowhard but I'm not sure which game you are referring to because Notre Dame never played Michigan during his career.  He played during the 1944-1977 period when the Irish ducked Michigan.

Blarvey

November 19th, 2017 at 4:28 PM ^

As others have pointed out, I think this has more to do with not being able to run the ball late the game and burn clock. Even then, it is exaggerated when the defense alread knows you can't pass well. 

eury

November 19th, 2017 at 6:03 PM ^

Completely agree.

I think about how rare it's been since Lloyd, for a senior at Michigan to be playing for the coach that recruited them.

That's on a head coach level. Think about the constant churn we have had at coordinator positions.

We have built no consistency whatsoever in this program and there is no depth.

Blueblood80

November 19th, 2017 at 5:10 PM ^

You may not ask a question about the defensive philosophy. It’s actually the last area to question. Those guys bring it EVERY game. They dare you to complete low percentage pass plays and Wisconsin completed a few. M completed none (after Peters went down) and low and behold the game was done for.

gbdub

November 19th, 2017 at 5:24 PM ^

Ultimately, the offense only scored 10 points (three of those almost entirely due to a short field after a defense generated turnover). And special teams gave up 7.

So if you think the defense lost us that game, you’re literally EXPECTING the D to pitch a net shutout or better. Against a top 5 team. That’s insane.

SunDiegoBlue

November 19th, 2017 at 6:18 PM ^

Our front four is dominate at putting on pressure. When it is third and mike you would think rush for drop 7 would provide the highest chance of success (pressure, sack, rushed throw, catch before the chains and tackle, etc)

BlueGoM

November 19th, 2017 at 7:23 PM ^

"I fully expected the Wisconsin defense to wear down in the second half"

but you're surprised ours apparently  did.  So you expect our superhuman mutant defenders to never tire but it's fully expected the other team does. OK.

"frequent late game collapses"  please provide acutal data to back this up.

tybert

November 19th, 2017 at 7:33 PM ^

The TD drive that made it 14-10 was painful - two long 3rd down conversions - not sure we "screwed up" that bad on either play. 

I really think Peters leaving and the way he did deflated the entire sideline. We're dealing with 18-22 year old guys. Last time I was their age, Harbaugh was our QB.

This defense would be lights out a Stanford power offense. Have to see more games where our TOP is 35 minutes or more because I conclude we wilted.

The real problem on this defense is our safeties don't seem to be much of anything special (missed tackles, bad angles, beat in coverage, etc.) - they should be getting more chances to pick passes when the QB is under pressure. I think Don has us playing aggressive because I don't think he feels we could cover zone with the safeties we have.  Too bad we don't have Kovacs and Gordon with the front 7. 

Durham Blue

November 19th, 2017 at 8:09 PM ^

The two long 3rd down conversions happened because the pass rush was weak and didn't force the QB to throw.  The coverage was good throughout the game and Hornibrook made great throws.  Sometimes good things happen for the other team.  With a better offense we would've stuck with Wisconsin and probably won that game.  We need both units to function well, not just the D.

MonkeyMan

November 19th, 2017 at 8:00 PM ^

jbrandimore

You actually bring up a good point. I logged on just to give you some support and tell you that you are not unreasonable for simply asking this question. 

Yes, our defense does tend to collapse late in the game- this was very noticable in last year's OSU game- we were completely gassed by overtime.

Could it be the fault of our offense not staying on the field? Those who make this argument may be right- but they don't seem to connect the dots. If we have a weak offense that is off the field quickly- then it makes sense for us to conserve energy on defense b/c its going to be out there a while no mattter what style of play it engages in.

Being on the field a lot + blitzing = fatigue

Hope you got a chance to read this

Carcajou

November 19th, 2017 at 8:15 PM ^

It's partly the fault of the ineffective offense. But it's also the downside of the hyper-agressive philosophy and style of play. Motors inevitably wear down.



Good OCs figure out during the course of the game how to shore up protections, and which formations will get them the matchups they need. They look for ways to use Michigan's aggression against them. They also learn what the officials are letting them get away with.



That, and yes, defensive players do get tired, not to mention wounded. Later in the game, it looked to me as though later on Bush, and others, started playing a little higher, reaching a little more with their hands, moving less (or with less control) with their feet.

BallCoachDubb

November 19th, 2017 at 10:24 PM ^

 when they were up 14-10 is what ended this game, lol. You try to stop this play. Def was still playing very good and this just ended it.  This play is Glorious!!! Look at the oline. They ran this last week for a TD vs Iowa and when i was watching the clips of it prior to the game, I was thinking please don't pull this out again. I mean you can't run it two weeks in a row, can you lol.  Amazing thing is Bush almost stops this play.  He had the angle and would have stopped the ball carrier i believe for a short gain, def not a TD.  But the design to have the RT climb and then peel back on the Mike is such an amazing play design.  Most people wouldn't think that far, they would just bet on the ball carrier beating the Mike. But this is by design because the RT did the same thing vs Iowa last week, even though the Iowa Mike had no shot at the ball carrier.  The fact that Bush could read the false key but instead of flying out the box, keep reading and wait for the counter and then attack shows how truly special that kid is.  He just couldn't beat that peel back block to make the play in time.

https://twitter.com/SpreadOffense/status/931971969419038720

 

 

 

FlexUM

November 20th, 2017 at 8:08 AM ^

I agree there are some really tough 3rd and long conversions that have occured but no defense is perfect. This defense gave up 17 points to the #5 team on the road. That shit has to be enough. 

I'm not saying we can analyze and be critical but for all the great stuff the defense does there is going to be some bad...every defense has a weakness that will be expoited at times.