The RR integrity meme
I've pretty much already posted this once, but not nearly enough people responded to it, so here goes again. Also, this was going to be forum, but as usual, it got long, so go diary!
It seems to always come up, and I just don't know why:
"RR is no Lloyd Carr when it comes to integrity."
Listen, I sometimes miss Carr and his literature-referencing ways, but RR really has not done anything to indicate he is some sort of two timing backstabber.
This article has already been posted, but everyone really needs to read what they are writing about RR in Columbus.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2008/11/19/michfb19…
Lloyd Carr always seemed to be a nice guy who represented Michigan with dignity, HOWEVA
>> LC used to love ot punish players by taking away their status as a starter if it was a non-MAC game (he might bench 'em for a MAC game). You'd see MM/AA on the field literally a few plays into the first drive after their various run ins with the law.
>> RR benched Stonum, Butler, and Grady for major minutes due to various problems.
>> I keep reading that Babb got kicked off, for violating rules, more than quit.
>> Remember Carty's article about MM's lack of responsibility when he got drafted? It was a little high horsin' for me, but I think the point that MM is still a kid who knows nothing about responsibility is semi-valid.
>> RR kept ADAM FRICKIN PACMAN FRICKIN JONES in line for his entire college career!
>> Brandon Harrison seems to think RR did the dignified thing, and even the Columbus dispatch described their bond as the kind "only Michigan men can feel" for one another.
Every time I get upset (each Saturday, that is) I feel like RR comes out and directly addresses every worry of mine in his PC. Sure, he speaks like a West Virginian. But man, he speaks like a West Virginian, you know? On some level, don't you appreciate the way he speaks to us? I guess I can't pretend to know him as a man from his press conferences, but let's look at some evidence:
>> Desmond Howard and many other alumni have mentioned how personable he is, and to me that seems apparent in his PCs.
>> His program is run as tight as a ship can be run. Curfews, strict punishments, etc. The men might hate him, but they will love him when they look back (most not all, of course). I really believe the way he seems to be running his program is the best way to prepare these kids for post college responsibilities.
>> The buyout/lawsuit business appears to be as much a financial decision of th University as anything. I highly doubt RR had any input, since it was largely not his money anyway.
>> RR is like any other competitor. He wants to win, and wants the resources to put him in a position to win. Michigan offered unlimited opportnity, West Virginia offered him nothing, and had plenty of chanes to keep him in the fold.
>> The Carson Butler case study is interesting as well. He was in and out of Lloyd's doghouse his whole career. He gets in trouble by RR, gets benched, and now has fought his way back to playing time through the defense. Carson Butler had nothing to play for. His starting spot had been given to some freshman, yet "Mr. Bad Attitude" decides to suck it up, try harder, and learn something new. RR seems to be able to motivate someone who we previously thought "unmotivate-able" to claw his way into the lineup through a position change. I believe this is the sign of a great teacher/motivator/coach.
Anyway, give the guy some slack, I believe he will be a tremendous (that was for you, Lloyd) winner at UM, but I also believe he will just as likely go down as a "typical, classy, Michigan man" in the end.
Sorry, I put the over/under on "tl;dr" comments at 5.
November 19th, 2008 at 8:48 PM ^
I agree with you on a lot of this, and people who actually know this new coaching staff know they aren't how the media portrays them. John Bacon, an alum and journalist is actually working on a feature piece about RR and the season and how he has been misrepresented. He has pretty much full access, sitting in on all sorts of pregame and post-game meetings and such, and should make this message more clear.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:04 PM ^
I saw you used my quote about Rich Rod's integrity and I agree with what your saying, good evidence to back it up. Go Blue!
November 19th, 2008 at 9:07 PM ^
tl;dr
Just kidding. I agree with a lot of what you posted, but I think that this stems from how he left West Virginia, and I'm not referring to the buyout. He turned interest from Alabama into a contract extension (just about every coach does this, but it still seems dirty) and he allegedly shredded all of WVU's important football documents.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:37 PM ^
Seriously? Why am I bothering to discredit this nonsense... blah
The Alabama deal turned into a fat contract extension but there is nothing to indicate that he considered changing jobs with that in mind. Perhaps it indicates that his dissatisfaction with the incompetent and unprofessional administration at WVU began earlier than the 2007 season???
The documents he shredded were his copies of player records. They were not the only copies. He was protecting sensitive player information.
The spin the media put on those events is indicative of something, though
November 19th, 2008 at 10:41 PM ^
It sounds like we're on the same page.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:12 PM ^
Lloyd started to lose energy toward the end of his career, IMO. I have to admit I didn't follow the program as closely as I do now but it seemed that players were getting into a lot more trouble the last couple years. The other thing I notice is that our conditioning was never consistent. In 2005 the coaches decided we were too fat and then everyone busts their ass for 2006 but come 2007 guys decided they proved themselves the previous year and slacked off again.
With RR and the rest of the staff being young I don't think they will let up on the players as much.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:34 PM ^
definitely agree with that, that especially seems to be playing out in the early season discipline problems at psu.
November 19th, 2008 at 9:29 PM ^
Just to add to your list: one of the most promising statistics of this year (I am not sure if it is still true but I recall hearing the announcers say it during the Purdue game) is that Michigan is the least penalized team in the Big Ten. Sounds like integrity to me
November 20th, 2008 at 10:49 AM ^
That's discipline. Of course, it could also be tentativeness resulting in a lack of taking chances or being agressive. Either way, it's not necessarily indicative of integrity.
November 20th, 2008 at 11:30 AM ^
SMQ (back at the old SMQ site before he became Dr. Saturday) had a running feature over the summer where he looked at which statistics most often led to victory. I think they were things like running yards, passing yards, time of possession, etc. The memorable part was that the team penalized less actually lost more often than they won. The speculation on it was, yes, the more aggressive teams were probably penalized more when they had a hard time keeping that aggressiveness under control, but made more plays when they did control it. So maybe a little less discipline would be good if it helps actually stopping anyone on third and long.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:39 PM ^
I noticed that line about integrity in the previous post and almost responded. This seems to be one of those things that gets repeated enough that it becomes accepted as fact. I have not seen anything to suggest that he has an integrity problem. He may not be as scholarly as Lloyd, but neither was Bo or Mo. The other thing is the on field behavior of the players. Although I loved the result against Florida in the Cap One Bowl, some of the on field celebration and jawing was getting to the point of embarrassing--nothing too excessive but more than I like. I like RR's emphasis on handing the ball to the ref and overall discipline looks better. Probably just an old fart observation.
Overall, RR was depicted as slimy for taking a new job. I think that UM dictated fighting the payout but even if they didn't, it was a bad decision not some sign of moral terpitude.
November 20th, 2008 at 3:01 AM ^
Believe what you see, not what you hear or read.
If WVU didn't provide Rodriguez with the tools he needed to succeed then explain how it is that WVU has had three consecutive top ten finishes and came a victory over Pitt short of playing in the BCS championship. (RR was negotiating his departure to Michigan in the week leading up to that game). Was he distracted, or just not given enough support?
If Rodriguez accomplished so much with so little support then it must be because he is one of the greatest college football coaches of all time. Do you really believe that?
The inventor of the spread offense has been called a football genius but after taking over a team that was built around a more traditional style of offense what does he do?
Does he build his offensive style around the talent available or does he try to change the players to fit his style? What would a genius do?
Did he control Pacman Jones, or did he cover for him? Same with Chris Henry? Do you believe these guys turned bad after they left WVU and that they were "controlled" by the great Rodriguez while they were playing for him?
Nobody is sure what he shredded before he left Morgantown, some say it was nothing important, some believe that it was nothing at all. Then again, there are some who think he may have destroyed some incriminating evidence. Believe what you want but the shredder was humming on the day before his departure.
It is my opinion that y'all have no idea who is coaching your team and for your sake I hope he leaves before causing serious harm.
Can you say "death penalty"?
November 20th, 2008 at 6:50 AM ^
Really...bringing up that lame, fallacious "shredgate" just shreds any inkling of substance that you had to your "argument"...
so you troll on in your WVU manner...almost a year later
and you still have not let it go.
death penalty? if that applys to your posts them Im all for it.
November 20th, 2008 at 8:57 AM ^
Do you expect anyone to take you seriously?
"Believe what you see, not what you hear or read."
If we are to take your advice, then we should paradoxically not take your advice because it is WRITTEN.
But this is pretty good advice in general, because as we've been discussing if we just "hear" or "read" the abbreviated media or commoner stories (usually influenced by the media or hearsay themselves) then we aren't getting the full picture. But, for example, when we watch the entire press conference we see a man of integrity. Thanks for the tip
November 20th, 2008 at 9:26 AM ^
Clearly, the entire message of my post was 'believe what you see'
The MSM has been feeding us a long line of dirt on RR and, like I said, it's become something of a meme the guy has no class.
All the evidence that I am aware of points to the contrary. I highly doubt he 'covered' for those two as you said because he certainly didn't try to cover up Stonum's run in with the law. In fact, he punished him severely before the MSM had even heard the authorities had acted.
Anyone suggesting "shredgate" should actually be considered as some sort of indictment of the man is clearly a product of the post-apopalyptic bed of insanity hanging over morgantown.
November 20th, 2008 at 9:44 AM ^
Lately I have been a leading proponent of skepticism because i think it is not unfair to be skeptical after this season. But I think your reasoning is a bit off.
The logical dilemma people are having seems to be that "RR has clearly been successful before, but he doesn't seem to be now- what gives?"
I agree with you that you can't just ASSUME that RR will be good, but i think at this point you are really ignoring facts if you don't admit that RR's past suggests PROBABLE success. It's not as if he's coming off of 4 jobs where he was a complete failure.
November 20th, 2008 at 10:51 AM ^
You said "y'all". That's adorable.
November 20th, 2008 at 9:11 AM ^
Our old hillbilly friend reminded me of my best bet regarding the origin of the Rich Rod is Pure Evil meme. It is perpetuated by the media's profiting from making controversy out of nothing.
In a word: Ressentiment-- is a sense of resentment and hostility directed at that which one identifies as the cause of one's frustration, an assignation of blame for one's frustration. The sense of weakness or inferiority and perhaps jealousy in the face of the "cause" generates a rejecting/justifying value system, or morality, which attacks or denies the perceived source of one's frustration. The ego creates an enemy, to insulate itself from culpability. (from Wikipedia)
Rich Rod left WVU. West Virginians felt inadequate at this. So, they posited an evil persona to their once-beloved Rich Rod to absolve themselves of any responsibility.
November 20th, 2008 at 9:39 AM ^
First and foremost I will say to all I am a new member to the site and I am from WV. I am a WVU fan and (believe it or not) still a fan of RR and wish he and the UM program well. I don't hold a grudge for him leaving and understand why. I don't like the way he left and niether would you if he leaves you the same way. With that being said I will offer the following for you to digest.
As for his handing down of punishments. He will hand down the strongest to those that won't hurt the teams chances to win and slaps the hands of those that will. You refer to Chris Henry and Pacman, and his ability to keep them in check. Both of these guys left early and were constantly in trouble while at WVU so he hardly kept them in line at all. Niether of them were suspended for any more than a quarter in any game that had a true effect on the season.
At West Virginia all of RR's issues were being addressed they just weren't getting there as fast as he wanted and he didn't like it but all things were getting taken care of and are all completed now. There may be a few financial items he didn't like (fundraising items and such). He made a top ten program out of mostly three star athletes and lesser talent, that is due to him being a hell of a coach not because of the money the university was spending on facilities or saving for recruiting.
Well I made my case for his coaching abilities now the integrity.... He will tell you what he wants you to hear and think!!! Which is evident by his handling of the change from WVU to UM. In every interview he had (not just during the week he left) he continually stated that he was the coach at WVU and he will be the coach at WVU. Only to leave on a plane under the cover of darkness to work the deal with his agent. Is that integrity or a man of his word? His rules are applied only when he feels it won't effect a game or a season and not evenly across the board. A person with integrity will apply those rules evenly to all involved not just when it is beneficial.
I truely like RR as a coach and feel that UM will be a true power again in about his third year, but you have to give him time. He went 3-8 at WVU his first year after WVU had a winning season and won it's bowl game the year before also. He will recruit good talent and change the landscape of UM football making it into HIS team and one you all can be proud of. But as for integrity????? Don't believe a word he says and only half of what you see from him!!!
November 20th, 2008 at 10:12 AM ^
I don't want to be rude, but I'm a hobo. This "under the cover of darkness" shit is pathetic. Would he have more integrity if the plane left while there was still daylight (which in December, there isn't after 5pm)?
You ever changed jobs before? When you were interviewing, did you keep your present employer fully informed of how your interviews were going and who they were with? Or did you keep it under wraps until you knew you had secured another job?
Coaches unfortunately can't just keep everything totally under wraps because they have media scrutiny. So they have to parse their words. Why is this so hard to understand?
Not that I would know about changing jobs... or having one, even. I'm a hobo. But I hear things.
November 20th, 2008 at 10:49 AM ^
You question integrity with comments like this?
"First and foremost I will say to all I ... am still a fan of RR."
You then go on and a bunch of negative comments and backhanded compliments about the man, finishing it all off with this:
"But as for integrity????? Don't believe a word he says..."
And you're still a fan, eh?
Liar. Troll. Inbred mountain person.
"His rules are applied only when he feels it won't effect a game or a season and not evenly across the board."
Butler would have helped this team, and who knows, maybe Babb as well. He held them out and removed Butler's starting position for disciplinary reasons. Your comments are unjustified. This season, there is enough negativity without jilted ex's coming to these forums and spewing their filth.
My advice to you? Get over RR. He's gone. Leave him be and just move on.
November 20th, 2008 at 11:09 AM ^
LOL, you're an idiot....too damn stupid to understand that one doesn't have to like the way a person acts or their beliefs to apprectiate the job that he does....if you have a job you probably encounter people all the time that you dislike as a person yet respect the way they do their job... that's where I am with RR....I am over RR and I know he's gone....GOOD I am glad for both of us....but don't piss and moan when you don't get what you want from him either.....GO FUCK YOURSELF IDIOT!!!!
November 20th, 2008 at 2:29 PM ^
"His rules are applied only when he feels it won't effect a game or a season and not evenly across the board."
True, he is not entirely honest. And while honesty is important, people draw the line differently. Some might have criticized Lloyd and Bo for being deceitful by not divulging every single little detail about the program, whether it's John Q. Public's business or not. I would consider those people irrational.
Your point is not entirely unjustified, but it falls into the part of the subjectively defined "dishonesty" spectrum that I couldn't care less about. There is also something here you've overlooked. He wasn't hiding details out of selfishness because if he had divulged the entire details it would have affected a lot more people than just him -- and negatively. Would it be fair to the players to tarnish their season in such a way? One thing I am sure of when it comes to RR: He has tremendous concern for the players. No saint, perhaps, but he seems like a good guy where it counts the most.
November 20th, 2008 at 10:02 AM ^
"...and came a victory over Pitt short of playing in the BCS championship. (RR was negotiating his departure to Michigan in the week leading up to that game)."
Just. Stop. It.
I know the post-apocalypticos of WV are still bitter about gacking it up to Pitt and would love to blame that loss on something other than "shit happens" and "Pat White was injured and didn't play much of the game" but... no.
Say it with me: RR DID NOT EVEN MEET WITH MICHIGAN UNTIL AFTER THAT GAME. He wasn't "distracted" or "negotiating." YOUR TEAM JUST LOST BECAUSE SOMETIMES THAT HAPPENS.
Stop making shit up already. It gets this hobo cranky.
November 20th, 2008 at 10:23 AM ^
john bacon seems like a very nice fellow but not the most objective observer when it comes to michigan...i think he is employed by the university right now as an instructor
November 20th, 2008 at 10:35 AM ^
You "think" he's an instructor or you know it, and therefore he's unobjective?
It's precisely this kind of crap that's been directed at Michigan and RR this year at an unprecedented level. People like Carty trying to make news using half truths rather than report it. Boodini citing "unnamed sources".
Man, that garbage has gotten old.
Everything I know and have read about Bacon is that he's a standup guy. I look forward to getting his perspective on this article.
Lord knows we've gotten enough perspective from the critics this year.
November 21st, 2008 at 3:06 PM ^
This is from John bacon's website
http://johnubacon.com/classes.html
John has designed and taught four courses at The University of Michigan and Miami University (Ohio). These include:
"The History of College Athletics,” at the University of Michigan
John created this course on the uniquely American phenomenon of college athletics for U-M’s American Culture and History departments.
We’ve become so accustomed to watching nationally televised football and basketball games played before packed stadiums on college campuses we rarely stop to wonder how this institution ever came into being. No other nation, not even Canada, takes college sports seriously. Why do we?
The student evaluations gave both the course and professor a score of 4.98 out of 5.00, the University’s highest. The course has the longest wait list on campus.
“The Rise and Fall of American Sportswriting,” University of Michigan and Miami University (Ohio).
Sports do not exist in a vacuum. In America, arguably more than in any other society, sports have reflected our values and our times, and quite often, have actually served as the catalyst for sweeping changes. As a result, the messengers of this medium – in this case, the sportswriters and broadcasters – have taken on a vital role. “The Rise and Fall of the American Sportswriter” will examine five phases to explain the vital role sportswriters played in the crucial early years of American sport, and how that role has grown and changed, right up to the present day.
This course has the second-longest wait list on Michigan’s campus, behind Bacon’s first course.
University of Michigan Students Lining Up For Bacon
by Jennifer Zobel/Michigan Daily/U. Michigan
Jan. 9, 2008
(UWIRE) ANN ARBOR, Mich. — Before this semester began, students scoured through their course guides to choose from the more than 1,000 classes offered at the University.
As always, many students with later registration dates found waitlists rather than open seats in the classes they wanted to take.
Though sitting eleventh on a waitlist probably wouldn’t faze most students, what about being eighty-ninth?
According to the Registrar’s Office, the History of College Athletics, offered by the American Culture department, has the longest waitlist this semester, once boasting a total of 89 students.
*****
But beyond the subject matter, many students might be enticed by the popularity of the professor. The class, first offered at the University in the fall of 2006, is taught by campus favorite Prof. John Bacon.
Bacon also teaches a course called The Rise and Fall of the American Sportswriter. That class has a lengthy waitlist of its own, with a total of 51 students.
will be glad to supply more of "this kind of crap" to other internet-disabled posters----this is all from the man's own website
November 21st, 2008 at 3:53 PM ^
I never cited John F. Bacon (Freakin') as evidence that RR was a class act.
November 20th, 2008 at 10:37 AM ^
I especially like the Carson Butler analogy.
And +1 for the use of the word "tremendous". Lloyd would be proud!
November 20th, 2008 at 11:58 AM ^
Hoopie, This:
"(RR was negotiating his departure to Michigan in the week leading up to that game). Was he distracted, or just not given enough support?"
Is contradicted by WVU's own fucking attorney.
November 20th, 2008 at 12:35 PM ^
I do have to admit, I did not research Pacman Jones' or Chris Henry's history at WVU. I did assume, that since I had not heard of their discipline problems in the MSM until they were in the NFL, that they were at least relatively "quiet" in their college careers.
That may have been in error. I do, however, stand by the fact that Stonum and Butler and Grady (esp. at the beginning of the year before we had Minor) were significant contributers, whom we needed to play, and who got benched for (more than) a whole game.
November 21st, 2008 at 1:40 AM ^
I know that you were going for the comparison and contrast between RR and LC, but having read quite a bit of Bo's writing, the similarities between RR and Bo are really quite remarkable. All one has to do is read "Bo's Lasting Lessons" and it becomes blatantly obvious that Michigan has a "Michigan man" for a coach in the truest sense of what we all know that to mean. I am quite confident in my belief that Bo himself would be incredibly pleased with the hire of RR and the way that RR is moulding this program. The haters really do need to learn some perspective.
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