Michigan over-signing?

Submitted by Anonymous Coward (not verified) on August 4th, 2008 at 12:29 PM

Since Brian was one of the main bloggers to call attention to Saban's oversigning, I'd be curious about what you think the "ethical" thing to do at this point would be.

As you say, with the Florida kids and the kicker, we will have one more commitment than we have scholarship spots. You point out Winston, the additional Florida kids, and (maybe?) a DE that may be committing in the class. Would it be "ethical" for Rich Rodriguez to continue to recruit kids he's not sure will have space for a scholarship? I understand that these are verbals now, and aren't binding, but what happens if we gain commitments from Hawthorne, Smith, Jackson, Winston, Roh, a kicker, and either Hadley or Teague? That puts us with 5 more verbals than we have scholarships.

What happens if, in February, we only have 2 kids leave the team? Does RR call 3 kids and tell them "tough shit"? Would that be "ethical"? Is it just a race, and the three last kids to sign have to go elsewhere? Wouldn't signing more kids, right now, essentially be "hoping" that we have a certain level of attrition...which is exactly the charge levied against Saban?

I understand that this is a hypothetical, but I wonder if the situation (a potential to not have scholarships for everyone) would hurt on the recruiting trail?

Comments

SFBayAreaBlue

August 4th, 2008 at 12:39 PM ^

I thought I read this spring that we didn't even have a full roster of 85 and RR said it would take a few years to get the numbers up because he could only recruit 25 a year. Where is the discrepancy from 'needing more than 25 per year' to around 'abouts 17 available' coming from? Are people counting walk-ons as available scholarships? Aren't we giving like 5 walk-ons scholarships for this year?

Tim Waymen

August 4th, 2008 at 12:39 PM ^

I'm wondering, would it be better to take away offers from kids who haven't yet committed because of space limitations? It sounds like a really bad idea, because no recruit is a certainty, but we already have plenty of safeties, WRs, and RBs, largely of the 3* variety. Does it makes sense to just take away the offers of Vincent Smith and the other FL guy and tell them, "sorry but we simply have too many in your position"? Let's say RR were to do that, then somehow got Shaq Evans and Darius Winston (in my dreams). Would it undermine his integrity and/or make him look like an asshole? It doesn't seem right.

MGoObes

August 4th, 2008 at 12:43 PM ^

so us "oversigning" isn't the same as alabama's oversigning and being over the limit. we could hypothetically do it and still be fine. i'm not sure what the fuss is about.

goody

August 4th, 2008 at 12:44 PM ^

that if a player enrolls for the 09' winter semester they count against your 08' recruiting class because they would be a freshman academically. Recruiting and scholarships are just confusing.

bsb2002

August 4th, 2008 at 12:45 PM ^

tim - that happens every year. offers come and offers go as for the oversigning thing. the 17 number is a bit low because there will be a few un-renewed 5th years, which is standard. generally though, while the situation has the potential to get ugly, it's so early in the process that i think it's fair to assume some fluidity, both with our numbers and with the commitments. saban put himself in a position where he absolutely had to lose a whole bunch of guys asap. we arent anywhere close to that point. the season hasnt even started.

chitownblue (not verified)

August 4th, 2008 at 12:48 PM ^

BlueSeoul - if you go here: http://mgoblog.com/content/michigan-depth-chart-class-0

And just count up the people that have eligibility next year, we have 17 spots. Now, people may leave early, people may get hurt, scrubs may not use a 5th year, whatever.

MGoObes - the questions is, really, if Brian thinks it would ethical to take more commitments than we knowlingly have spots for, seeing as we're about to do it. It's one think to take commitments now, when we have no idea how many spots will open up, than it is in February - when, theoretically, spots already have.

BSB - I agree, it has the "potential" to get ugly - I don't think it is. I'm really only asking it as a hypothetical, given Brian's stance on Alabama.

bsb2002

August 4th, 2008 at 12:47 PM ^

a clarification on oversigning. the 25 limit wont be a problem for us, so the summer enrollment thing doesnt work. it's the 85 scholarship limit we'll run up against

gater

August 4th, 2008 at 12:48 PM ^

offering more scholarships than what we have is not over signing since they haven't signed anything. the problem with cutting someone once they've signed is that they can't go anywhere else for a whole year, if you fill all of your spots and you still have a few verbals that didn't sign right away, they can still sign with another team that year and not miss any school (who am i kidding? football). when it comes to verbals you almost have to over offer because some of the kids will be lured by another school's snake oil.

baleedat

August 4th, 2008 at 12:58 PM ^

can't RR just pull offers at anytime (like for anyone they're recruiting at DB)? i mean they certainly don't need the three guys from florida beacause they have more than enough DBs and RBs at this point.

SFBayAreaBlue

August 4th, 2008 at 1:06 PM ^

there's the number 2 comes up for transfers, but there's 3 names. that's 14, plus 4 unused makes 18. plus brian lists 4 more possibilities under his 'wild ass guess' column, putting us to 22, and are the kickers on scholarship? I thought lloyd had a policy of only having one or so kicker on schollie at a time. Anyway I see the possibility of another 3 or four guys being encouraged to transfer, *cough*cone*cough*cough* So I would be shocked if we didn't take a full class this year, plus we have two or three slots we can shift to this year from early enrollment. Stonum doesn't count against this year's class, and we only had like 24 this spring. so we can take up to 27 if we have two early enrollee's? like i said, mi muy confusado!

Tacopants

August 4th, 2008 at 1:50 PM ^

Early enrollment won't help us.  Theoretically speaking, you can sign 25 players a year for 5 straight years, redshirting each freshman class and end up with a total of 125 players.

The NCAA sets the school limit at 85 scholarship players total/25 incoming freshman a year.  Early enrollment helps when you sign 27 and need to be at 25 for a given class, 2 can early enroll and count towards the previous class (if it wasn't already at the limit)

chitownblue (not verified)

August 4th, 2008 at 1:11 PM ^

When your scholarship kicker is Bryan Wright, then I think violating the "one scholarship kicker at a time" rule is wise.

bsb2002

August 4th, 2008 at 1:14 PM ^

i'll be shocked if we offer a kicker until more spaces open up. we're not going to tell darius winston "sorry a kicker took your place." those kids will have to wait

Michigan Arrogance

August 4th, 2008 at 1:15 PM ^

1) s'ship offer != signed LOI 2) we are 6 months from LOI day and 13 months from 09 camp. lots of time there. 3) there will be plenty of attrition: Coner, a RB, a TE, maybe a LBer. we'll be at 25 just like the last class and the classes after for a while.

Brian

August 4th, 2008 at 1:15 PM ^

Various points: 1) Though the technical number right now is 17, there are a couple of fifth-year guys (Savoy and Criswell) who are obvious candidates for the firm handshake at year's end. As previously stated, I don't have a problem with this since these guys should know what's coming and have degree in hand by then. 2) It's completely reasonable to plan for and recruit like there is going to be a moderate amount of attrition. It's August. There are 6 months before Signing Day. 3) If it all goes pear-shaped and there is zero attrition and you have to pull a scholarship offer before Signing Day, that player has options elsewhere and can sign a LOI with another team. Once you've locked in way more guys than you can actually take you're assuring that some of those players will have to go to JUCO or prep, or that certain players on the team have to leave. My big thing is: never put yourself in a situation where you have to have kids leave the program or, in the case of incoming freshmen, fail to qualify. Michigan's not going to do that.

chitownblue (not verified)

August 4th, 2008 at 1:22 PM ^

Rush N Attack, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying we're doing the same thing as Alabama.

I was curious if Brian thought that offering a significant number more scholarsips than we knowingly have is ethical. I know his stance on over SIGNING.

And he answered the questions. Case closed.

Jivas

August 4th, 2008 at 1:43 PM ^

I do have a problem with pushing kids out the door after 4 years, especially in cases where a player might have been set on a slower academic path and would not be on pace to graduate in 4 years. I don't have a problem with informing kids that they probably won't see the field if they come back, and allowing them to decide to leave as a result, but I do have some moral issues with pushing a kid out the door or not offering a fifth year; the certainty of the fifth year, IMO, is a fair price to pay for asking a player to take a redshirt season in the first place.  Taking a redshirt season is an investment that, IMO, is a two-way street.

Other than that, the posters above have it right: Verbal committment =/= Letter of intent. If RRod actually *oversigns*, or if there are indications that he will do so, then we revisit the subject.

Tacopants

August 4th, 2008 at 2:05 PM ^

Just speculation here, but they would have to be on an extremely slow academic plan not to graduate in 4 years.  Consider that the vast majority are in LSA, which is a 120 credit program.  Walking in the door with 0 AP or transfer credit means 8 semesters at 15 credits per, or 10 semesters at 12 credits per.

If you were to take into account most players taking spring + summer term classe, 3 credits each in spring and summer means they take 30 credits a year  (12 + 12 + 3 + 3) for 4 years.  This of course is assuming that they don't fail a ton of classes, which is entirely likely but would also make them ineligible.  Once again assuming, most 5th year seniors that get renewed probably work in a Leinart type style where they aren't full time students and need something like Ballroom dancing so that they don't graduate but don't actually have a difficult class.

Jayshmie007

August 4th, 2008 at 10:33 PM ^

Freshman long snapper George Morales and freshman linebacker Paul Gyarmati joined Michigan's 105-man list for fall camp and were both on hand for the first practice. • Walk-on Karl Tech decided to leave the program and will not participate in fall camp.