WTKA Roundtable 12/5/2019: In Ann Arbor It's Always 24-12 Comment Count

Seth December 5th, 2019 at 12:34 PM

Football things discussed:

  • Best OSU team at least since 2014, probably ever
  • Most undisciplined game, especially by the defense, in a long time.
  • Craig calls out fans: 25,000 truck drivers invited, students late, even calls out MMB
  • You get to halftime down 12 it's over. Four key sequences: Patterson gets two called runs and doesn't cut behind his blocking for a TD, then fumbles the snap. Offsides. And two long yardage situations when they didn't cover a drag route.
  • Like the Wisconsin game because DTs can't hold up.
  • Sorta like the PSU game when PSU didn't do anything and Michigan shot themselves in the foot, except Ohio State kills you if you do that.
  • Sam: I get mistakes from Chris Hinton, but when it's Khaleke it's gotta be LBs just freaking out because they're overmatched. Haskins botched his 4th down run because pin didn't work 1st time and he cut back.
  • Brian: Justin Fields hasn't stepped on Ohio State's campus; doing nothing all day every day except football is why Ohio State wins this game; Michigan won't hit parity until they have that kind of dedication. M's DTs don't have the level of focus, OSU's players have learned how to dribble a football.
  • Heartening to see the offense come along. It's not "What are we doing?" anymore.
  • Scuttlebutt: McCaffrey can throw the ball. Sam: If Boston College calls Don Brown he'll take the call, but not sure they will.

Hoops things discussed:

  • Battle for Atlantis: WHY DON'T THEY GIVE YOU A TRIDENT? That floor is an abomination: always wet ballroom is gonna lead to injuries.
  • (Unless Juwan Howard is around) His speech at the end of the tournament established him as a mensch.
  • Credit to Ohio State's hoops team who beat an injured UNC on their floor. UNC might not be very good—they don't have their same five-stars and eyebrows guy anymore. Leaky Black is playing, Brooks just a guy at center, they're going to be .500 in the ACC this year.
  • Louisville: doesn't bother us—schedule loss since Cardinals have been prepping for Michigan all year. They were LOCKED IN for this game, especially with how they prepped for the screens. M had two days to prepare for L'ville and they had 2 months.
  • The Screens, The Screens, The Screens! UNC: Michigan runs you off so many screens there's no way to keep up. Like Michigan State: are you going to keep hedging as well if you're banging off screen after screen?
  • Won't matter for Iowa because Iowa doesn't play D. M's going to become a better post team, but that's not efficient offense.
  • X has to be better at faking passes that aren't there and going to Livers in the corner. Semi-contested threes are their money shot.
  • Ohio State the team to beat in the Big Ten? Of course: nothing goes wrong for those guys. What about Purdue—other than recruiting Matt Painter is among the best coaches in the country.
  • Sam: I hate Iowa. Luka Garza has bulked up and gets a lot of contested stuff up now.

[Player after THE JUMP]

You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream.

Segment two is here. Section three is here.

THE USUAL LINKS

Michigan doesn't take the rivalry as serious as Ohio State and you see the results on the field.

Comments

GoBlueTal

December 5th, 2019 at 12:43 PM ^

"Brian: Justin Fields hasn't stepped on Ohio State's campus; doing nothing all day every day except football is why Ohio State wins this game; Michigan won't hit parity until they have that kind of dedication. M's DTs don't have the level of focus, OSU's players have learned how to dribble a football."

So to put it another way, Brian wants the end of college athletics?  Because really, the Toledo Mudhens are a huge tv draw, eh?  Brian wants direct paid players, no classes, no connection to the school save wearing the name.  What's the point in having a team?  End the charade already, the OSUs of the world don't want to play no school no-how, let the kids who want to be college students get back to being athletic college students, and let the minor league players go be minor league players.  Everyone - especially Brian - will be better off!  

Seth

December 5th, 2019 at 1:06 PM ^

Talking with his tongue in his cheek. I thought that would come off as obvious.

It's not so easy though, man. I know Bacon loves minor league football as the answer but why would the schools and NCAA give up that money, why would fans switch, why would players go if there isn't as much money to be made? All of the pro football minor leagues have failed. That's an ideal solution that doesn't take into account the reality of the players involved. If you got someone in charge of the NCAA who super-duper serious and forced this down everybody's throats there'd be a revolt from the Ohio State and Alabama and Georgia and Oklahoma fans who are like "We've been this way forever, why are you fucking us over now?"

What college football has done in the past is set leagues apart for the ones who want to be football factories and the ones who want to maintain a semblance of the educational aspect by limiting how much time can be spent on football. What's happened is a few Ivy Leagues drop out of the top echelon and 130 programs who use football as their front porch jump in to pretend they're on the level. In the 1960s this meant cruel coaches who will use military training. Today it means online bullshit classes. The competition will only get more fierce, and drive more programs to put more value on football.

The reason things are so extreme right now is the leadership at the NCAA wants it that way. They've gone full Soviet, right down to working with the black market to keep their thing going. Mark Emmert came right from the dirtiest part of the SEC. Gene Smith is the guy in charge of the Committee of Infractions. The wolves are running the hen house. But they're all making so much money off this that the people in charge don't care about changing the system.

It's very self-serving. Michigan fans want a system where Michigan's football and academics put us in an elite situation. Ohio State is the realist; they saw where things were going 20, 30 years ago, and made sure they'd be the best at it.

MGlobules

December 5th, 2019 at 1:49 PM ^

A super-league is likely coming, but that leaves out much of the college football world. Truth is that money is killing college football, and nothing is going to fix it. Being more honest or above-board about it only takes us a very short way.

And although we like to talk about unfairness the truth is that college football was never fair. Michigan has dozens of advantages in attracting candidates; we just don't offer the financial inducements that a small handful of schools ever more brazenly do. . . do.

MGoStrength

December 5th, 2019 at 2:22 PM ^

why would players go if there isn't as much money to be made?

I agree with your overall sentiments, but the money to be made by players is in the signing bonuses, not in the yearly salaries.  For example, Oregon St.'s catcher Adley Rutschman was the #1 overall draft pick in last year's draft by the Orioles.  He makes a modest salary as a 1st year player in Single A player...probably somewhere in the $20-$30k range.  But, the real money to be made in the minor leagues is through signing bonuses.  He made over an $8 million dollar signing bonus.  The top HS player got a $7.7 million dollar signing bonus.  So, there is potential for top HS players to make multi-million dollar signing bonuses and spend 2-4 years (the same as the amount of time in college) and get the MLB as a millionaire instead of having to go to class and be poor.  This would probably only apply to top 20 HS kids, but that would equate to most of the 5-star talents.  But, no one will come to your games and watch you play whereas 100,000 people will go watch UM games and they'll televised on national TV.

Mpfnfu Ford

December 6th, 2019 at 12:15 PM ^

I don't know how you expect any org like the NCAA to tell colleges, many of whom offer dozens of majors and grad programs for students online, that those same programs aren't applicable for their athletes.

The online class thing is shaking your fist at a thing YOU don't like about modern universities and then being mad that athletics has this tangential relationship to them. It's incoherent. If universities are allowed to have online classes and none of their accreditation orgs have a problem with it, why on earth is it a big deal for athletes, who have the most valid reason in the world of any one to take them, to take them.

Darth Saedd

December 6th, 2019 at 2:16 PM ^

I couldn't agree more and Michigan should be taking advantage of this "loophole" as well.  IMHO much like the trips abroad, if it is not against the rules to do so, why not do take advantage of the rule to its fullest?  Most of the advertisements that I see for universities with online course are aimed at busy adults who may wish to further their education from home.  Adults that have many restraints on their time such as jobs & families.  Who else has a demand on their time equivalent to a working mother?  Division 1 college athletes!  As long as the same online classes are offered to the regular student body(looking at you UNC!), I do not see any moral conundrums in Michigan offering the same competitive advantages to their athletes as well.

True Blue 9

December 5th, 2019 at 1:07 PM ^

Another note on the Louisville game that got some coverage that is annoying me: DDJ's bulletin board material around wanting 'smoke' (which, by the way, I didn't know was a thing. Ok boomer to myself apparently!)

Hopefully he learned the lesson that there's no need for that kind of stuff and it only fires up the competitor. All of that is fine but you better be ready to back up that talk. DDJ ended up with 2 points in 19 mins of play.....just sayin'. 

MGoBlue96

December 5th, 2019 at 2:07 PM ^

I would like to see some numbers on how many UM fans sold their tickets to Buckeye fans. We heard that OSU had returned some of their allotment before the game and we thought that was a good sign, but they clearly returned them because they bought better tickets from UM fans. Like I get why you might sell your ticket as UM fan, but is it really that hard to not sell them to a Buckeye?  Seeing so much red in the stadium is getting grating and I can't imagine it feels good when the players come out and see that. Not that it would have made the difference in the game, but it just shows how shit some of the fanbase is right now.  If you don't want to support the team in person at least give a damn enough to do the bare minimum to make sure it is still an actual home advantage.

crg

December 5th, 2019 at 2:18 PM ^

Before lobbing ad hominems at the ticket holders, some perspective is needed - this game is scheduled during the Thanksgiving holiday and is a pain for people who are out of the area visiting family during that time.  Yes, if season ticket holders can't make it they should ideally sell their tickets to another UM fan, but that is not always easy to ensure.  Plus, when the holders can put their tickets on stubhub and sell x2 - x4 of face value (even after fees are taken out), what do you think most people will do?  If people want better home crowd turnout (especially from the students), then make the game more convenient for them to attend.

HarboSchembaugh

December 5th, 2019 at 2:37 PM ^

Then I wonder how they manage to make that toilet bowl down south a sea of red whenever we play them on Thanksgiving.  Face it.  Michigan fans in the stadium are terrible. They have been for a while.  They don't care enough to not sell tickets to Buckeyes, they don't care enough to show up for a game on Thanksgiving, they don't care enough to be loud when they do show up.  Its pathetic.

 

On another note, it might be a state of Michigan issue.  There's lots of MSU fans, so that cuts into having the entire state show out for us.  Just another reason to hate those idiots.

jmblue

December 5th, 2019 at 2:57 PM ^

They make it a sea of red because too many Michigan fans have dealt with hooligans in Columbus and don't want to come back.  We don't treat visitors that way and it results in more OSU fans wanting to come here than vice versa, all else equal.

The situation is now magnified because of the current losing streak.  It wasn't nearly like this when we were winning against them, as fewer Michigan fans were selling their tickets. 

Regardless, Harbaugh is 30-2 in home games not against OSU.   The idea that our fans never generate a homefield advantage is overblown.  Even Saturday it got pretty loud at times, despite the score.

nMkaczor

December 5th, 2019 at 3:17 PM ^

This is absolutely true. The difference between Home Team Michigan and Away Team Michigan is night and day. I haven't missed a home game in years and the MSU game this year was one of the loudest games I've ever seen there. Visiting teams vastly under-perform their averages at Michigan Stadium.

yossarians tree

December 5th, 2019 at 5:40 PM ^

I absolutely fucking hate that they switched from the 3rd Saturday to Thanksgiving, when all the students (whom this is supposedly all for) have gone home for the weekend. It's just another money grab. It should go back to the 3rd Saturday, and if the fucksticks say we have to play another game the following weekend, so be it.

Kilgore Trout

December 5th, 2019 at 3:53 PM ^

I get the frustration with the red. As a season ticket holder in section 22, I didn't see much near me for what that was worth. As the crowd started thinning out once the ass kicking was in full steam, the red stayed and it looked worse. 

But, when Michigan decided to try to pull every last penny out of their season ticket holders, they lost the right to complain. Treat your fans like customers and they will eventually make business decisions. Just because you can charge insane prices and PSDs, you don't have to. Just because you can gouge people at concessions, you don't have to. In fact, the Atlanta Falcons have shown that you can actually make more money by cutting concession prices. 

MGoBlue96

December 5th, 2019 at 3:58 PM ^

I would agree concession prices are out of control, but if the season tickets themselves are too expensive I would argue people should just do what people normally do in that situation and drop them. There is a waiting list of people who want season tickets, why not step aside and let the people who think they can afford them have them instead? I mean I know some season ticket holders who sell almost every game on the schedule, can you really say you can afford/are a season ticket holder if you have to sell almost every game?

Ty Butterfield

December 5th, 2019 at 7:15 PM ^

I went to the game because my dad got two free tickets. Guy said he was sick of OSU winning but didn’t want to sell them on stub hub because they would most likely be purchased by OSU fans. I was also able to go to the game against Staee. It was the fewest Staee fans there in a long time. It was beautiful. 

Billmunson

December 7th, 2019 at 3:15 PM ^

Grad students without any allegiance to Mich buy tickets and sell every ticket for a major profit. End of story. Instead of sending the team to Europe, Africa, Brazil, rich guys who bleed Maize N Blue buy these and sell to true Michigan fans who can pass a background check. Sounds ridiculous? Suggestions? 

nMkaczor

December 5th, 2019 at 3:13 PM ^

Hard to blame students for not showing up when none of the current undergrads have ever seen a win over Ohio State while in school. Heck, if you're an undergrad now you haven't even seen a *close* OSU game in the Big House unless you are a 7th year senior. Anyone under the age of 25 has been conditioned to associate Ohio State games with anguish and/or disappointing boredom.

Notre Dame games? Those are exciting! MSU games? Fun! Any highly ranked team not called Ohio State that has come to Ann Arbor since 2015 has been a pretty exciting experience win or lose. Students show up for those even when it's pouring rain or freezing cold.

It also doesn't help that The Game is at noon on the Saturday after Thanksgiving now, which means students from out of state have to travel halfway through their break in order to get back to campus in time to attend.

MGoBlue96

December 5th, 2019 at 3:42 PM ^

Regardless of the reasons why  it still creates yet another advantage on top of everything else for OSU right now. UM gets an extremely hostile road environment every other year, while OSU gets a neutral site bowl game experience. And the argument here is not that the timing might mean some people can't use their tickets or that they may not want to go expecting bad things to happen, that is understandable, the argument is if you are going to do that at least exert a little effort to not sell to an OSU fan. The waiting list is long for UM season tickets, there is really no excuse for not being able to find someone who would be willing to buy the tickets if you live in the state of Michigan. If you can't find anyone to buy them, ok, but I guarantee  that is not what  happened in most of these cases. It was someone selling on the secondary market with no regard for who they were selling to. 

Compare and contrast the UM/OSU game with Auburn/Bama, Auburn wasn't playing for anything either and their odds of winning going in weren't great either but you did not see a stadium filled with half Crimson. 

uminks

December 5th, 2019 at 9:42 PM ^

I thought the road game at IU had louder UM fans then the home game against OSU that I spent $$$ to keep buckeyes out of the big house. They were all over the place, even right next to me. They were cheering their asses off and I felt like clobbering them, but never did. The OSU fans have it easy in the Big House.  The last time I went to Columbus in 2000, I had bucknuts throwing punches at me on my way out of the stadium, since we beat them pretty good. I had to swing some punches back just to get out of that fucking stadium alive. I'll never go back, since they are crazy and I cannot fight a bunch of idiots and end up in jail, since I could lose my job and it is not worth it!

JJJ

December 5th, 2019 at 11:09 PM ^

Didn’t Louisville just commit the most heinous NCAA and for that matter ethical violations in the history of college basketball?? How are they #1 again already? Chris Webber took a loan from a family friend and Michigan basketball took a major hit and was irrelevant for at least 10 years. Meanwhile an OSU football player takes a loan and sits out 2 meaningless games. What is going on here?

nickinCA

December 6th, 2019 at 11:20 AM ^

Its nice to hear Sam, Craig and Ed discuss the game and go over went wrong.  Between the pod and the roundtable, Brian sounds more like a sparty with the classic sparty response to football conversation -- "Football?  We're a basketball school, lets talk basketball!"

NJWolverine

December 6th, 2019 at 11:40 AM ^

I'm sensing a "holier than thou" attitude here without much by way of factual analysis.  Do we know how many of their players besides Fields take online only classes?  Do we know how many of our players take regular classes and get real degrees instead of general studies degrees and taking classes with Hagen?  You're extrapolating from one example without knowing all the facts. 

Also, I don't blame the fans.  They could sense what was coming and it happened.

Billmunson

December 7th, 2019 at 3:38 PM ^

Who is this guy who comes up with what he thinks are clever quotes that absolutely nothing to do with the conversation?