Three And Out Takes: Carr, Rodriguez, Martin

Submitted by Brian on October 26th, 2011 at 2:14 PM

imageSo. It's out.

I'm impressed with the large numbers of people who seem to have already blazed their way through Three and Out. It took me a while. I stopped for a few days after "Honeymoon from Hell" because it was too depressing; every chapter featuring a game I knew they'd lose spectacularly required a little bit of willpower to start.

But I'm done and a large number of you are done. It is time to talk the turkey.

We've got this document. What does it say about major players in the saga? I was planning one part here but this got long, so today we'll cover Carr, Rodriguez, and Bill Martin, with various players with less prominent roles in the story covered in a post tomorrow.

Lloyd Carr


It says a few things about Lloyd Carr that are not nice, and implies more. Bacon's said he left a lot of things out that he could not get multiple sources on, which is both his responsibility as an actual journalist and horribly frustrating.

The main strikes:

  1. Informing his former players he would sign any transfer papers they wanted at his meeting with them after their bowl game, a marked contrast from the Bo-Bump transition.
  2. Telling Mallett he "needed to leave".
  3. Having zero control over his former players, or—worse—tacitly endorsing their behavior by not jumping down their throats.
  4. Offering something short of the fiery defense Bo would have launched once the program started taking fire.

That's aside from the state of the roster when Rodriguez took over, which wasn't specifically directed at the new man.

Those seem like major strikes. Screw it: those are major strikes, particularly #3. I find it inconceivable that Eric Mayes would made it thirty seconds into the embarrassing "we own this program" speech before Bo burst from his chest like a Xenomorph. Carr does nothing. Multiple former players trash Rodriguez in public. Carr does nothing. The 2009 golf outing that even guys like Chris Balas* come back from disgusted at, naming specific names of players (Marlin Jackson, Dhani Jones) who embarrassed themselves with their behavior. Is Carr even at it? It's worse if he is.

So, like, whatever. Carr doesn't owe anyone anything except the 400k a year he was pulling down as associate AD. But he's no program patriarch. He's just a guy who used to coach here. His loyalty is to an incredibly specific version of Michigan only. The difference between the Bo guys and the Carr guys is obvious. Bo guys organize a weird counterproductive rally for RR; Carr guys go on MNF and state they're from "Lloyd Carr's Michigan" or storm the AD's office to demand RR's firing after every loss**. There are exceptions, obviously. The trend is clear.

I have no sympathy for arguments the guy is being painted unfairly when he was offered the opportunity to tell his side a dozen times. If history is written by the losers here it's because the winners don't care what the public thinks. They can't be surprised when the public thinks they're not Bo.

Carr did a lot of things for the program but his legacy is significantly tarnished by the pit it found itself in immediately after his departure. It was his lack of a coaching tree, lack of serious coordinators, and lack of tolerance for Les Miles that caused Michigan to hire Rodriguez in the first place. It was his lack of a roster—seven scholarship OL!—and lack of support that provided Rodriguez with two strikes before he even coached a game. We can argue about how much is Carr's fault and how much is Rodriguez's, but figuring out the latter is pointless since RR is gone and everyone hates him. The former is "far too much."

*[By this I mean guys who work for publications for whom access is lifeblood. They're naturally more circumspect. The reaction on premium sites to this golf outing was unprecedented, with people moved to call actual former players out by name after years of dark mutterings.]

**[Not in the book; something I got from a good source.]

Rich Rodriguez

123110_SPT_Gator Bowl_MRM


If you left a goat in the locker room after a Michigan loss and then locked Rodriguez in it for five minutes, you would return to find the walls smeared with blood and feta. There would be no trace of the goat.

Rich Rodriguez was obviously not a stoic guy. His sideline tantrums proved that. The extent of his leg-gashing, table-throwing, goat-cheese-making post-loss hissies is probably the thing that Rodriguez is pissed about. They don't make him look like a stable dude. Neither does his descent into J. Edgar Hoover-esque paranoia, no matter how intent the university was on making that paranoia seems reasonable.

By the time I got through it, my reaction to Rodriguez's portrayal was different than that of the media reviewing the book. It doesn't paint Rodriguez as a guy I would want in charge of my football program. I can deal with one goat-annihilating postgame tantrum a year. Rodriguez seemed to have one after every loss.

So why do most neutral accounts play up the Rodriguez sympathy angle? They do not take the truth that the local media is dominated by agenda-laden twits to be self-evident. When Mike Rosenberg—who comes off as a real winner—bombed Rodriguez with a bunch of half-truths and misrepresentations I bombed back, stating that it was obvious the buyout kerfuffle was university-directed. Surprise: it was university-directed as they tried to get out of their 2.5 million dollar hook. Similarly, Free Press Jihad is re-exposed as a bunch of half-truths at best run by a couple of guys who "had countable hours in there at some point" but had it edited out, no doubt because that's not at all important in a discussion about whether Michigan was more than doubling their allotted time on Sundays.

If you go into the book knowing Rosenberg and Snyder published an embarrassing hack-job and that a large part of the media firestorm surrounding Rodriguez was a combination of University incompetence and the tiny lizard brains of certain folk in the local media*, the main takeaway from the book in re: RR is the sheer height of the plumes his emotional volcano shoots up. I mean, Bacon spends pages and pages on Rodriguez playing up the traditions of Michigan to his players. That's an obvious reaction to the Michigan Man business. I assumed Rodriguez was not an idiot when it came to firing up his troops, I guess, and that stuff shot by me. Beating a bleating ungulate against the wall of the Notre Dame locker room until it bursts into a kaleidoscope of viscera… that stays with you.

I feel bad for the guy. I'm glad he's gone.

*[The rest a combo of Rodriguez never winning any games and his remarkable ability to stick his leg into the press conference bear trap.]

Bill Martin

University of Michigan Athletic Director Bill Martin watches over Thursday afternoon, August 20th's football practice at the Michigan practice facility outside of Schembechler Hall. 
Lon Horwedel | Ann

Good Lord, man. I find it hard to believe that a guy who dragged Michigan kicking and screaming into massive financial success and smoothly hired John Beilein (admittedly after making a questionable hire in Tommy Amaker) was really as incompetent as… uh… I believed he was after the sailboat incident. That's Yogi Berra right there but it's also true.

Here's the the story of the post-Carr coaching search from the perspective of this site:

  1. Kirk Ferentz is reached out to and either is or is not offered; if offered he may have been given an offer that was a paycut. Ferentz fades but it seems like there was truth to the rumors.
  2. Flailing. Miles heavily discussed. ESPN reports Michigan contacts him after Ferentz falls through. They agree to wait until the SEC championship game is over. LSU boards buzz that Les has told his team he's out. I would be "surprised if it was not" Miles.
  3. Infamous ESPN report.
  4. Sailboat. "Have a great day." Sailboat.
  5. Conclusion reached in the aftermath is that M "essentially passed on Miles."
  6. Tedford and Schiano now start getting thrown around along with odder names like Grobe and Pinkel. Also some guy named Hoke. So much Hoke.
  7. Kirk Ferentz momentarily back. Then gone.
  8. Schiano talked to, offered, accepts, changes mind, offered again, says no.
  9. Sean Payton!
  10. Miles again! Seriously!
  11. Miles out again.
  12. Jim Grobe. Jim Grobe does not get an exclamation point.
  13. KC Keeler! Lane Kiffin! Seriously!
  14. Rodriguez out of nowhere.
  15. Sigh… Peanut Butter Jelly Time.

It seemed like a clown show, and behind the scenes… clown show. Martin wants Dungy, has no idea if Dungy—who is a broadcaster and can be contacted by anyone at any time for any reason—will take the job. Wants Ferentz, has no idea that the president of the university will stab him if he hires Ferentz. Wants Miles, has no idea that Lloyd Carr will stab him if he hires Miles. Somehow misses on Schiano, then has Rodriguez fall into his lap and grabs him before anyone can think about it, which sets up the whole buyout fiasco the media will spin for six months. The sailboat incident is even worse since Bacon asserts one of the main problems was Martin had a new cell phone and didn't know how to use it.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh /dies

Martin himself drops out of the story shortly thereafter, which is another indictment of the guy because what enters is a vast institutional incompetence that starts the Rodriguez media cockroach katamari rolling. Everything from the buyout to the Dorsey situation is mishandled not only by Rodriguez (sometimes not even by Rodriguez, as with the buyout) but by the people who should be telling him what is and is not possible. When Rodriguez went to bat for Dorsey with a guy in admissions the guy in admissions should have looked at the guy's transcript before saying yes, and then when he did look at the transcript he should have said no.

Instead we actually sign the guy—opening us up to the most cynical and loathsome of all the lizard-brain media attacks—only to find out he is nowhere near eligible. And don't get me started on the CARA forms, which was a special brand of idiocy all on its own. Martin did a lot of big picture stuff very well, but he was totally unprepared to fix a department that had started downhill long before he arrived.

For all the crap I give Brandon about his failure on big picture stuff, he cleaned out the deadwood with alacrity.

TOMORROW: Players, reporters, me/us(!?).


mad magician

October 26th, 2011 at 3:56 PM ^

It is almost certain that as a recruiter Carr sold elite prospects such as Ryan Mallett and Justin Boren on Michigan being a vehicle for them to realize their NFL ambitions. They were signing up for a pro-style program, one which was dismantled with the hiring of Rodriguez and the implementation of the spread offense. This is not what those kids signed up for-- so why is such an unforgivable crime that Carr would not impede their departure? 

And as I recall, no one transferred before January 2nd, when Carr officially stepped down and thereby relinquished the authority to sign transfer papers. 

So his sin in this matter is... giving reasonable career advice?

One further note: can we not invoke Bo? Bo is dead, and what a worthless exercise it is to assert how he would have responded to the transition (besides, we all know if Bo were alive Miles would have ended up the coach after Bo forced he and Carr to reconcile).

Lest we forget, Bo and Lloyd had a decades-spanning working relationship which evolved into a deep, personal friendship. To speculate on their contrasting office-politics is really reckless, and probably offensive to each man. 


October 26th, 2011 at 3:57 PM ^

The choice you're suggesting that Lloyd had to make - either choose what was best for the University or what was best for his players - is both false and stupid.

Lloyd reasonably could have told his players that they should recognize RR was bringing in a new system, and that they should talk to RR and seriously consider whether there would be a place for them in the new coaching regime. Lloyd could have advised them that if they were concerned after talking to RR that they wouldn't fit, they should transfer, or at least consider it.

That's apparently not what Lloyd did.  Instead, what he did was advise his players to transfer WITHOUT first talking to the incoming coach.  That was not what was best for his players or what was best for the University. It was what Lloyd felt like doing, apparently because he had some sort of axe to grind.  The notion that he should be praised for it is ridiculous. 


October 26th, 2011 at 4:09 PM ^

Denard, Smith, (all of the little slot WRs), Molk, the rest of the OL (aside from Lewan)... that they are not a fit for Manball and he would accept all transfers?

Is that cool? RR would have been loyal to "his kids" and cared more about them then the school. However, he didn't, and as I recall told the kids to give Hoke and Borges a fair shot.

STW P. Brabbs

October 27th, 2011 at 8:33 AM ^

Honestly, with regard to Mallett I'm a bit torn as to how to think about Carr's actions.  I'm fairly certain that Lloyd (rightfully) though Mallett was a complete asshat, so I don't think it's out of the question to think that he may have been doing Rodriguez and the program a favor by encouraging him to leave.

Let's not give credence to all the idiots that said 'if Rodriguez hadn't chased Mallett out, that definitely would have been a different season.'  Bullshit.  Maybe 1 or 2 wins better, but I bet there would have been some truly ugly shit in that locker room had Mallett stuck around for a losing season under a new coach (and Barwis!  Can you imainge Mallett working under Barwis!  He might literally have been fed to the wolves!)  Even on the field, Mallett had poor footwork and idiotic decision-making, so I don't think he would have made very much of a difference in Rodriguez's offense.

This is not to excuse Carr of heinous shit if such heinous shit indeed went down (though my second-hand impression is that these things are not as clear-cut as Brian's reading of them suggests.)  But in terms of Mallett:  just like it was when people waved it in Rodriguez's face, that shit is just a lot of sound and fury signifying fuck all. 


October 26th, 2011 at 3:12 PM ^

Lloyd Carr

-First National championship we've had in a long time.  Did Bo win one?

-6-7 (correct me if I'm wrong, off of memory) vs OSU, 10-3 vs MSU, 5-4 vs ND

-Lead speaker when Bo passed

-Was always very active in the Ann Arbor community

-Hall of Fame Coach



Do I really need to continue? 


If you guys want to bash Lloyd that falls on you.  Sleep with it.  As for me, I want no part of it.  


October 26th, 2011 at 3:18 PM ^

Non-sarcastic slow clap.

Thank you for posting this.  See my somewhat longer defense of LC (on totally different grounds) posted right below yours. 

LC did so much for our program over his 13 years, including something that Bo and Mo couldn't - winning a NC.  Sure, that team was stacked, but plenty a stacked team has stubbed its toe on the way to not winning a NC. 

I cannot fathom how, after reading this book and hearing what an absolute WHACK JOB RR was, people still expected Lloyd and others - people who we all rooted for for years - to come out and blindly defend the man.

When RR was here, he had my full support, but he is gone.  I am just shocked at how many people are willing to throw one of our finest coaches under the bus to rush to defend someone who brought us our worst three years in school history. 


October 26th, 2011 at 3:30 PM ^

I'm about 3/4 through the book and I'm wondering where you get "whack job" from?  It was obvious that Rodriguez had a temper (a pretty new thing for coaches huh?) but other than that I didn't see anything out of the ordinary.

The fact is Lloyd did NOTHING to aid in this transiiton for whatever reason.  I don't care about offering to help players that wanted out, they would've left one way or another.  But showing any public or private support probably could have helped a great deal.

I'm not saying Rodriguez should still be the coach or that it would've been totally different but I find the higher ups at Michigan equally culpable for the hit Michigan's program has taken the last 5 years.


October 26th, 2011 at 4:24 PM ^

My take, even though I acknowledge that no one asked, is that no one has clean hands here.  I was in school during the Moeller/Carr transition days and feel very closely attached to those two guys as being the coach of the teams I watched in person every football saturday.  As such, Lloyd Carr was always a great coach and mentor in my eyes, just as Bo was to those who grew up with him more so than I did.  Lloyd was always going to be a hall-of-famer in my eyes and the National Championship I got to experience was amazing. 

That said, I think its pretty obvious from the book and insider comments that Lloyd was not perfect.  I guess the only thing I have to add is a little perspective in that just because Lloyd may (or may not) have hindered the transition it does not mean that people do not appreciate Lloyd's contributions to the university.  If anything, it makes him human.

The real question is how much did Lloyd know about Rodriguez before he was hired.  If he had first-hand or at least very reliable knowledge that he was a bad fit, maybe his failure was not voicing that more loudly before the hiring.  If, on the other hand, his assessment was simply that Rodriguez was an outsider with a completely different approach to coaching, Lloyd should have at least helped ease the transition like everyone leaving a job does for their replacement.  Could any of you imagine that you would not help the new guy get settled into your old position if you voluntarily left your job???  I sure couldn't.  I would work hard to make sure he was up and running by my last day.  For this I think Lloyd must share some blame.  But, that said, it doesn't mean that Lloyd's tenure at Michigan should be decided or even seriously tarnished by this failure!  Quite the contrary!

STW P. Brabbs

October 27th, 2011 at 8:53 AM ^

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned (and feel free to give me the Bolivia treatment if it has - I haven't been exhaustively keeping up with these threads) is the way that Rodriguez spoke about the situation he inherited and the coaches that came before him.  I remember a few of the early press conferences (not the intro, I don't think) where Rodriguez said things about players having to adapt to working a little bit harder than they were used to, and that some of them had maybe gotten a little bit comfortable.  He also - and perhaps deservedly - all but bluntly stated that the strength and conditioning program was a joke when he got there. 

There are two points to make here:  first of all, as a head coach you just don't do this shit.  I don't care that Gittelson was a neaderthal - he had paid his fucking dues to the point where you say the politically correct thing if you have to say anything at all about the previous regime.  This is a guy who'd devoted the better part of his adult life to Michigan football, you just put him out of a job, and now you're implying that he was doing a shiit job while he was here.  I don't care if the shitty job part is true, you don't pull that shit.  And in terms of insinuating that the previous coaching staff, including Lloyd, wasn't making players work hard enough - again, even if that had some truth to it, you don't fucking say that publicly (hell, anywhere but in your own home you don't say that shit.)  This is the darker side of Rodriguez's apparent naievete with regard to press conferences - not only was he honest to a fault, sometimes that honesty showed self-preservation instincts that outweighed his concern for the program (see: Vince Lombardi couldn't do much with those guys.)  Seriously, contrast the way Rodriguez spoke about the staff that preceed him with the unfailingly respectful (if often vague) way that Hoke et al. refer to the Rodriguez regime.

Secondly, as much as I think Rodriguez really fucked up in that regard, it's still not excusable for Lloyd to take umbrage and then go on a personal vendetta against Rodriguez, if that's what actually happened.  On one hand, I think the shit Rodriguez said in press conferences was indicative of some larger flaws he has as coach. But on the other, I firmly believe in the attitude that there should have been more public support from Lloyd for Rodriguez, even if privately Lloyd had to take him aside and explain some things to him. 

In the end, I think Lloyd's epic stubborness explained some of the great things about him - commitment to beliefs and values, etc. -  and some of the uglier things about him as well.  (Not to mention the fucking fullback shuffle.)


October 27th, 2011 at 11:21 AM ^

But how Bacon could be around the program, and not hear any of these things, if not from Rich himself, but at least from all these people who told him "Lloyd never liked Rich" that one of the reasons was the badmouthing of the prior regime and what he was left with, both publically and privately, he must have been wearing blinders, or decided to not include it in his "thousands of unpublished pages". But it's an interesting choice, considering how many things he's open to insinuating in the book, but others (like Miles) are off limits.

It doesn't make anyone the good guy....but Bacon certainly tries to paint it that way.


October 26th, 2011 at 3:25 PM ^

If losing record vs OSU and lead speaker at a memorial are so high up on your list I'm not sure what you are proving.  Lloyd absolutely has done some wonderful things but why should that absolve his role in what has happened to the program that gave him every one of the things you mentioned?  

coastal blue

October 26th, 2011 at 3:38 PM ^

Won a national championship in his third year when the majority of the guys were brought in by GM. 

He tailed off dramatically in the games that matter (OSU, Bowl) going 3-11 in those games. Sidenote: LC also benefited from MSU's incompetence. From 2002 to 2007, with Michigan winning all six season, MSU went 33-40 and had four losing seasons. Now, during the RR and Hoke era, MSU has went 32-14 in 3 1/2 seasons. They've already topped their best record from Lloyd era twice and probably will again this season. So imagine the hit LC would have taken had he had to face a competent coaching staff on the MSU sideline under Dantonio.

He also failed to do anything to help Michigan transition after he stepped down. A real "Michigan Man" would have stepped up and done anything he could for the program, the fans and the team, including players he recruited. Instead, he - one of the main people who could have made a difference in keeping shit from rock bottom - just sat back and watched his "beloved program" crumble. 

Anything such as charity work is such a crock in the discussions of all football coaches. They all do good work. If you have the resources and influence you SHOULD be doing charity work. Since my freshman year in college I've donated both time and money, even when I didn't really have it. Let's put it this way: Say I work at a soup kitchen this morning, then come on here and berate someone, acting like a total dick. Just because I do a nice thing in the morning, doesn't mean I get a pass for being an ass on here. 

All in all, he is a good guy who has done a lot of good things, a solid coach and someone who has some serious bitter old man issues. 

Rodriguez....he had some serious problems with handling adversity. I come away from all this not knowing if he was the right or wrong guy for the Michigan job (what if he had stepped in with the 2006 team?) but he definitely came in at the wrong time. He was on the backfoot from the beginning, but plenty of times coaches have stepped into poor situations and dragged themselves out in better fashion than he did in his three years at Michigan. As was noted, whenever Michigan needed to win a game, he failed and except for a few exceptions, it was usually miserable. You have to wonder though, had UM lucked out against MSU and Iowa in 2009 how things might have turned out...

Bill Martin - LOL. 


October 26th, 2011 at 3:47 PM ^

1.  "Won a national championship in his third year when the majority of the guys were brought in by GM. "

You realize that LC was on Mo's staff and was responsible for recruiting many of the stars of that team?

2.  "He tailed off dramatically in the games that matter (OSU, Bowl) going 3-11 in those games."

Do you know Bo's bowl record?

3.  "From 2002 to 2007, with Michigan winning all six season, MSU went 33-40 and had four losing seasons. Now, during the RR and Hoke era, MSU has went 32-14 in 3 1/2 seasons. They've already topped their best record from Lloyd era twice and probably will again this season. So imagine the hit LC would have taken had he had to face a competent coaching staff on the MSU sideline under Dantonio."

Cause and effect.  MSU sucked under Lloyd because Lloyd OWNED instate recruiting.  By taking ALL of the instate talent, MSU - which, contrary to its belief, cannot recruit nationally - was forced to take our leftovers.  RR allowed MSU to get elite talent that should have come to us, which allowed MSU to get good.  this whole point is a compliment to LC.

4.  "Rodriguez....he had some serious problems with handling adversity. I come away from all this not knowing if he was the right or wrong guy for the Michigan job "

Well, even RR said that it was a poor fit, and even Brian has said that he is happy RR is gone. 

coastal blue

October 26th, 2011 at 4:38 PM ^

I'll give you half of point 1. But if you're saying this, then maybe RR should have been forgiven for a poor first couple of years due to the drastic change his arrival would produce, rather than just a continuation of the previous regime that would occur upon Lloyd taking over? 

Bo didn't get embarassed like we did many times in those bowl games under Lloyd. 

In fact, given that he lost exactly one bowl game by more than a score no matter who he played, it would seem he was fairly unlucky when it came to the postseason. 

Tennessee, USC, losing to a bad Nebraska team, getting handled in 2001 and 2004 by poor OSU teams...

As for the MSU Just no. You're acting as if when a coach takes over the roster starts at zero. If what you are saying is true, then Michigan should have had more than enough talent to beat MSU in RR year 1 and 2. In fact, we wouldn't have been able to see the effects till Year 3 or 4, but those years didn't seem any different than the first two. Of course, if Hoke had won this year, you'd be saying "See, look at how Michigan took charge of recruiting in Michigan and it immediately paid off" maybe there is no point in arguing this with you. 

Finally, RR was a poor fit in 2008. 

However, as I'm saying, we don't know what would have happened had he taken over a Michigan squad that wasn't starting over from square one on offense. Maybe the same thing. Maybe he wins 9-10 games and everything is fine. As it happened, he was a poor fit. 


October 26th, 2011 at 5:07 PM ^

"If what you are saying is true, then Michigan should have had more than enough talent to beat MSU in RR year 1 and 2"

That would be true, if a large number of players didn't leave when RR came to town.  In 2008 and 2009 - the years that you reference - MSU was not good.  They only won 6 games in 2009, and lost to every ranked team that they played.  The fact that they beat us doesn't mean that they were good, it means that we were that bad. 

The effect of RR's poor instate recruiting showed up in 2010 and 2011, years during which MSU has outperformed their recent history.


October 26th, 2011 at 3:13 PM ^

I assume that this will not be a popular opinion, but I am going to go ahead and offer my defense of Lloyd.   I look forward to debating it in the responsive comments:

1.  Transfer papers - Lloyd recruited kids to come and play for a team, a coach and a system.  With his retirement, 2 of those 3 variables were going to change.  Sure, those who stay and the whole like, but if a TE committed to play for Carr in a system that used TEs, doesn't Carr owe it to the kid to say, "look, I realize that you committed to play here, but things changed, and if you no longer want to be here I will let you leave."  I really see no problem in this.  If Lloys had said "look kids, this RR guy is bad news, get the hell out," I would be more upset.

2.  Not defending RR - during RR's 3-year tenure, the volume of former players that came out against RR was staggering.  And, as we now can read from Bacon's account, there were issues with RR.  Even Brian ended his section of this post with:  " I feel bad for the guy,.  I'm glad he's gone."  Perhaps Lloys and some of his former players just realized the problems early on and just feld that he was not good for the university in the long term.  Even if supporting RR would have won us more games, perhaps these guys realized that in the long term, having a Brian Kelly-like wacko in the locker room was not what Michigan should be about. 

A question to those who disagree with my viewpoint:  Let's assume that Lloyd and his former players genuinely do not think that RR is good for Michigan.  They believe that long term, he will take us down a negative path.  Disagree with the assertion, but it is their opinion.  What would you want them to do?  Come on TV and lie - say "I support RR and think that he is the perfect man for the job?"  Personally, one of the things that I most admire about Lloyd is his honesty, so I wouldn't want him to come on TV and say something that he doesn't believe in.  So, having nothing good to say, perhaps he did the honorably thing and, instead of voicing his true opinion, remained silent. 

3.  Blaming LC for his former players' comments:

How can you blame Lloyd for what these guys say?  It is frowned upon on these boards to blame Pacman Jones' bad choices post -WVU on RR, so why blame LC for his players' comments?  Seems like a double standard.  Also, another example to make my point that LC shouldn't be blamed:  Manningham (or was it Braylon?) says on MNF that he is from "Lloys Carr's Michigan Wolverines."  Do we think that LC put him up to it?  If not, what was Lloyd to do?  Could he have called Mario up and said "hey, don't go doing that, it's not good for Michigan."  Sure, but how do you know that he didn't?  After all, Mario only said this one single time - how do we know that Lloyd DIDN'T tell him not to do it again?  In fact, each player that spoke out against RR only made a single comment - how do we know that LC didn't tell those who he maintained a relationship with to cut out the public comments?  What should Lloyd have done, sent a group email to all former players warning them about how to act?  Not realistic, and unfair to blame Lloyd for the opinion  -apparently widely shared - of so many adult men.

Sorry, I just don't blame Lloyd for these things.

The only part of the RR era that I would actually pin on Lloyd was leaving a somewhat empty cupboard.  Of course, if RR had done a better job of retaining players and transitioning (sort of how Hoke kept Denard by running a hybrid offense), perhaps the bare cupboard would not have yielded such terrible results.  But, I am still willing to pin some of that blame on LC.


October 26th, 2011 at 3:31 PM ^

I don't expect the majority of this board to agree.

There are many on this board that would rather defend a guy who broke every record for futility at Michigan, who was a total nutcase on the sidelines and apparently in the locker room, who threw his kicker under the bus in a press conference, who threw his entire defense under the bus in a press conference, who drove out so many players during his tenure - some who he personally recruited - that we were starting walk-ons and freshman at a greater rate than ever before, who got us our first NCAA violations ever (whether minor or not, it happened on his watch) and who basically turned our program from a national power to a laughing stock, than to face the truth.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion. 


October 26th, 2011 at 3:39 PM ^

Good lord it's not about defending Rodriguez it's about getting a complete picture of the epic failure that has been the Michigan football program recently.  If you can't see that the disfunciton extended WAY beyond the coaching staff I'm not sure what you are looking at.  The whole Michigan football family turned itself into a laughing stock and that is the saddest part of this whole business don't pretend it was one man.


October 26th, 2011 at 4:25 PM ^

One win in seven tries against Tressel doesn't feel like national power material (Mack Brown and Pete Carroll beat Tressel twice in limited chances, Danny Hope and Ron Zook both beat him once).  Not winning a major bowl game since the 1999 season isn't the mark of a national power.  Being out of the national title race in September every year for a decade (save 2006) is not the mark of a national power.

Rodriguez didn't piss in the punch bowl at Studio 54.  He's just the poor bastard who showed up right when the party had staggered to a halt.

lexus larry

October 27th, 2011 at 9:23 AM ^

When Drew Sharp tried to fire up BH's introductory presser, asking if "Michigan was still considered elite," Sharp could have followed up the BH "TIM, FGS" answer with your first paragraph...but didn't, because Sharp's a donut-chomping tool.

That paragraph sums up why a wholesale change was desired, and made, eventually...

I'd posbang you +100 if I could!


October 27th, 2011 at 12:13 AM ^

The people to whom you are directing this comment don't recall anything other than the 1997 half-MNC and the 2007 Capital One Bowl where we beat an overrated Florida team.  Nothing negative-- like the Oregon loss (the worst I've ever witnessed at Michigan stadium, easily), or telling Mallett he needed to go, recruiting that punk in the first place, recruiting poorly, etc. -- can be used against Carr.

To these people, we were 2004 USC before Rod showed up and drove off 30 5 star players, caused Michigan's "worst" loss ever to Toledo and then (with Carr loyalist Draper's and Labadie's "help") single-handedly caused Michigan to be sanctioned.

I'm beginning to realize there is no point in arguing this any longer.  Some people can't handle the truth and would prefer to keep their head in the sand.

Let's recognize the disgrace, which was absolutely unnecessary, that Carr, Brandon et al caused Michigan and do the things that have to be done to make sure the school we love is taken out of their hands and entrusted to those who have its best interests' in mind first and foremost, as opposed to their own.