Helpful Readers Help Unravel Gibbons Questions Comment Count

Seth

[Meta: I thought given the nature of subject it was better to break all this off from Dear Diary.]

duty_calls

Duty Calls (xkcd)

In the wake of news that Brendan Gibbons had been [Michiganese for] expelled for his 2009 rape allegation, there has been precious little more information made available, lots of questions raised, and a whole heck of a lot of judgments from people whose expertise=="I'm on the internet!" I'll admit to personally being one of the latter. However, buried amongst over 2,500 comments in Gibbons-related threads have been a few with actual constructive and helpful experiences to better help us understand what went down and why it took so long. A few suggested they had actual knowledge of the specific events and investigation, or second-hand knowledge speaking to his personality and reputation, but all had credibility concerns. Some were confronted and had their posts deleted when they couldn't back it up; those who named their sources stayed up but none really offer anything definitive.

The Timeline

User Erik_in_Dayton posted and has been updating a rather comprehensive chronology of the things not in debate. They are:

  • Nov. 2009-Jan 2010: Alleged rape occurs off-campus, was reported by the Ann Arbor News. Charges not pressed, end of criminal investigation. Another player, encountering the victim's friend, allegedly threatened the victim if she came forth, and this incident was reported to campus police by two other unidentified players. It is unknown what, if any, steps the university or the football team under Rich Rodriguez took at this time. This is the same month Dave Brandon took over as AD.

  • 2011: Rodriguez fired, Hoke becomes head coach in early January. White House decrees universities have to investigate all alleged on-campus sexual assault cases and use a standard of "preponderance of evidence." UM instituted an interim policy complying with this.

  • 2013: Local gadfly Douglas Smith publishes alleged details of the story on his blog "Washtenaw Watchdog" that purport to include information from the police investigation and information reported to the university, and paint a picture of a clear rape and possible intimidation. University finalizes its policy on September August 19 (MLive) . Gibbons informed there's a preponderance of evidence against him on Nov. 20 (prior to Iowa game); he plays. He doesn't play in the OSU game (he wasn't in pads but according to Upchurch's photos he stood on the sideline during the game), and meets with OSCR the following week, 12/4. On 12/19 he is expelled and sometime shortly after the AD's office supposedly becomes aware of this for the first time. On 12/23 Hoke says he won't travel w/ the team for the bowl game.

  • 2014: Proof of expulsion is leaked to and published by the Michigan Daily. UPDATE: After I posted this Mary Sue Coleman clarified that the university's decision did not involve the AD's office.

[Hit the Jump for best answers to the hard questions]

The Questions

User Cold War provided a few more bits of speculation after the WTKA show that conveniently serve as a starting point for addressing the known unknowns. I present those restated as questions, with counterpoints from the board:

1) Is Gibbons guilty?

The AAPD did not charge Gibbons, let alone convict him. On the other hand reported rapes are far more likely to be actual rapes than false accusations. You cannot completely discount the possibility that the accusation is false, because that happens. There doesn't seem to be a strong reason in this case, however, to disagree with the university's preponderance of whatever evidence they have. It is possible that evidence only covers part of the allegations and that the university is limited by the extent of its jurisdiction.

Public opinion is not held to the same standards as a court of law, and the fact that the university expelled him is strong enough reason to believe Gibbons may be guilty despite the lack of criminal charges.

2) Why didn't I read about this on MGoBlog before now?

I can answer for myself only. There were several points at which this appeared on the board. The first was in 2009, did not give the player's name, and I just didn't see it before the mods of those days unpublished it. The first I ever heard of it was 2011, when Washtenaw Watchdog pulled his stunt of handing out copies of the police report and his version of events at a Regents Board meeting, and this trickled out to the board. Actually a mod at that point had already unpublished it; I read the thread to double-check that decision and ultimately agreed with it.

At that time, given the well-established nature of the accuser (Smith), and the fact that Gibbons hadn't been removed from the team or apparently punished by the university or the justice system, there was a strong enough reason to doubt his guilt that it would not have been right to help publicize the allegations.

The second was last August when the gadfly published much of the same on his blog. At that time I discussed the matter with Brian and we determined to lock the thread (which had already gotten nasty) but to leave it so readers could find it and judge for themselves.

There are 280,000 unique visitors who come here every month, and publicizing a rape allegation would permanently damage that player's reputation. "Publicizing" includes publishing an FOIA'ed report of a case where no charges were brought, because far too many people will take the police report as fact rather than as a report. The effect on the accused would be akin to passing sentence, which is not the media's job. To do so without proof is incredibly irresponsible, Daulerioist even.

Lacking better knowledge, we'll trust that the proceedings of the various levels of justice—legal, campus, team, etc.—are functional. The downside is when they don't function properly we may fail to inform you in a timely fashion. The upside is we won't ever ruin somebody's life and then have to walk that back.

This goes for other players mentioned.

3) Did Rodriguez/Hoke/Dave Brandon believe Gibbons wasn't guilty?

…until at the latest, December 19, 2013 or sometime soon after, when there couldn't have been much more doubt? Maybe? This is a question we'd like answered but given the university's standing behind FERPA for even acknowledgement of the reason he was expelled, and it's a good guess their lawyers have made it clear they're not to be talking any more than they have to, I'm guessing it's going to be very difficult to pry those recollections out of them.

Fuller - 8360111600_8b2dcd9aa0_o
With apologies to Keith Stone.

Some readers questioned why Hoke wasn't forthcoming in the latest stages, e.g. did he know before the Iowa game that Gibbons had received his notice but hadn't appealed or spoken to . The university's reported timeline, which notes (at least someone at) the athletic office was informed on 12/19, is quite plausible since the AD's office is purposely kept out of the disciplinary system until a decision is to be announced.

4) Why did it take until 2013 to investigate an incident nearly 4 years old?

It is unclear and maddening, and the subject of the greatest speculation. Apparently, at least on the criminal level, 4 years to prosecute a rape case isn't unusual because of the psychological trauma to the prosecution's lone witness.

The inferral from the university and the Daily is the university's new policy on investigating all sexual misconduct, as an interim policy from 2011-'12 and a policy that went into effect right before the 2013-'14 school year began, created a different standard by which to judge the case and to initiate an investigation.

It is likely that because the initial incident occurred off campus, though it was, according to the police report, reported through university channels, the university didn't investigate it at the time. It seems likely that their first investigation began under the 2013 policy.

The interim policy and the real one are supposedly very similar, so the question remains why wait until September 2013 instead of launching this in November 2011 (when aforementioned gadfly Smith came to the Regents meeting with his letter). We have no lack for lawyers on the board, and many have speculated the university wouldn't take action (on a public case or any case) until it had an established policy, possibly for fear of the legal ramifications of doing so. That is, again, speculation.

The clearest guess to this answer is there was no criminal charges so nothing happened, and if the White House's mandate and the university's subsequent revision of its policy hadn't happened, nothing would have. Hail to better late than never.

5) If the victim wasn't saying anything, how did they proceed anyway? 

This was pulled from MLive's timeline today:

"The new policy does not require a victim to report an incident in order for it to be investigated. Instead, the university is required to investigate all reports of sexual assault regardless of who makes the report. The standard of proof needed is also lowered."

A complaint may initiate a review but—this is important—it appears it may have gotten nowhere without the cooperation of the victim. This may have been widely misreported by us because the guy who worked at OSCR who gave us context earlier left out an important part and later tried to rectify that:

Yes, my apologies for not making that clear in the initial post. The rules on "standing" to file a complaint are a little sketchy when it comes to *institutional* complainants (i.e. there were many occasions when Housing or DPS would file a complaint that perhaps *could* have been filed by a wronged individual but was *also* a transgression against general Housing/University policies). But in a case like this, the complainant would almost certainly be the sexual assault survivor herself. No need to worry about some random student/professor/staff member reading these allegations on MGoBlog and taking it on himself to file and pursue the complaint with OSCR. Sorry again for the lack of clarity on that topic in the initial post, was trying to fit a lot of information in and missed that fairly major point.

Takeaway: even if she didn't start it, it seems likely the victim cooperated in the 2013 re-investigation that led to Gibbons's expulsion.

6) Was there a cover-up by the university or the football program?

There is no evidence for one. The only action the university appears to have ever done to keep back information is claiming FERPA when asked to confirm the reason Gibbons was expelled. There is suspicion because we never saw any disciplinary action until he missed the Copper Bowl trip this year. The injury that kept him out of the Ohio State game is of course called to question. These all come back to "did Michigan try to hide this for the month after the university made its determination?" There's nothing to suggest a four-year cover-up spanning multiple coaches and ADs.

That said, specifically regarding Gibbons missing the Copper Bowl trip for "family matters," I co-sign this byMGlobules:

There's some annoyance on the board at Hoke's characterization of Gibbons's absence as owing to family problem. I share that annoyance--it's a mischaracterization and tends to elicit sympathy when some more sterile characterization would have done. But this remains a fairly small thing, and might have been what Hoke was instructed to do.

Which is a nicer way of saying this by Bando Calrissian. Lying to journalists: meh. Playing it like he did nothing wrong: wrong and unnecessary.

Motive too is a giant stretch. In late 2009 Michigan's season was over and Gibbons was redshirting. He'd be a plurality participant in the worst kicking season in school history the following fall. He was a decent kicker in 2011, by which time Wile was on hand. A scenario where they protected Gibbons to another player for sticking up for him in an epically stupid manner is facially ridiculous.

7) How do I explain this to Sparty/Bucky on Facebook?

If you're being trolled by someone looking to make a rivalry mark stretch as far as possible, ignore or un-friend this person. Rooting for your kicker to make field goals against their team is not an act that mean you condone horrible actions later found to have been committed by that player. Rooting for maximum PR damage to your rival to the point where you don't even care what the facts represent is as despicable as it is typical of RCMB.

8) How do I explain this to human beings with souls?

The legal system failed, and so did the university until years later when they finalized a policy the White House (i.e. the Education Department) told them to put in place in 2011, because prior to that universities routinely failed their students in this regard and most probably still do.

There's a lot that's unclear, and plenty you should hold the university and its athletic department and its football coach accountable for, even if answers never come. A conspiracy to cover up a rape isn't one of those things.

Also, and I mention this because my friend who worked in SAPAC said it needs to be repeated as much as possible: getting intoxicated impairs your ability to make decisions; it does not forfeit your right to make decisions. If you do get someone who's drunk to do something, and when sober they say they wouldn't have done it, you have made them do something against their will. People sitting around joking about "having sex with drunk chicks" constitutes a rape culture.

9) Brunettes?

It sickens me too. FWIW the shirts were taken down long before we found them to be creepy.

Comments

Blue Indy

January 31st, 2014 at 10:04 PM ^

While I understand the use of this classification by the SAPAC, I do think it's a slippery slope to say that any intoxicated person, as a result of being intoxicated, is unable to provide consent to a sexual act. By that definition, Gibbons was also a rape victim since he was under the influence of alcohol and could not have provided consent himself.

The fault lies in the phrase "under the influence of alcohol." There is, obviously, a large difference between being intoxicated and having had so much to drunk that you can't stand up, talk clearly, and/or remember the details of what's transpiring around you.

 

 

 

Njia

January 31st, 2014 at 10:23 PM ^

Of where my views differed from some at SAPAC who would strenuously suggest that women could not be guilty of rape because men hold the power in our society. They would also cite studies (I never saw them so I can't comment on their veracity or the data sources) that suggested most examples of women raping women were in fact, the result of coercion by men. 

I thought these opinions were over the top and I still do. However, I also didn't have their perspective. Several of the women with whom I worked (SAPAC was largely but not exclusively staffed by women in the late 1980s) had either been raped themselves or were close to other women who had been. Most staffed the Rape Crisis Hotline, were often the first people contacted by victims after a sexual assault, and would frequently accompany victims to the hospital ER or clinics. I can well imagine that their views were forged from anger and unspeakable pain. 

Rather be on BA

January 31st, 2014 at 8:20 PM ^

No, that is not rape... 

You are responsible for your actions when drunk.  You get drunk and drive a car, you get a DUI; you get drunk and have sex with someone you otherwise wouldn't have, you have regrets, not a means for rape charges.

DISCLAIMER: Regular sex that is consentual in the moment between two drunk people is very different from sex that occurs when a female is so drunk she can't even forumlate the words "no"...  That IS rape.

Rather be on BA

January 31st, 2014 at 8:17 PM ^

I agree with your second point completely

Taking advantage of, or targeting, a severely intoxicated female is very different from two drunk people having sex, which while consentual at the time, is maybe a bit regretable (for EITHER PARTY) upon waking the next morning.  I (a male) have had sex with someone while under the influence of alcohol that I more than likely would not have if I was sober, but I would never claim I was taken advantage of; being drunk doesn't mean you are no longer responsible for your actions.  According to that same point, a drunk guy having sex with a girl who is so intoxicated she cannot even think or walk is responsible for that choice, and I DO think that constitutes rape.  I understand the issues with trying to draw the line between simply being drunk but cognizant, and black-out drunk- it is not simple, but things aren't always simple...

This is obviously not what happened in Gibbons' case, and his actions are sickening.  I do not mean to defend rape or rape culture, I have family and friends who are victims and take it very seriously, but to label all sex that occurs under the influence of alcohol "rape" is beyond ridiculous to me, and actually pretty insulting to real cases.

 

gbdub

January 31st, 2014 at 6:57 PM ^

See, that's the sort of glibness that gets people defensive and makes a fair discussion on this so damn difficult. Thank you for the upvote, but please don't defend/agree with me like that.

LB

January 31st, 2014 at 7:16 PM ^

the back. If you look closely, you can see that I was not replying to you, and I most certainly did not upvote you. Glib, perhaps, but I'm not going to have a serious conversation about a comment that paints an entire body of people with a broad brush while recognizing the affect that alcohol can have on another group.

Please note that I am not defending sexual assault, I am replying to a totally one-sided, misandronistic comment.

Wendyk5

January 31st, 2014 at 7:19 PM ^

How is my comment misandronistic? I clearly state that both genders lose the ability to reason after consuming alcohol. But anatomically, it's the male who commits sexual assault. Very few women commit sexual assault. No judgment, just fact. Not every man is capable of committing sexual assault, and many find it as repugnant as I, or any other woman, would. But this is a fact of our species. 

GoBLUinTX

January 31st, 2014 at 7:33 PM ^

that both can lose the ability to reason after consuming alcohol, you're also stating that neither party should be held responsible for their actions.  Yes?  In other words, if the woman is intoxicated she is unable to give consent, by the same token a man that is intoxicated would be unable to reason and thus would not understand reluctance or even an emphatic "no".

Is that what you meant to say?

Wendyk5

January 31st, 2014 at 7:55 PM ^

It's the coercion, the forcing of sex that's the crime. Having sex forced upon you isn't a crime. With that said, both are responsible for their inability to reason because of alcohol. But that's not a crime either, so you can't charge the woman with the inability to reason because she's intoxicated. But you can charge the man because what he did was criminal, just as a drunk driver who kills someone needs to be held responsible for his actions. He may be an alcoholic, which is a disease, and I suppose he could argue that in court, but ultimately individuals need to be held accountable for their crimes. 

 

 

Wendyk5

January 31st, 2014 at 8:45 PM ^

I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't in this discussion. If I say the woman needs to watch what she does, I'm blaming the victim. If I say the guy bears more responsibility because of the nature of the crime itself, I'm putting forth a double standard. 

GoBLUinTX

January 31st, 2014 at 9:00 PM ^

by treating both parties as having equal standing as it relates to voluntary intoxication.

I'm not even going to attempt to rehash what transpired in 2009, but I will say that unless there is a trial of fact with competent triers of fact and cross examination of witnesses and evidence, to say she was some kind of drunken trollop or that he is a scumbag rapist, serves nobody and nothing but personal agendas.

Wendyk5

January 31st, 2014 at 9:16 PM ^

I actually don't think either. But I would have to assume that because he got kicked out of school, it wasn't a case of consensual drunk sex, and then she changed her mind the next day.

 

My comments haven't been that inflammatory - pretty standard issue in the debate of what constitutes rape and date rape. And my initial comment - the one that started all this  - calls out both men and women equally in having responsibility for their drinking. I feel the woman is equally responsible for getting herself drunk. If she says yes, even a drunk yes, I think it's a tough case to prove (unless he plied her with alcohol or slipped something in her drink - malicious intent). But what if he's not nearly as drunk as her? What if she's so drunk, she can't utter the words yes or no coherently? There are all sorts of gray areas here. 

LB

January 31st, 2014 at 9:11 PM ^

1st paragraph - "males, having sex with a drunk chick, worst possible thing, lowest members of society, miscreants,  and then you go on to include those who are relatively sophisticated and well-read. I see zero mention of alcohol.

2nd paragraph - those women who worked so hard need protection from their actions after they get so drunk they can't see, think or walk straight.

I'm probably reading more into it than you intended, but when you talk to your son, the best advice you can give him is to stay away from drunk females, judging by what I'm reading there.

It stuns me to think that there are males out there who believe that "having sex with a drunk chick" is anything but the worst possible thing you can do. I expect that from the lowest members of the species, the miscreants, but not from those who study hard to get their ACT's above 30, and who are relatively sophisticated and well-read. To have to make it a point - #8, I believe - is saddening and sickening. To have to reiterate what should be as obvious as "don't point a gun at an innocent person and pull the trigger" is just beyond me. 

 

But it also stuns me that women who worked so hard to get their ACT's above 30 will get so drunk that they literally can't see straight or think straight or walk straight - or know who they go home with. My son will get the talk, but so will my daughter. As females, we have to protect ourselves against this kind of thing because society hasn't done such a great job so far. 

Wendyk5

January 31st, 2014 at 9:36 PM ^

I apologize if I was unclear. I meant to call out both men and women equally in all of their drunken ACT- taking glory. This is an emotional subject for me, and I was responding to Brian's point #8. I was surprised that he felt people needed to be reminded that laughing about having sex with drunk chicks created a culture of rape. It caught me off guard. 

nowayman

January 31st, 2014 at 9:34 PM ^

"I clearly state that both genders lose the ability to reason after consuming alcohol. But anatomically, it's the male who commits sexual assault."

If you label the act as one of penetration.  But that's simply a patriarchially skewed view of the act itself in that it depicts the man as the active party and the woman as the passive recipient.  The male sexual organ could just as easily be seen as an item that is enveloped instead of as one that is penetrating.

 

Perhaps you can see how silly that anatomical argument seems when both the participants are the same sex.    

Would you honestly convict one man because he happened to perform the "anatomical" instead of the other way around?  

 

In a case where two drunk people both, drunkenly, consent to sex both parties should be guilty of rape, as neither would be able to give consent but both would be criminally guilty of having sex with a person who was unable to give consent.  

 

Labeling the male the aggressor in a drunken sex episode where both parties are willing participants (in so much as one can consent in that state) based solely on how you describe/see the act of sex is purely semantical nonsense.  

 

 

Wendyk5

January 31st, 2014 at 9:54 PM ^

If both parties are willing participants, there's nothing to discuss.  

But then you have two separate arguments. One, are drunk people capable of consent? And two, what is assault or rape? You didn't include the quote, by the way. about how women can commit sexual assault, but it's overwhelmingly men who do so in our society. Fact. The act of assault requires an initiator to instigate a sexual act upon someone else. Sure it's possible that a woman "envelops" a man against his will, but how often do you think this happens?

 

I don't think I'm off base suggesting that the majority of sexual assaults are committed by men. In gay sexual assault, it's the person who initiates and then carries out the act. I'm not talking about drunk consensual sex (I don't even know how that got into the conversation). I'm talking about the act of assault, which requires one person to carry out an act on another person. It is very difficult for a woman, anatomically, to carry this out. Can it happen? Sure, but it's not common. 

nowayman

January 31st, 2014 at 10:10 PM ^

"I clearly state that both genders lose the ability to reason after consuming alcohol. But anatomically, it's the male who commits sexual assault."

 

I thought you were saying: 'even when both parties have lost the ability to reason the male is still guilty of rape because of how the act of sex works.' 

 

Doesn't look like you actually intended that, however.    

 

So disregard.    

 

/cheers.  

gbdub

January 31st, 2014 at 7:19 PM ^

Apologies for misinterpreting your reply. And I don't think you're defending assault. My point is that Wendy5k's actual position is a lot more nuanced than you paint it, and that's something I just now learned because she replied to my comment.

Personally I find that enlightening and constructive, and don't like when debates about things this important devolve into snarky pissing matches, which is where I was concerned your comments would eventually lead the discussion. ("Flamebait", but not actual flame, to use the old voting terms). 

YoOoBoMoLloRoHo

January 31st, 2014 at 7:15 PM ^

The real travesty in all the BS about Hoke 's choice of words to some meaningless reporter - we lose sight of 2 people who made really bad decisions on Nov 22, 2009 and the real lessons to learn. Why UM doesn't vigorously address on-campus drinking or intoxication, I have no idea. Not a little enforcement, but vigorous. Alcohol impairs decision making. It leads to violence and other acts of endangerment. Should students receive expulsion for driving near campus? It threatens safety. What about arguments or theft while impaired? We have to change the dialogue from who said yes or no between a boy and a girl in a room. What happened before they were in that situation - drinking to intoxication - is the more lasting and concerning lesson.

WolvinLA2

January 31st, 2014 at 7:27 PM ^

To defned the women you're referring to, why does someone's ACT or academic interests matter is whether they should be allowed to let loose on the weekends?  I completely agree that the idea of "I want to have sex with a drunk chick" is awful.  The big problem there is that 18-22 year olds like to drink, and they also like to have sex.  It just so happens that these things end up happening at the same time.  The arenas where college age kids meet members of the opposite sex (in a social setting, at least) also end up having alcohol.  This does not, in and of itself, make any of those people bad people.  

It's your second paragraph I take the most issue with.  So because a girl got good grades in high school and has aspirations means she can't have drinks with her friends?  Sometimes it's the people (male and female) who work so hard on their grades and such that need the release the most.  I don't like rape anymore than anyone else, but I don't think the solution is to tell smart girls not to drink.  

Wendyk5

January 31st, 2014 at 7:42 PM ^

I used the ACT as a illustrator of intelligence, both academic and emotional. Maybe I'm being assumptive, but I would think a young woman (or man) who is headed to a good college has had some sex education - chiefly what constitutes rape or coerced sex. The "no means no" mantra has been so drilled into my head, I would think it's been drilled into everyone else's, too. 

 

Also, there is a distinction between getting drinks, getting buzzed, etc...and falling down drunk. You can have a few drinks and still have your faculties, andhave a good time. But when you get blind drunk - and I've been there - you put yourself in danger. Not just of sexual assault, but of getting hit by a car, or hitting someone while driving, or falling down stairs (my brother-in-law did this at age 48 while drunk and ruptured his spleen). A lot of shit can happen. When I was in high school, I was at a party and a girl passed out in one of the bedrooms. A few of the guys allegedly took turns on her. No files were charged, and it was conveniently swept under the rug. 

taistreetsmyhero

January 31st, 2014 at 10:29 PM ^

"a girl got shit-faced and then a bunch of guys had their way with her. If I had to make one comment on this situation, what would it be?"

The majority of the answers are that the girl should not have been drunk.

You claim that the mantra "no means no" has been drilled into your head. But in reality, the mantra "you put yourself in this situation" is what is drilled into people's head in this country.

 

Wendyk5

January 31st, 2014 at 10:43 PM ^

I don't think that - I think the guys (and I know this to be true as one ended up in prison for something else) are douchebags and criminals, and did other illegal things that I did witness. 

 

I don't personally know many people who would put the blame on the woman who had too much to drink - maybe it's a geographic/social delineation. But I do believe in personal responsiblity and having respect for yourself and others.  

 

taistreetsmyhero

January 31st, 2014 at 10:24 PM ^

with this post, but consider some of the main points from this article (I apologize for the liberal source, it was the most interesting article I could find the other day after looking this stuff up):

 http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/10/29/2844951/link-alcohol-sexual-…

key points:  

most rapists are not your average dude who happens to get drunk and lose control of his judgments. they are instead sociopaths who may be drunk to either enjoy the rape more or find a way to convince themselves that their actions are okay.

most women who are raped have been scoped out by their rapist before they ever start drinking.

most any violent crime involves a drunk attacker and drunk victim. 

 

Wendyk5

January 31st, 2014 at 10:36 PM ^

I buried my lede in that post, and re-reading it, I now understand some of the more heated comments. I was responding to Brian's point #8 in his post, this line in particular: 

People sitting around joking about "having sex with drunk chicks" constitutes a rape culture.

 

My first quite irate thought was, people at U of M do this????? And it went from there. I was just expressing my sadness over the fact that guys laugh about having sex with drunk chicks, and girls get drunk enough to be laughed at. Nothing more. 

Seth

January 31st, 2014 at 10:42 PM ^

Seth's post, not Brian's.

Dammit, people. It's annoying enough when ESPN gives him credit for my stuff; now you guys do it?

Wendy, I was a male University of Michigan student and yes, it is joked about. It is joked about in dorms, in houses, in frat houses, in virtually every setting that sexually inexperienced young men congregate and feel free to talk about all the shit that was always taboo to talk about in high school.

Many think everyone knows they're kidding, some don't realize that. It is a rampant disconnect made all the more difficult to fix because college-aged people are spectacularly resistant (often for good reason) to their elders' moralizing on the issue of sex.

I used to have SAPAC come and talk to our pledges for this very reason. College is liberating, and lots of old mores are thrown out the window as "do it because I said so" reaches its end of usefulness.

Wendyk5

January 31st, 2014 at 11:14 PM ^

I know it's out there, but I'd like it not to be the case in places where I think people are capable of overcoming the baseness of our species (wait - intelligence alone isn't enough?). What you've described is the male domain where women wouldn't dare tread. What happens in the male domain stays in the male domain. And I get that. Football is like that, and Kate Upton threads are like that, and I tread carefully. Everyone deserves their own personal man cave. But this suject is a little more touchy for me. 

Ed Shuttlesworth

January 31st, 2014 at 6:33 PM ^

No, they didn't conspire to cover up a rape, but they did conspire to do nothing to a guy who committed sexual misconduct and a guy who threatened witnesses to the potential crime.

That they did.  They never punished Gibbons (yes, maybe Ohio, but even then he was on the sideline, then banquet) and they never punished the witness threatener.   The football team did nothing to those guys.

So why?  Did they not see the police reports?  Did they not know of the new investigation?  Did Gibbons and the threatener tell them a believable story of their innocence and the lack of veracity in the police reports?

Did -- gulp -- the AD consider in the mix of facts and implications the "well-established nature of the accuser"?

Why?

gbdub

January 31st, 2014 at 6:30 PM ^

I noticed that too, but it's clear from context that the "accuser" he is referring to is the "gadfly", a guy with a known axe to grind with the athletic department, and not the alleged victim.

He should probably change the wording.

TruBluMich

January 31st, 2014 at 6:40 PM ^

He is not talking about the victim, he is talking about the poster.   The use of the word accuser should probbly be changed however to reflect that indeed the accusser was the person posting the information before it was known.

991GT3

January 31st, 2014 at 6:25 PM ^

to rape why wasn't Gibbons punished in 2009. To say there was a different burden of proof standard in 2009 does not make sense. A rape is a rape whether she was under the influence or not. There was clear and convincing evidence then. To exacerbate the situation you have a player threathening the victim (which would tend to confirm the rape).I fear there may have been a whitewash by the AD and University in 2009.

Hoke's role in this though cagey does not rise to a firing offense. What it does do is alert all of us that he is not forthright in dealing with the media or fans. I very much doubt Hoke was counseled to say Gibbons had to go home on a family matter. This was a coverup by Hoke and many of us are extremely disappointed in him.

Blue Indy

January 31st, 2014 at 7:08 PM ^

I disagree that there was "clear and convincing evidence" in 2009. The police report filed presented 2 accounts of the story, both of which shared a number of details but differed greatly in tone and perspective. Given that both Gibbons and the alleged victim were under the influence at the time and known to be friends, it would be impossible to declare whether the incident was sexual assault or not, unless you were prepared to declare one of them a liar. Add to that the fact that she opted not to press charges, and it makes sense that the University did not persue discipline.

A possible explanation for the delay in action (in addition to the changes in policy) is that the alleged victim, who is very active in the university's campaign against sexual assault and their policies regarding investigations, may have waited until 2013 to devulge more detailed information on her own personal experience with sexual assault.

 

Shop Smart Sho…

January 31st, 2014 at 7:40 PM ^

When do the victim and perpetrator ever have stories that match up?  And is it terribly surprising that a woman on an athletic scholarship backed off when threated by a man mountain from the most prestigous sport on campus?  

They physical evidence in her medical examination is pretty damning.  That alone should have been enough for something to happen.

BiSB

January 31st, 2014 at 7:55 PM ^

Is a huge, huge thing. There's a reason the Department of Education mandated this change: it makes a gigantic difference, especially in cases like these in which a defendant/accused can raise SOME doubt.

Look at OJ Simpson. He won the criminal trial but lost the civil trial, largely because a criminal trial has a higher standard of proof. 

AtmoGuy

January 31st, 2014 at 6:30 PM ^

Question #1 asks,"Is Gibbons guilty?" But that may not be specific enough of a question. It is entirely possible that he is guilty of behavior bad enough to get him expelled, but not "guilty" of a crime -- either because his conduct did not meet the elements of the crime or because of the difficulty of meeting the burden of proof necessary in criminal cases. Not all bad behavior is a crime. And just because he was expelled does not mean he would have been found guilty of a crime or even charged -- even if the alleged victim had cooperated. It seems to me that this distinction might be important in evaluating the conduct of the athletic department, coaching staff, etc.

991GT3

January 31st, 2014 at 6:40 PM ^

is the first and only explusion by the Board. The facts must of been compelling and Gibbons did not contest the expulsion.

BTW, I understand he had already graduated before his expulsion. Does he get his degree?

AtmoGuy

January 31st, 2014 at 6:51 PM ^

Even if this is the first and only expulsion, the revised policy is only a few months old. It is possible that there will be a handful every semester going forward, expecially in the number of reported incidents rises. That he is the first does not mean his case was a slam dunk. Or even if the facts were compelling enough to clearly warrant expulsion that they constitute a crime.