Helpful Readers Help Unravel Gibbons Questions Comment Count

Seth

[Meta: I thought given the nature of subject it was better to break all this off from Dear Diary.]

duty_calls

Duty Calls (xkcd)

In the wake of news that Brendan Gibbons had been [Michiganese for] expelled for his 2009 rape allegation, there has been precious little more information made available, lots of questions raised, and a whole heck of a lot of judgments from people whose expertise=="I'm on the internet!" I'll admit to personally being one of the latter. However, buried amongst over 2,500 comments in Gibbons-related threads have been a few with actual constructive and helpful experiences to better help us understand what went down and why it took so long. A few suggested they had actual knowledge of the specific events and investigation, or second-hand knowledge speaking to his personality and reputation, but all had credibility concerns. Some were confronted and had their posts deleted when they couldn't back it up; those who named their sources stayed up but none really offer anything definitive.

The Timeline

User Erik_in_Dayton posted and has been updating a rather comprehensive chronology of the things not in debate. They are:

  • Nov. 2009-Jan 2010: Alleged rape occurs off-campus, was reported by the Ann Arbor News. Charges not pressed, end of criminal investigation. Another player, encountering the victim's friend, allegedly threatened the victim if she came forth, and this incident was reported to campus police by two other unidentified players. It is unknown what, if any, steps the university or the football team under Rich Rodriguez took at this time. This is the same month Dave Brandon took over as AD.

  • 2011: Rodriguez fired, Hoke becomes head coach in early January. White House decrees universities have to investigate all alleged on-campus sexual assault cases and use a standard of "preponderance of evidence." UM instituted an interim policy complying with this.

  • 2013: Local gadfly Douglas Smith publishes alleged details of the story on his blog "Washtenaw Watchdog" that purport to include information from the police investigation and information reported to the university, and paint a picture of a clear rape and possible intimidation. University finalizes its policy on September August 19 (MLive) . Gibbons informed there's a preponderance of evidence against him on Nov. 20 (prior to Iowa game); he plays. He doesn't play in the OSU game (he wasn't in pads but according to Upchurch's photos he stood on the sideline during the game), and meets with OSCR the following week, 12/4. On 12/19 he is expelled and sometime shortly after the AD's office supposedly becomes aware of this for the first time. On 12/23 Hoke says he won't travel w/ the team for the bowl game.

  • 2014: Proof of expulsion is leaked to and published by the Michigan Daily. UPDATE: After I posted this Mary Sue Coleman clarified that the university's decision did not involve the AD's office.

[Hit the Jump for best answers to the hard questions]

The Questions

User Cold War provided a few more bits of speculation after the WTKA show that conveniently serve as a starting point for addressing the known unknowns. I present those restated as questions, with counterpoints from the board:

1) Is Gibbons guilty?

The AAPD did not charge Gibbons, let alone convict him. On the other hand reported rapes are far more likely to be actual rapes than false accusations. You cannot completely discount the possibility that the accusation is false, because that happens. There doesn't seem to be a strong reason in this case, however, to disagree with the university's preponderance of whatever evidence they have. It is possible that evidence only covers part of the allegations and that the university is limited by the extent of its jurisdiction.

Public opinion is not held to the same standards as a court of law, and the fact that the university expelled him is strong enough reason to believe Gibbons may be guilty despite the lack of criminal charges.

2) Why didn't I read about this on MGoBlog before now?

I can answer for myself only. There were several points at which this appeared on the board. The first was in 2009, did not give the player's name, and I just didn't see it before the mods of those days unpublished it. The first I ever heard of it was 2011, when Washtenaw Watchdog pulled his stunt of handing out copies of the police report and his version of events at a Regents Board meeting, and this trickled out to the board. Actually a mod at that point had already unpublished it; I read the thread to double-check that decision and ultimately agreed with it.

At that time, given the well-established nature of the accuser (Smith), and the fact that Gibbons hadn't been removed from the team or apparently punished by the university or the justice system, there was a strong enough reason to doubt his guilt that it would not have been right to help publicize the allegations.

The second was last August when the gadfly published much of the same on his blog. At that time I discussed the matter with Brian and we determined to lock the thread (which had already gotten nasty) but to leave it so readers could find it and judge for themselves.

There are 280,000 unique visitors who come here every month, and publicizing a rape allegation would permanently damage that player's reputation. "Publicizing" includes publishing an FOIA'ed report of a case where no charges were brought, because far too many people will take the police report as fact rather than as a report. The effect on the accused would be akin to passing sentence, which is not the media's job. To do so without proof is incredibly irresponsible, Daulerioist even.

Lacking better knowledge, we'll trust that the proceedings of the various levels of justice—legal, campus, team, etc.—are functional. The downside is when they don't function properly we may fail to inform you in a timely fashion. The upside is we won't ever ruin somebody's life and then have to walk that back.

This goes for other players mentioned.

3) Did Rodriguez/Hoke/Dave Brandon believe Gibbons wasn't guilty?

…until at the latest, December 19, 2013 or sometime soon after, when there couldn't have been much more doubt? Maybe? This is a question we'd like answered but given the university's standing behind FERPA for even acknowledgement of the reason he was expelled, and it's a good guess their lawyers have made it clear they're not to be talking any more than they have to, I'm guessing it's going to be very difficult to pry those recollections out of them.

Fuller - 8360111600_8b2dcd9aa0_o
With apologies to Keith Stone.

Some readers questioned why Hoke wasn't forthcoming in the latest stages, e.g. did he know before the Iowa game that Gibbons had received his notice but hadn't appealed or spoken to . The university's reported timeline, which notes (at least someone at) the athletic office was informed on 12/19, is quite plausible since the AD's office is purposely kept out of the disciplinary system until a decision is to be announced.

4) Why did it take until 2013 to investigate an incident nearly 4 years old?

It is unclear and maddening, and the subject of the greatest speculation. Apparently, at least on the criminal level, 4 years to prosecute a rape case isn't unusual because of the psychological trauma to the prosecution's lone witness.

The inferral from the university and the Daily is the university's new policy on investigating all sexual misconduct, as an interim policy from 2011-'12 and a policy that went into effect right before the 2013-'14 school year began, created a different standard by which to judge the case and to initiate an investigation.

It is likely that because the initial incident occurred off campus, though it was, according to the police report, reported through university channels, the university didn't investigate it at the time. It seems likely that their first investigation began under the 2013 policy.

The interim policy and the real one are supposedly very similar, so the question remains why wait until September 2013 instead of launching this in November 2011 (when aforementioned gadfly Smith came to the Regents meeting with his letter). We have no lack for lawyers on the board, and many have speculated the university wouldn't take action (on a public case or any case) until it had an established policy, possibly for fear of the legal ramifications of doing so. That is, again, speculation.

The clearest guess to this answer is there was no criminal charges so nothing happened, and if the White House's mandate and the university's subsequent revision of its policy hadn't happened, nothing would have. Hail to better late than never.

5) If the victim wasn't saying anything, how did they proceed anyway? 

This was pulled from MLive's timeline today:

"The new policy does not require a victim to report an incident in order for it to be investigated. Instead, the university is required to investigate all reports of sexual assault regardless of who makes the report. The standard of proof needed is also lowered."

A complaint may initiate a review but—this is important—it appears it may have gotten nowhere without the cooperation of the victim. This may have been widely misreported by us because the guy who worked at OSCR who gave us context earlier left out an important part and later tried to rectify that:

Yes, my apologies for not making that clear in the initial post. The rules on "standing" to file a complaint are a little sketchy when it comes to *institutional* complainants (i.e. there were many occasions when Housing or DPS would file a complaint that perhaps *could* have been filed by a wronged individual but was *also* a transgression against general Housing/University policies). But in a case like this, the complainant would almost certainly be the sexual assault survivor herself. No need to worry about some random student/professor/staff member reading these allegations on MGoBlog and taking it on himself to file and pursue the complaint with OSCR. Sorry again for the lack of clarity on that topic in the initial post, was trying to fit a lot of information in and missed that fairly major point.

Takeaway: even if she didn't start it, it seems likely the victim cooperated in the 2013 re-investigation that led to Gibbons's expulsion.

6) Was there a cover-up by the university or the football program?

There is no evidence for one. The only action the university appears to have ever done to keep back information is claiming FERPA when asked to confirm the reason Gibbons was expelled. There is suspicion because we never saw any disciplinary action until he missed the Copper Bowl trip this year. The injury that kept him out of the Ohio State game is of course called to question. These all come back to "did Michigan try to hide this for the month after the university made its determination?" There's nothing to suggest a four-year cover-up spanning multiple coaches and ADs.

That said, specifically regarding Gibbons missing the Copper Bowl trip for "family matters," I co-sign this byMGlobules:

There's some annoyance on the board at Hoke's characterization of Gibbons's absence as owing to family problem. I share that annoyance--it's a mischaracterization and tends to elicit sympathy when some more sterile characterization would have done. But this remains a fairly small thing, and might have been what Hoke was instructed to do.

Which is a nicer way of saying this by Bando Calrissian. Lying to journalists: meh. Playing it like he did nothing wrong: wrong and unnecessary.

Motive too is a giant stretch. In late 2009 Michigan's season was over and Gibbons was redshirting. He'd be a plurality participant in the worst kicking season in school history the following fall. He was a decent kicker in 2011, by which time Wile was on hand. A scenario where they protected Gibbons to another player for sticking up for him in an epically stupid manner is facially ridiculous.

7) How do I explain this to Sparty/Bucky on Facebook?

If you're being trolled by someone looking to make a rivalry mark stretch as far as possible, ignore or un-friend this person. Rooting for your kicker to make field goals against their team is not an act that mean you condone horrible actions later found to have been committed by that player. Rooting for maximum PR damage to your rival to the point where you don't even care what the facts represent is as despicable as it is typical of RCMB.

8) How do I explain this to human beings with souls?

The legal system failed, and so did the university until years later when they finalized a policy the White House (i.e. the Education Department) told them to put in place in 2011, because prior to that universities routinely failed their students in this regard and most probably still do.

There's a lot that's unclear, and plenty you should hold the university and its athletic department and its football coach accountable for, even if answers never come. A conspiracy to cover up a rape isn't one of those things.

Also, and I mention this because my friend who worked in SAPAC said it needs to be repeated as much as possible: getting intoxicated impairs your ability to make decisions; it does not forfeit your right to make decisions. If you do get someone who's drunk to do something, and when sober they say they wouldn't have done it, you have made them do something against their will. People sitting around joking about "having sex with drunk chicks" constitutes a rape culture.

9) Brunettes?

It sickens me too. FWIW the shirts were taken down long before we found them to be creepy.

Comments

ontarioblue

February 1st, 2014 at 10:58 AM ^

The complete lack of empathy addressed by many towards the victim.  Sarcasm under these circumstances is completely uncalled for.  We are talking sexual assault.  We are talking about events that can devastate a young woman to the point of suicide. Thank god this hasn't happened in this case, but enough is enough.

Brendon Gibbons according to the evidence the University uncovered was expelled.  The University would not make this stance if the evidence was weak or lacking.  I for one, am glad they did this.  They should have done it years ago.  A message needs to be sent to all, NO MEANS NO!  

 

justthinking

February 1st, 2014 at 1:29 PM ^

I think you misunderstood the point I was making. After reading the police report, I was sickened by the events that transpired. I immediately wondered what happened to the woman? After doing my own searching, I came to the conclusion that she turned a painful and tragic event in her life into something positive for herself and for others. It took time, but through her determination and persistence I feel she got a measure of justice in the end. I wasn't making light of the situation, but applauding the one other person on this entire blog who dug deep enough to connect the same dots that I had by bringing up the IWill campaign. Very happy that she didn't fade away into obscurity as many would have under the same circumstances.

MarqueeView

February 1st, 2014 at 1:43 AM ^

MGoBlog needed this write-up, especially the timeline. I was having a hell of a time trying to keep everything straight with all the misinformation out there. Couldn't have been fun to sit down and peck this one out, but I appreciate it.

ca_prophet

February 1st, 2014 at 2:15 AM ^

It seems likely based on other stories that the University investigated in 2009, but could not take any action based on the clear and convincing evidence standard. If that's true, then the answer to your first point hasn't changed between 2009 and today. There might not even be more information, just the same stuff viewed under a different light. Our perception of it has, and that's probably a good thing.

pearlw

February 1st, 2014 at 1:06 PM ^

I raised this point earlier...where is it documented that GIBBONS was INFORMED of the Nov 20th letter/conclusion? I think we all made that assumption but there is no source that says Gibbons was notified of the finding of the document on that date or that any letter was sent on Nov 20th.

The initial daily article talks about a OSCR document with the conclusion. However, it never says it was addressed to Gibbons despite the article being very clear that the other Dec 19th letter was addressed to his home.

Additionally, in the friday daily editorial there is another passage that questions this assumption we made. It notes that the university determined there was a preponderance of evidence, that he played 3 days later, and goes on to criticize the internal communication between OSCr and the athletic department to allow this to happen. The focus seems to be on the OSCR not informing the athletic deparment to it conclusion at that point and doesnt mention a letter being sent.

Summary: In none of the articles, does it refer to the Nov 20th thing as a letter...rather it refers to it as an OSCR document. If you read it closely, it is logical to assume this is an internal document summarizing its finding only. I think myself and everyone somehow moved to concluding that Gibbons was notified of the findings at this time but nothing supports that assumption.

west2

February 1st, 2014 at 9:42 AM ^

the answer to the question "why now" probably will never get answered.  When a rape accusation occurs obviously DNA comes in to play.  If the victim waits for several days then that evidence is gone and it becomes a he said-she said issue that is difficult to prosecute.  Even with DNA-it can become an issue of: hey it was consensual.  Additionally, if the victim won't cooperate then its unlikely that anything will happen in terms of criminal charges.  In addition the details of what happened are also sealed and are not accessable per FOI.  But you always have to wonder why anyone would press rape charges and put themselves through the inevitable public nightmare that ensues.  So why would they be pursuing this now 4 years later?  Sometimes victims go through therapy and come to the realization that they need to confront whats happened to them.  Sometimes new evidence surfaces or another incident arises involving the same person.  Possibly even something that was developing in the locker room with regard to gossip going around causing problems?  Whatever the reason, the university obviously is willing to risk a civil lawsuit by the player and it appears that he is not challenging the expulsion which says something as any opportunity to go to the pros will go right out the window with this action. 

 

I disagree with criticism against the lack of reporting of this as it appears no one knows why they are doing this now and as I said initially no one will likely ever know unless this issue goes to court which doesnt appear to the situation.

IMRight

February 1st, 2014 at 3:04 PM ^

As I say above, this woman has turned this tragedy into a crusade against sexual violence on campus.  She likely felt she had to push for results given her role on campus.  It would be pretty hypocritical to try to get other young women to come forward, if you, yourself, are keeping a secret.  It is my guess that she had a change of heart this fall and  pushed for action.

GoBLUinTX

February 1st, 2014 at 3:26 PM ^

a change of heart and pushed for action, why do you suppose she didn't contact the Washtenaw County Prosecutor and ask about seeking an indictment?  Wouldn't she receive much more publicity for her cause if there was a trial open to the public instead of a secret inquest?

ontarioblue

February 1st, 2014 at 10:44 AM ^

Myself and others have always maintained that optics of the way Brady handled this issue after December 20th was the issue, if that was in fact the day he found out about Gibbons expulsion.  The fact that he did not address the issues factually is concerning.  Is it a reason to fire him?  No.  But I think as a leader of men and a teacher of men, that he blew a significant opportunity to do so on the 23rd when he addressed the media about Gibbons.  In my mind, Hoke looks bad.  He took the easy way out by avoiding the issue.  Leaders lead, teachers teach, Brady missed on both in this case.

west2

February 1st, 2014 at 11:21 AM ^

crucifying the coach here isn't right.   First of all what has been said to the players in private and implying a lack of coaching leadership and whats said in a public statement are 2 separate things.  This incident has lots of ramifications not the least of which are legal ones.  Any statement would have to be very brief and minimal until all the facts are known and they may not be known to the coaches.  If Hoke had said we are suspending Gibbons for suspicion of rape or conduct unbecoming a student-athlete then a barage of questions would follow that he could not possibly answer.  Surely his statement was discussed with administrators and university lawyers beforehand.  Hoke or anyone else affiliated with the team isn't going to make a random comment about this.  Mishandling a press conference here would have devastating effects on Hoke, the team and the university, not to mention the 2 people directly involved.

tybert

February 1st, 2014 at 12:06 PM ^

is when did Hoke ACTUALLY GET NOTIFIED that Gibbons was found in violation of the university policies. 

Someone being investigated only INTERNALLY (i.e., not charged with a crime) by the school is not grounds IMO to suspend a player. Only when the investigation is final and the verdict reached is the time I think any discipline should be taken. I have a completely different opinion on this is someone is charged with a crime - then the facts and circumstances need to be considered.

If Hoke knew about Gibbons' situation before the Iowa game, then I'm pissed. But I don't think he had that info at that time (he may have known that an investigation was underway, but that's all) - simply because good lawyers know how to navigate and manage a crisis like this.

In spite of how crappy this appears to have been handled by the Athletic Dept, I expect that UM's lawyers are top-notch and were in control of all internal discussions and communications, including to Brandon and Hoke. 

FWIW: I appreciate Seth's step-by-step analysis of this situation - even if Gibbons' is never brought up on charges, the guy will be hounded and haunted by this story for a while, and deservedly so. 

remdog

February 1st, 2014 at 2:16 PM ^

First of all, the assertion that reported rapes are far more likely to be actual rapes than false accusations is unfounded.  It's possible but the opposite is also possible.  There's literally just no way to now without trying each case in a court of law.  There are numerous well-publicized cases of false accusations.  Such assertions presume guilt without any chance to prove otherwise and defames the entire male gender.  Secondly, I would also question the assertion that there is no reason to doubt the university's conclusion under the standard of "preponderance of the evidence."  The standard, as often applied, is seriously biased against the male.  By the usual university standards, the majority (if not all) sexually active college males can be presumed guilty of rape.  If both parties are intoxicated, the presumption is that the male is a rapist if the female makes such a claim.  And heresay, rather than objective evidence, can result in this conclusion as well.  Even in a court of law, such biased standards weigh against a male defendant.  Thirdly, there is not adequate reason to conclude Gibbons is guilty of rape.  He has not been tried in a court of law and under the law, stands innocent, as innocent as any other readers here not facing such an accusation.

The process here is seriously troubling for anybody who values justice.  I have no idea whether Gibbons is guilty or not.  The proper arena to make that determination is in a court of law and that is not possible.  If he is guilty, that effort should have been made years ago.   And unless this occurs, I find fault with the university's actions.

Rape is a terrible crime and I wish we were in a world without such assaults on another person's humanity.  But figuratively lynching people in the public square without a fair trial is equally, if not more, terrible. 

Colin M

February 1st, 2014 at 2:58 PM ^

1) There is peer reviewed research to support the claim so it's not unfounded.

2) I really don't see the problem with the university creating its own standards of behavior and expelling students who don't meet them. If I sexually assault my coworker and she doesn't bring criminal charges my employer could still fire me for creating a hostile environment. And they wouldn't need to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

grumbler

February 1st, 2014 at 3:39 PM ^

This is untrue.  The university's own policy states that the respondent is presumed to be innocent unless there is more evidence of guilt than innocence.  The standard is lower than the standard for conviction for a crime, it is true.  But, then, the punishment is lower than that for a crime, as well.

There is always a concern that the fact-finder in cases kept so close to the vest is liable to be influenced by personal beliefs or agendas, but that is true for more all administrative proceedings, like hiring and termination, as well.  In most casees, we have to simply hope that the organziation's leadership is aware of the problem and taking steps to ensure that the process is fair.  The adminstrative process cannot be both fair and public, so there is no public pressure to ensure fairness in any case, as there is in the open criminal tribunal cases.

dsten

February 1st, 2014 at 5:30 PM ^

What crime are you referring to?  This is a severe, life altering punishment in terms of reputation and career.  I'd take a $500 fine or a couple nights in jail (criminal penalties) over expulsion any day.

The federal government compelled the University to punish Gibbons under Title IX.  When the government punishes you for violation of a law, by definition, that means you have been found guilty of a crime.

 

grumbler

February 1st, 2014 at 7:27 PM ^

Criminal law prescribes maximum penalties for various crimes.  I don't know of an actual crime (some some traffic offenses, maybe, but these are not categorized as crimes) which bears a maximum penalty of $500 or couple of nights in jail.

As for "federal government compelled the University to punish Gibbons under Title IX," I'd need to see the document from the federal government naming Gibbons to believe that (I'd maybe accept a quote from a government official to that effect, depending on who the official is).  Barring evidence,, though, I think this assertion ludicrous.

If the basis for your conclusion is ludicrous, the conclusion that Gibbons was found guilty of a crime is equally ludicous.  The only evidence we have indicates that he was actually expelled for violation of the student code of conduct, which isn't a crime.

sbblue

February 1st, 2014 at 4:59 PM ^

has primarily led me to conclude that it is exceedingly difficult to generate reliable estimates. Even if we accept that only 10% or less of rape charges can be coded as false accusations based on review of the evidence, it doesn't necessarily mean that the remaining 90+% were legitimate accusations, a point which is lost in the posts linked by Seth.

MGoUberBlue

February 1st, 2014 at 4:28 PM ^

Of the Internet is displayed by this discussion.  Thanks to the helpful readers for cutting though the bullshit and helping us understand what transpired as opposed to taking the statements of the university something other than devious.

You Only Live Twice

February 1st, 2014 at 11:28 PM ^

The facts are really hard to come by.  Investigations are often carried out by people who don't really have the experience, training or knowledge to do them properly.... and even the facts themselves change.  What do we know?  There is pretty much universal agreement here on what would have been right, or would have been wrong.  And lots of good discussion.  Don't get me wrong sometimes it's quite clear cut what happened, and justice gets done.  The wheels of justice turn too slowly but eventually do turn and justice gets done.  But none of us really know from any of the evidence so far, what happened.  Which leads to what I hope my kids learn.  Any time you get mixed up with "the system" you are at the mercy of that system and its components, both competent and incompetent.  So why take that risk?  If right and wrong are not crystal clear to you... at least think about not being at the mercy of "the system."

Feat of Clay

February 2nd, 2014 at 7:22 PM ^

"If you do get someone who's drunk to do something, and when sober they say they wouldn't have done it, you have made them do something against their will."

I can't speak to today's culture but when I was in college there was a massive amount of cajoling & peer pressure while partying. The amount of questionable and downright stupid shit I did thanks, in part, to the advocacy of my friends and companions is staggering. Much of it was worth regretting in the light of day. This includes doing shots, trespassing, mischief, smoking, and attempting dance moves I had no business trying. It also includes sexual intimacy, and yes I'm female.

Sometimes it's hard to wrap my head around the change in thinking; I wonder if there has really been a change in behavior. Have kids smartened up about peer pressure overall, or at least about the pressure related to sex? Or is it still the same? As a parent of a teen I really wonder. And worry.

HollywoodHokeHogan

February 3rd, 2014 at 10:13 AM ^

           confusing.  If being drunk does not forfeit my right to make decisions, then how come decisions I make when drunk that I wouldn't make sober are not of my will?  I have done, and will do, many things drunk that I wouldn't do sober (e.g. dance, sing karoke, make bad bets playing poker).  That's part of what I enjoy about drinking.  I'm going to take more risks, do dumber stuff, etc.    These are still actions that I undertake voluntarily, provided my getting intoxicated was voluntary.

To see how bizarre this is, consider this case:  Suppose the assaulter is intoxicated (as well as the victim) and he would not have performed these acts if he were sober.  Do we then excuse him, saying he didn't act on his own will?  I sure as hell hope not.  Just because he would not will it sober does not mean he did not will it drunk. 

This might seem pedantic, but I think it's important.  If people with good intentions keep pushing a deeply flawed counterfactual standard of consent, which tracks neither the commonsense nor legal notion of consent, people are going to stop listening.  And that's bad, because there are many cases where people are subjected to non-consensual sex acts.

 

Yeoman

February 3rd, 2014 at 3:59 PM ^

It seems to me it's possible to hold both these opinions:

(1) Intoxicated people are responsible for their actions while intoxicated.

(2) Other people have an obligation not to take advantage of someone that's intoxicated by inferring their consent to something that they have good reason to believe they wouldn't have consented to if they were sober.

How does (2) negate (1)?

HollywoodHokeHogan

February 3rd, 2014 at 11:39 PM ^

            added "inferring their consent" to number 2.   Seth says " if you get someone to do something," and I'm not sure what he means. 

If someone  infers another's conscent and has sex with him/her, then he is a rapist regardless of whether or not the victim is drunk.   Look, even if the victim would have consented if sober but does not give consent when drunk, it's still rape. 

Likewise for Seth's quote, i.e.  If "get someone to [have  sex]", means have sex with him/her without consent, then it's clear that doing so is rape.  But again, whether or not he/she would have done it sober is irrelevant.  Having sex without consent is rape.    Whether you would consent if sober just does not matter.  The issue is whether you actually gave consent.

 

Now things are not so easy as I made them seem.  Someone might be too drunk to give consent and it's hard to formulate a test for when that is. But this counterfactual test won't work for this purpose either.  It treats a person's capacity to consent to sex as dependent on who is asking.  So A can be too drunk to consent to sex with B and at the same time fine to consent to sex with C.  That seems wrong and also dangerous since it is the sort of thinking that underlies disbelief in spousal and date rape.