200 Days: Rich Rod vs. Hoke

Submitted by Seth on July 26th, 2011 at 6:11 PM

 Venting  108007682_crop_358x243

xkcd / Hoke pointing at xkcd / EDIT: which means you should click on it dammit so you will get the point!

This morning His Dudeness posted a throwaway discussion topic for the board comparing Rodriguez's 2009 recruiting to Hoke's 2012. This was taken by some as an attempt to reopen 2008-'10 wounds but really it's another "how many ways can we talk about how awesome our 2012 recruiting is going?" (So so awesome). Anyway this started as a reply to fisk of that thread and ended up at 2,000 words plus charts. Hi, I'm Misopogon, have we met?

It's been almost 200 days since Hoke took the job. That's not much to go on when trying to judge a coach. Basically there's 1) his previous resume, 2) the process of how he was hired, 3) how he built his staff, 4) how he integrates into the program, and then 5) a few months of recruiting. I literally wrote up the first four then figured what the hell would we want to go over that again, so let's skip right to recruiting.

Finishing the Class of…

RRvHokeRecruiting2

Rodriguez additions to Class of '08:

Name Pos State Stars RR Pos Rk Nat Rk State Rk Rec'd By
Michael Shaw RB OH 4 stars 5.9 7 NR 6  
Taylor Hill LB OH 4 stars 5.8 21 NR 16  
Terrence Robinson RB TX 4 stars 5.8 9 NR 34  
Ricky Barnum OL FL 4 stars 5.8 5 NR 37  
Roy Roundtree WR OH 4 stars 5.8 44 NR 17 Bruce Tall
Justin Feagin ATH FL 3 stars 5.7 41 NR 71  
Martavious Odoms WR FL 3 stars 5.7 71 NR 77 Rod Smith
Patrick Omameh DE OH 2 stars 5.1 NR NR NR Bruce Tall

Hoke additions to Class of '11:

Name Pos State Stars RR Pos Rk Nat Rk State Rk Rec'd By
Chris Barnett TE TX 4 stars 5.8 14 NR 32 Jeff Hecklinski
Raymon Taylor ATH MI 4 stars 5.8 14 NR 6  
Antonio Poole LB OH 3 stars 5.7 26 NR 20 Mark Smith
Frank Clark LB OH 3 stars 5.6 NR NR 52  
Thomas Rawls RB MI 3 stars 5.6 NR NR 19 Fred Jackson
Russell Bellomy QB TX 3 stars 5.5 NR NR NR  
Tamani Carter DB OH 3 stars 5.5 NR NR 60 Mark Smith
Keith Heitzman DE OH 3 stars 5.5 NR NR NR Greg Mattison, Mark Smith
Matt Wile K CA 2 stars 5.3 NR NR NR  

This is unfair to judge the coaches against each other. Rodriguez was hired in November and was taking over a Citrus-bound program with a retiring Hall of Fame coach, while Hoke was hired in the middle of January after a blowout Gator loss and following a fired guy. Rodriguez had less time than would have been optimal given the breadth of his transition, but it was no more of a transition than Hoke faces, and RR got a good two months, including the all-important December period, to bring the current class home.

The recruiting is reflected in that. Other than bringing Hill from W.Va., Rodriguez mostly grabbed guys to fit his offensive system. Shaw's a speed-back, T-Rob, Roundtree and Odoms were slot receivers, Barnum and Omameh were the kind of agile offensive linemen who fit best in zone blocking, and Feagin was a last-minute consolation prize when Pryor decided he'd get more out of attending Ohio State. Hoke on the other hand found a handful of Michigan and Ohio State Sad Joshes (Clark, Carter, Heitzman, Rawls, Poole, Bellomy and Taylor), at positions of great need, replaced the kicker lost in the transition, yanked the requisite Purdue recruit (Bellomy) to ensure Danny Hope stays petty, and pulled in a last-minute coup on a national tight end.

Both did okay, not fantastic. Hoke got a kicker back, which was a big deal, but needed to flip someone's 5.9+ OT and pick up another good-to-great linebacker to avoid scary depths at that positions starting in 2012; RR's failure to get more help at defensive back (Carr had Brandon Smith, J.T. Floyd, and Cissoko) would haunt him the rest of his Michigan career (nobody planned on losing 2/4 LBs by next summer). Oh, and, ahem, quarterback.

Recruiting the Class of…

RRvHokeRecruitingall

Rodriguez 2009 recruits as of July 26, 2008:

Name Pos State Stars RR Commit'd Pos Nat State Rec'd By:
William Campbell DT MI 5 stars 6.1 Oct. 2007 5 26 1 (Carr's staff)
Justin Turner DB OH 4 stars 6.0 Mar 28 3 35 1 Bruce Tall
Bryce McNeal WR MN 4 stars 6.0 May 1 10 75 1 Tony Dews
Kevin Newsome QB VA 4 stars 5.9 Apr 24 4 163 9 Fred Jackson
Jeremy Gallon ATH FL 4 stars 5.9 Jun 05 11 NR 31 Rod Smith
DeQuinta Jones DT LA 4 stars 5.8 Jul 21 NR NR 10 Jay Hopson
Shavodrick Beaver QB TX 4 stars 5.8 Apr 29 8 206 24 Rod Smith
Fitz Toussaint RB OH 4 stars 5.8 Apr 18 8 NR 14 Tony Gibson
Michael Schofield OL IL 4 stars 5.8 Jun 16 18 NR 6 Scott Shafer
Teric Jones RB MI 3 stars 5.7 Mar 29 37 NR 12 Tony Dews
Isaiah Bell LB OH 3 stars 5.7 Mar 31 26 NR 27 Tony Gibson

Hoke 2012 recruits as of July 26, 2011:

Name Pos State Stars RR Commit'd Pos Nat State Rec'd By
Kyle Kalis OL OH 4 stars 6.0 Jul 10 4 18 1 Greg Mattison
Royce Jenkins-Stone LB MI 4 stars 5.9 Apr 16 7 87 1 Fred Jackson
Erik Magnuson OL CA 4 stars 5.9 Jun 10 8 34 6 Dan Ferrigno
Blake Bars OL TN 4 stars 5.8 Jun 26 34 NR 6 Mark Smith
Joe Bolden LB OH 4 stars 5.8 Apr 29 16 NR 11 Greg Mattison
Pharaoh Brown DE OH 4 stars 5.8 May 07 20 NR 17 Greg Mattison
Terry Richardson DB MI 4 stars 5.8 May 19 18 NR 4 Greg Mattison
James Ross LB MI 4 stars 5.8 May 2 4 NR 3 Fred Jackson
Tom Strobel DE OH 4 stars 5.8 Jun 10 18 NR 14 Greg Mattison
Jarrod Wilson DB OH 4 stars 5.8 Jul 8 NR NR NR Greg Mattison
Ben Braden OL MI 3 stars 5.7 Mar 24 59 NR 9 Greg Mattison
Devin Funchess TE MI 3 stars 5.7 Apr 22 17 NR 6 Fred Jackson
Allen Gant DB OH 3 stars 5.7 May 31 22 NR 29 Al Borges
Matthew Godin DT MI 3 stars 5.7 May 12 27 NR 7 Fred Jackson
Kaleb Ringer LB OH 3 stars 5.7 Apr 12 11 NR 25 Mark Smith
Caleb Stacey OL OH 3 stars 5.7 Mar 26 12 NR 22 Mark Smith
Anthony Standifer DB IL 3 stars 5.7 Jun 01 37 NR 14 Jeff Hecklinski
A.J. Williams TE OH 3 stars 5.7 Apr 22 16 NR 28 Mark Smith
Mario Ojemudia DE MI 3 stars 5.6 May 7 NR NR 14 Fred Jackson
Jeremy Clark# DB KY 3 stars 5.5 Jun 24 NR NR 6 (Camp offer)
Sione Houma RB UT 0 stars NR Jul 25 NR NR NR Dan Ferrigno

# = entering as grayshirt

By the way those are end-of-cycle rankings so it's not an exact match, e.g. Newsome was at one point rated the 20th player in the country by Rivals and was around 40-something by mid-summer. For our purposes it gets the point across: RR had some great gifts for the tree had they hung on, but still needed a lot of stocking stuffers.

Both coaches worked quickly to over-address positions of the greatest whiffs in years previous. Rodriguez got two of the top QBs in the country signed on, and had 5-stars or near enough at cornerback and DT. To the groans of smurf-haters everywhere, RR also had secured two more scat-backs and another (highly rated) slot receiver. Schofield was considered a good system OT; Isaiah Bell was a S/LB sleeper adored by one Ohio site but not the national scouts. Hoke meanwhile has killed, already havingzrtn_011n1fb05fc4_tn secured five OL commitments, three of whom are already past the "just a 4-star" threshold, and also swept the region in LB recruits, faring almost as well in DEs. Hoke's clearly got the advantage.

You'll note a lot of the 2008 haul never made it to campus. The 3-9 year was partly to blame of course, however as of late July 2008 many of RR's guys were soft. Will Campbell (right) committed to Carr in the middle of his junior (2007) year and remained a softie; he eventually de-committed in September only to re-up after a long and pulmonarily destructive flirtation with SEC schools. Bryce committed but looking around; he lost interest in October, presumably after many sleepless nights spent thinking of Nick Sheridan passing to him. Newsome was entertaining a camp visit at Virginia Tech this time three years ago, but turned it down and sounded like he was rock. He and Beaver gave up around the same time (right after you mentally gave up on the 2008 offense) and were immediately replaced by Tate and the hard pursuit of some supersonic kid in Florida who Urban wanted badly and nobody thought was a QB.

And then there's DeQuinta Jones, a 4-star DT from Louisiana who just kind of randomly pretended to commit to M without visiting, kind of the way that my buddy once announced that he was in love with the hottest girl in camp, whom we will call L.H.*, so that other girls in camp would take him more seriously. If this seems at all weird to you welcome to the wild and wacky world of Louisiana recruiting; bring a funny hat. The DeQuinta/LH gambit worked surprisingly well in both cases, except not for the faux commit-ee.

If you take away the guys who de-committed from RR's 2009 class it looks more like this…

RRvHokeRecruiting

…and it's Hoke like whoa. A bad year in 2011 and maybe his class starts falling apart as well, but it is important to note that nobody on that list above is considered soft except the grayshirted Jeremy Clark** if he gets something better than high-ish MAC offers, whereas that label applied to half of RR's first full class by July.

Stick their late additions to the hybrid class with their first-year recruiting by July and you get:

RRvHokeRecruiting3

Not hugely dissimilar except that Hoke's got a lot more 3-stars and is missing four blue chips. In a worst case scenario the 2011 team starts losing a la 2008, while Ohio State's dancing along having gotten off virtually scot-free from the most obvious case of Failure to Monitor and Lack of Institutional Control I've ever witnessed in 20 years of college football fandom, and Hoke's Goodwill Ride of 2011 comes to a crashing, sudden stop, and then entire position groups are destroyed, and the 2012 guys start decomitting and the university hires Freakbass to rebrand us. If all those things don't happen, well, this probably turns out better than the last time.

Brian penned a State of Recruiting article in early August '08 that's worth a look-back so you can remember your comparable state of mind. How does that compare to now? And I didn't even make you compare "Denard: The Upperclassman Years" to "gee I hope this Sheridan guy really is a Basanez."

--Summer Glau

P.S. Don't miss the next exciting episode of 'Alphas' on Sci-Fi!

---------------------------------------------

* Fellow period Tamakwans will agree that this wasn't debatable. Maaaybe a few votes for E.C. or L.C. (EDIT: L.B.!!! HT Schram, Schram, Schneider, & Luria)

** He'll get a YMRMFSPA Charles Stewart if he makes it, but the Phillip Brackins comparison is so go, unless we decide you can all remember Eric Rosel.

Comments

wolverine1987

July 26th, 2011 at 7:44 PM ^

It was a really really small issue that was made into a very long post. But having sad that, there have been many other front page posts based upon things as small. And it did have info and pretty charts. Just because dudeness started it in a thread doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth writing about does it? (I'm anticipating a yes reply) Plus. Misopogon has much equity, he can live forever off of the credibility and goodness of the decimated defense series as far as I'm concerned.

Butterfield

July 26th, 2011 at 8:02 PM ^

There are thousands of brilliant people in the world whose ideas can't see the light of day because some past misstep has destroyed their credibility.  Fortunately Dudeness isn't one of those brilliant people, but the point still stands.   

umich_fan1

July 26th, 2011 at 8:51 PM ^

 Dudeness makes me want to push the minimum point total to 12000 to create a thread. Clearly the higher point totals on this blog don't always lend way to higher levels of credibility. Isn't there an I *heart* RR site where people with like mindset could post fading memories of a Big East Championship?

profitgoblue

July 27th, 2011 at 10:38 AM ^

Dudeness has been colored by his most recent posts/rants/raves, which may or may not be valid.  But to call him unintelligent is both incorrect and inappropriate.  Until recently, he was always one of the most consistently competent posters out of all us jokers.

And to your point, the person(s) that brought this guy to Ann Arbor is(are) okay in my book.  The rest is just water under the bridge.

 

chunkums

July 26th, 2011 at 6:28 PM ^

 

ESPN_BigTen: RT @wilnerhotline: Scott said he called NCAA prez Emmert after tOSU news last week; Emmert told him "misperception in media about finality"

 

Butterfield

July 26th, 2011 at 6:29 PM ^

Even though he espouses many of these beliefs himself, Brian is at least smart enough to know not to turn a typical trolling Dudeness post into a front page topic.  I have to imagine he's gonna be pissed to see the messes that his underlings Tim and Misopogon have caused around here in his absence. 

chunkums

July 26th, 2011 at 6:44 PM ^

Dudeness raises interesting points, but he's a massive troll about it.  There's just no getting around that our class is very good right now, and will end up very good as well.  Rodriguez's first class was also very good, so I won't be offended if this class is of that calibur.  Why it is a fighting point I have no idea.  Rodriguez didn't get canned because of his recruiting.

Edit:  And I'm not sure what purpose tailoring our excitement about it will do.

M-Wolverine

July 26th, 2011 at 7:29 PM ^

With things like "underlings", but the point of the post stands- the fact that instead of mods banning the worst case of consistent, unending, one note trolling in the board's history, but using it for inspiration, is a horrifying commentary on the state of the mindset of the blog.
<br>
<br>Though I don't think Brian would be that put out, because he probably agrees with Dudeness's insane ramblings.

M-Wolverine

July 26th, 2011 at 8:45 PM ^

I guess Brian could "fire" anyone he wanted, but using derogatory terms (and not totally true - MGoBlog, which is more of a partnership and help venture...Tim meshed his site with Brian's; guys like Misopogon do it on the side more for the love than the riches, that's for sure) just undercuts your point, which I thought was spot on...because once you're a dick, that's all people are going to hear...the dicky part. I mean, in posting you CAN just say those things...but if you're not typing just to hear yourself "speak", and want someone to listen, it's probably best to tone it down. Or you become Dudeness....who once made interesting points, but no one would even listen anymore if he did. Well, other than Misopogon, apparently.

And yes, I'm probably speaking from experience...not juggling boulders in glass houses. And I've probably paid the "price" that there are those who won't even "listen" to what I say. Or at least less so than guys like MGoShoe and Blue in South Bend, Don, etc., who have viewpoints, but better self-control, and a lower snark level, and are more widely respected for it.

I guess I'm  saying I like what you have to say a lot of the time...but the way you say it, I can see why some people get turned off by the delivery of the message.

RockinLoud

July 26th, 2011 at 8:56 PM ^

One of the biggest things I took away from one of the best public speakers I've had the privilege to know was that the packaging of the message you're trying to deliver is just as important, if not more so in some ways, than the content.

Butterfield

July 26th, 2011 at 8:57 PM ^

Advice is always appreciated.  I'm pretty passionate about things I'm interested in, of which Michigan football is definitely one, and unfortunately that can lead to me to be a little defensive and snarky when I see a post which is clearly inflamatory.  As the fan base shifts more towards supporting the program again instead of an offensive philosophy, I've been able to contain my snark to a much higher degree.  But the events of today sent me back in time to February and I suppose I should offer my apologies to anyone I offended, including His Dudeness.

yoopergoblue

July 26th, 2011 at 6:39 PM ^

You have to give credit to Hoke for bringing in such a top-notch recruiting class so far despite the way the last three years have gone and the fact that he had to re-build many relationships with Midwest high school coaches.  The thing that has impressed me the most about Hoke so far is that everyone speaks so glowingly about him.  He is about as real as it gets. 

maizenbluenc

July 27th, 2011 at 10:55 AM ^

Rich was really down to earth, and a straight shooter.

That said, I have met Coach Hoke, and his staff (I never met Rich and his staff). They seem like straight forward, confident, good guys. Mark Smith (the linebackers coach) did a great job of skills coaching (my son was in the linebackers group for youth position camp). He was able to get through to the middle schoolers, why the little things were important. Greg Mattison is a great speaker - he is motivational and comes across very confident. In a camp of a few hundred kids, Coach Hoke was able to remember my son after meeting him once for a picture.

Coach Hoke does have an advantage that he is from the Midwest, and therefore is more accepted in the Midwest. And being from the Midwest, in the fall they ought to be better at winning in the Big Ten, because they know what it takes to do so.

However, even Coach Hoke says "I haven't won a game yet" when he speaks (I like the self-deprecation). So we'll see. Recruiting is going really well. (Al Borges told me so himself.) Now lets see how coaching, and leadership goes. Particularly on the field.

FWIW, if you have a middle schooler who plays football, the youth camp was great. (A bit of history: the current format was put in place by Rich Rodriguez's staff.) I looked at several youth camp options, and most (including all of my local choices) included elementary and middle school aged kids, and were more general in nature. The Michigan camp was only middle schoolers, and focused on position group specific skills. Plus you get access to the practice facilities (we were in Glick), and the Big House.

UMaD

July 26th, 2011 at 6:36 PM ^

Getting early commitments is fun and interesting, but it has no direct benefits.  Potentially, the staff can focus more attention on 2013, but we won't see if that's a tangible benefit for at least another year.

So...we'll want to compare apples to apples.  I see two major opportunities to do so:

1. signing day

2. 5 seasons after their arrival (i.e. after all class memberships eligibility expires)

Obviously 2 is impossible for many years, so dudeness took a resonable shot at 1.

Blue boy johnson

July 26th, 2011 at 6:37 PM ^

This is way too broad a subject. We need to compare day by day and see who comes out on top, it's the only proper way to go about it.

I did some quick calculations and graphs, would post them, but I'm to ignant to embed on the new system. In a nutshell, as of day 200 it is Hoke 147   RR 53.

Seth

July 26th, 2011 at 7:40 PM ^

Can I see your charts?

I'd like to recalculate a bit so we can have that score down to three decimal points. Question: did you include 247's natonal rankings in your calculations? And where oh where did you get good data on the teams' fiber intake from year to year under each coach: Fremeau Nutritional Watch unfortunately only goes back to 2009.

E.L. blue fan

July 26th, 2011 at 6:50 PM ^

"Hoke meanwhile has killed, already having secured five OL commitments, three of whom are already past the "just a 4-star" threshold, and also swept the region in LB recruits, faring almost as well in DEs. Hoke's clearly got the advantage."

I am not really getting an anti-Hoke vibe from this. 

Tacopants

July 26th, 2011 at 10:33 PM ^

For the record, I don't really see any shots at Hoke either.

Also, I'm assuming everybody knows their way around the interwebs.  If people don't enjoy this site, there's always Maize and Brew, Touch The Banner, The Wolverine Blog, WLA, etc.

They all provide roughly the same amount of news information if that's what you're looking for.  Scout and Rivals have message boards is you're lookiing for that.  There are other options if you think Mgoblog is pro Rich Rodriguez (I see it as more like not against Rodriguez/everybody is sad about the defense)  and anti Hoke (which was true during the coaching search, but not anymore)

Blue boy johnson

July 26th, 2011 at 7:16 PM ^

I ain't a hatin', just poking a little fun at Mr. Misopogon. I thought he did this post half in jest, so I just played along. But in all honesty, I did take the time to crunch the numbers

 

I like the new term they started on Maize and Brew... Math Ball, that shit cracks me up.

It's like Brady Hoke is Foghorn Leghorn,and Brian is the little genius kid who figures out the best way too play sports with a few advanced mathematical formulas, and the little fella outdoes old Foghorn at every turn.

I tawt I taw the quarterback under center

Seth

July 26th, 2011 at 8:05 PM ^

I'm glad someone noticed. Believe me, I'm familiar with the tenor of His Dudeness posts. What I dont' get is why it pisses anybody off. The guy was an RR fan. He had his reasons. Other guys are just happy the program's back to normal and the "factions" have been united again under the Plantagenets. They have good reasons for this too. Section 1 hates the Free Press. Bouje hates how his voice cracks. McFarlin and BlueFront and Everybody steals, murders, trolls on you, trolls on me.

Frankly, I was more concerned about His Dudeness being pissed at me for Summer Glau-ing his silly post in the first place. To summarize:

Dudeness: Look, RR's early recruiting efforts were better than Hoke's

Me: Yeah, if you count half the class being "soft" commits, including a dude who probably only heard about Michigan this one time in a magazine.

If you'd rather see Dudeness utterly taken down by a point-counterpoint, follow the link then follow the thread until you get to chitown. Really, watching that guy work a board is like watching Batman work Gotham city. POW! BAP! SCHWANG!

M-Wolverine

July 26th, 2011 at 8:57 PM ^

and thought it would piss some people off this morning

I am just going to continue doing whatever the fuck I feel like doing

And go fuck yourself. your brain is small.

If I had an approach to comment on a blog I would probably just end it all.

The rest of your post is most likely equally stupid. Sorry I didn't make it past the first line.

So when you are watching and cheering the team this year just remember that any coach or kid who signed on at this university should be respected.

The last (my bold) mainly because he actually criticizes someone for "irony" just above it.

Seth

July 26th, 2011 at 9:37 PM ^

...and I just wrote a 2,000-word fisk of his post, and the other guy doing the flaming today just ripped my fisk THAT AGREES WITH HIS SENTIMENT in douche-y fashion and I'm trying not to  be the guy (again - because I've been that guy before) who just sends people I argue with to Bolivia.

For the record those comments are way out of line. I still think the original post was worth a fisking, because the idea that RR's early recruiting is as good as Hoke's is seriously wrong but not so easily proved.

M-Wolverine

July 26th, 2011 at 9:49 PM ^

"why does anyone disagree with his posts?"  You've just shown why, and with pretty charts.  And even if they do, that's fine, because that's why there are comments to posts. You asked "what I dont' get is why it pisses anybody off."  And that's why. Because he trolls his way to his points and message. No one hates him for being contrary.  (Maybe being CONSTANTLY contrary). 

And that other guy is being told to stop being a dick. It's not as overwhelming because he's reflecting the sentiment of the readers to the tenor of recent front page posts, and because his arguments don't sound like the addled workings of a lobotomized ADD 1 year old chimpanzee....they just have an unnecessary ass-y-ness thrown into them. (And he is at -27, while the other guy is back up to 11000+ and posting threads....)

His Dudeness

July 26th, 2011 at 6:53 PM ^

Thanks Misopogon. Very well put and with charts(!). I like how you knew deep in your brain that I wasn't just trolling. I honestly think RR gets a bad rap and the Hoke love boner is just a tad over the top. That was my point. I get the "we have something to get excited about so let's get excited!!" idea, but I just think if we temper our expectations a bit then we will allow for this coach to have the time needed to eventually have success.

 

JBE

July 26th, 2011 at 7:24 PM ^

Now, like Hoke, you're starting to get it.  

JBE:  Where Amazing Happens Every Second of Every Day.  

His Dudeness:  Where RR Gets Continuously, Healthily Blown By Some Internet Identity Who Doesn't Realize It's Over And That It's Time To Move On.

P.S.  Don't you think Gallon is smaller than a prototypical NFL reciever?