200 Days: Rich Rod vs. Hoke

Submitted by Seth on July 26th, 2011 at 6:11 PM

 Venting  108007682_crop_358x243

xkcd / Hoke pointing at xkcd / EDIT: which means you should click on it dammit so you will get the point!

This morning His Dudeness posted a throwaway discussion topic for the board comparing Rodriguez's 2009 recruiting to Hoke's 2012. This was taken by some as an attempt to reopen 2008-'10 wounds but really it's another "how many ways can we talk about how awesome our 2012 recruiting is going?" (So so awesome). Anyway this started as a reply to fisk of that thread and ended up at 2,000 words plus charts. Hi, I'm Misopogon, have we met?

It's been almost 200 days since Hoke took the job. That's not much to go on when trying to judge a coach. Basically there's 1) his previous resume, 2) the process of how he was hired, 3) how he built his staff, 4) how he integrates into the program, and then 5) a few months of recruiting. I literally wrote up the first four then figured what the hell would we want to go over that again, so let's skip right to recruiting.

Finishing the Class of…

RRvHokeRecruiting2

Rodriguez additions to Class of '08:

Name Pos State Stars RR Pos Rk Nat Rk State Rk Rec'd By
Michael Shaw RB OH 4 stars 5.9 7 NR 6  
Taylor Hill LB OH 4 stars 5.8 21 NR 16  
Terrence Robinson RB TX 4 stars 5.8 9 NR 34  
Ricky Barnum OL FL 4 stars 5.8 5 NR 37  
Roy Roundtree WR OH 4 stars 5.8 44 NR 17 Bruce Tall
Justin Feagin ATH FL 3 stars 5.7 41 NR 71  
Martavious Odoms WR FL 3 stars 5.7 71 NR 77 Rod Smith
Patrick Omameh DE OH 2 stars 5.1 NR NR NR Bruce Tall

Hoke additions to Class of '11:

Name Pos State Stars RR Pos Rk Nat Rk State Rk Rec'd By
Chris Barnett TE TX 4 stars 5.8 14 NR 32 Jeff Hecklinski
Raymon Taylor ATH MI 4 stars 5.8 14 NR 6  
Antonio Poole LB OH 3 stars 5.7 26 NR 20 Mark Smith
Frank Clark LB OH 3 stars 5.6 NR NR 52  
Thomas Rawls RB MI 3 stars 5.6 NR NR 19 Fred Jackson
Russell Bellomy QB TX 3 stars 5.5 NR NR NR  
Tamani Carter DB OH 3 stars 5.5 NR NR 60 Mark Smith
Keith Heitzman DE OH 3 stars 5.5 NR NR NR Greg Mattison, Mark Smith
Matt Wile K CA 2 stars 5.3 NR NR NR  

This is unfair to judge the coaches against each other. Rodriguez was hired in November and was taking over a Citrus-bound program with a retiring Hall of Fame coach, while Hoke was hired in the middle of January after a blowout Gator loss and following a fired guy. Rodriguez had less time than would have been optimal given the breadth of his transition, but it was no more of a transition than Hoke faces, and RR got a good two months, including the all-important December period, to bring the current class home.

The recruiting is reflected in that. Other than bringing Hill from W.Va., Rodriguez mostly grabbed guys to fit his offensive system. Shaw's a speed-back, T-Rob, Roundtree and Odoms were slot receivers, Barnum and Omameh were the kind of agile offensive linemen who fit best in zone blocking, and Feagin was a last-minute consolation prize when Pryor decided he'd get more out of attending Ohio State. Hoke on the other hand found a handful of Michigan and Ohio State Sad Joshes (Clark, Carter, Heitzman, Rawls, Poole, Bellomy and Taylor), at positions of great need, replaced the kicker lost in the transition, yanked the requisite Purdue recruit (Bellomy) to ensure Danny Hope stays petty, and pulled in a last-minute coup on a national tight end.

Both did okay, not fantastic. Hoke got a kicker back, which was a big deal, but needed to flip someone's 5.9+ OT and pick up another good-to-great linebacker to avoid scary depths at that positions starting in 2012; RR's failure to get more help at defensive back (Carr had Brandon Smith, J.T. Floyd, and Cissoko) would haunt him the rest of his Michigan career (nobody planned on losing 2/4 LBs by next summer). Oh, and, ahem, quarterback.

Recruiting the Class of…

RRvHokeRecruitingall

Rodriguez 2009 recruits as of July 26, 2008:

Name Pos State Stars RR Commit'd Pos Nat State Rec'd By:
William Campbell DT MI 5 stars 6.1 Oct. 2007 5 26 1 (Carr's staff)
Justin Turner DB OH 4 stars 6.0 Mar 28 3 35 1 Bruce Tall
Bryce McNeal WR MN 4 stars 6.0 May 1 10 75 1 Tony Dews
Kevin Newsome QB VA 4 stars 5.9 Apr 24 4 163 9 Fred Jackson
Jeremy Gallon ATH FL 4 stars 5.9 Jun 05 11 NR 31 Rod Smith
DeQuinta Jones DT LA 4 stars 5.8 Jul 21 NR NR 10 Jay Hopson
Shavodrick Beaver QB TX 4 stars 5.8 Apr 29 8 206 24 Rod Smith
Fitz Toussaint RB OH 4 stars 5.8 Apr 18 8 NR 14 Tony Gibson
Michael Schofield OL IL 4 stars 5.8 Jun 16 18 NR 6 Scott Shafer
Teric Jones RB MI 3 stars 5.7 Mar 29 37 NR 12 Tony Dews
Isaiah Bell LB OH 3 stars 5.7 Mar 31 26 NR 27 Tony Gibson

Hoke 2012 recruits as of July 26, 2011:

Name Pos State Stars RR Commit'd Pos Nat State Rec'd By
Kyle Kalis OL OH 4 stars 6.0 Jul 10 4 18 1 Greg Mattison
Royce Jenkins-Stone LB MI 4 stars 5.9 Apr 16 7 87 1 Fred Jackson
Erik Magnuson OL CA 4 stars 5.9 Jun 10 8 34 6 Dan Ferrigno
Blake Bars OL TN 4 stars 5.8 Jun 26 34 NR 6 Mark Smith
Joe Bolden LB OH 4 stars 5.8 Apr 29 16 NR 11 Greg Mattison
Pharaoh Brown DE OH 4 stars 5.8 May 07 20 NR 17 Greg Mattison
Terry Richardson DB MI 4 stars 5.8 May 19 18 NR 4 Greg Mattison
James Ross LB MI 4 stars 5.8 May 2 4 NR 3 Fred Jackson
Tom Strobel DE OH 4 stars 5.8 Jun 10 18 NR 14 Greg Mattison
Jarrod Wilson DB OH 4 stars 5.8 Jul 8 NR NR NR Greg Mattison
Ben Braden OL MI 3 stars 5.7 Mar 24 59 NR 9 Greg Mattison
Devin Funchess TE MI 3 stars 5.7 Apr 22 17 NR 6 Fred Jackson
Allen Gant DB OH 3 stars 5.7 May 31 22 NR 29 Al Borges
Matthew Godin DT MI 3 stars 5.7 May 12 27 NR 7 Fred Jackson
Kaleb Ringer LB OH 3 stars 5.7 Apr 12 11 NR 25 Mark Smith
Caleb Stacey OL OH 3 stars 5.7 Mar 26 12 NR 22 Mark Smith
Anthony Standifer DB IL 3 stars 5.7 Jun 01 37 NR 14 Jeff Hecklinski
A.J. Williams TE OH 3 stars 5.7 Apr 22 16 NR 28 Mark Smith
Mario Ojemudia DE MI 3 stars 5.6 May 7 NR NR 14 Fred Jackson
Jeremy Clark# DB KY 3 stars 5.5 Jun 24 NR NR 6 (Camp offer)
Sione Houma RB UT 0 stars NR Jul 25 NR NR NR Dan Ferrigno

# = entering as grayshirt

By the way those are end-of-cycle rankings so it's not an exact match, e.g. Newsome was at one point rated the 20th player in the country by Rivals and was around 40-something by mid-summer. For our purposes it gets the point across: RR had some great gifts for the tree had they hung on, but still needed a lot of stocking stuffers.

Both coaches worked quickly to over-address positions of the greatest whiffs in years previous. Rodriguez got two of the top QBs in the country signed on, and had 5-stars or near enough at cornerback and DT. To the groans of smurf-haters everywhere, RR also had secured two more scat-backs and another (highly rated) slot receiver. Schofield was considered a good system OT; Isaiah Bell was a S/LB sleeper adored by one Ohio site but not the national scouts. Hoke meanwhile has killed, already havingzrtn_011n1fb05fc4_tn secured five OL commitments, three of whom are already past the "just a 4-star" threshold, and also swept the region in LB recruits, faring almost as well in DEs. Hoke's clearly got the advantage.

You'll note a lot of the 2008 haul never made it to campus. The 3-9 year was partly to blame of course, however as of late July 2008 many of RR's guys were soft. Will Campbell (right) committed to Carr in the middle of his junior (2007) year and remained a softie; he eventually de-committed in September only to re-up after a long and pulmonarily destructive flirtation with SEC schools. Bryce committed but looking around; he lost interest in October, presumably after many sleepless nights spent thinking of Nick Sheridan passing to him. Newsome was entertaining a camp visit at Virginia Tech this time three years ago, but turned it down and sounded like he was rock. He and Beaver gave up around the same time (right after you mentally gave up on the 2008 offense) and were immediately replaced by Tate and the hard pursuit of some supersonic kid in Florida who Urban wanted badly and nobody thought was a QB.

And then there's DeQuinta Jones, a 4-star DT from Louisiana who just kind of randomly pretended to commit to M without visiting, kind of the way that my buddy once announced that he was in love with the hottest girl in camp, whom we will call L.H.*, so that other girls in camp would take him more seriously. If this seems at all weird to you welcome to the wild and wacky world of Louisiana recruiting; bring a funny hat. The DeQuinta/LH gambit worked surprisingly well in both cases, except not for the faux commit-ee.

If you take away the guys who de-committed from RR's 2009 class it looks more like this…

RRvHokeRecruiting

…and it's Hoke like whoa. A bad year in 2011 and maybe his class starts falling apart as well, but it is important to note that nobody on that list above is considered soft except the grayshirted Jeremy Clark** if he gets something better than high-ish MAC offers, whereas that label applied to half of RR's first full class by July.

Stick their late additions to the hybrid class with their first-year recruiting by July and you get:

RRvHokeRecruiting3

Not hugely dissimilar except that Hoke's got a lot more 3-stars and is missing four blue chips. In a worst case scenario the 2011 team starts losing a la 2008, while Ohio State's dancing along having gotten off virtually scot-free from the most obvious case of Failure to Monitor and Lack of Institutional Control I've ever witnessed in 20 years of college football fandom, and Hoke's Goodwill Ride of 2011 comes to a crashing, sudden stop, and then entire position groups are destroyed, and the 2012 guys start decomitting and the university hires Freakbass to rebrand us. If all those things don't happen, well, this probably turns out better than the last time.

Brian penned a State of Recruiting article in early August '08 that's worth a look-back so you can remember your comparable state of mind. How does that compare to now? And I didn't even make you compare "Denard: The Upperclassman Years" to "gee I hope this Sheridan guy really is a Basanez."

--Summer Glau

P.S. Don't miss the next exciting episode of 'Alphas' on Sci-Fi!

---------------------------------------------

* Fellow period Tamakwans will agree that this wasn't debatable. Maaaybe a few votes for E.C. or L.C. (EDIT: L.B.!!! HT Schram, Schram, Schneider, & Luria)

** He'll get a YMRMFSPA Charles Stewart if he makes it, but the Phillip Brackins comparison is so go, unless we decide you can all remember Eric Rosel.

Comments

Butterfield

July 26th, 2011 at 7:25 PM ^

Rita,

Most of us don't personally dislike your husband, some of us just think that he wasn't the man for the job after watching 3 seasons of blowouts, particularly in-conference blowouts.  Give your hubby my best and let him know that I'm pulling for him in his gig with CBS.     I don't

brandanomano

July 26th, 2011 at 8:30 PM ^

Standing in the blue corner...standing at 5'9", weighing 150 lbs, the raining troll champion of the world...HIS DUDENESS!

And in the red corner...standing at 5'4, 180 lbs, the up and comer...BUTTERFIELD!

Ladies and gentlemen, the internet fight of the century is about to go down after this commercial break.

chunkums

July 26th, 2011 at 8:43 PM ^

Dudeness, I think your point was valid to an extent, but what's the point?  Hoke is the coach now, and Hoke has a top class.  Why can't we be happy for Hoke without constantly being reminded about how Rodriguez gets chastized for things that had nothing to do with his firing?  Richrod doesn't need our defense.  He has a new job at CBS sports and what people say about him is of no consequence.

Baldbill

July 27th, 2011 at 8:09 AM ^

The problem is that in writing text, it is hard to make sure of someones intent. It is very difficult to read sarcasm or other subtile language shifts. Your posts often come off very negative, I really want Hoke to succeed and I am excited about what he has done so far. If you are wanting to bring a bit of realisim to our fanbase expectations, you might try to be a bit kinder/gentler Dude. I looked at the thread yesterday and got a bit honked off and then read what Summer Glau has written here and thought it was great.

profitgoblue

July 27th, 2011 at 9:55 AM ^

I guess I'm an official Dudeness sympathizer . . . I think every Michigan fan can use a dose of tempered expectations.  If the past 3 years have taught us anything, it should be that Michigan football is not the untouchable program that people were lulled into believing.  I was the worst of the bunch - I grew up never knowing a losing season or missing a bowl bid.  That's just not realistic.  But that's not the 21st century reality.  And its time that we all remember that fact and avoid falling into the "entitlement" trap again.  That is how I take all of Dudeness's posts, anyway.  To me, they are useful for that reason alone.

 

Butterfield

July 27th, 2011 at 11:02 AM ^

Tempered expectations are no fun, man.  Sports are a diversion from ordinary life, lives where tempering expectations is often neccessary.  I for one refuse to be so damn pragmatic about what is and always has been fun for me. 

I also don't agree at all with your assessment of HD's purpose.  He clearly formed an irrevocable bond with Rodriguez and isn't happy RR is gone, despite early signs that Michigan is moving back in the right direction.  But it's not worth arguing about....it's just one man who I'm wasting way, way, way too much time on. 

profitgoblue

July 27th, 2011 at 11:20 AM ^

I hear you, but you may not (or may?) have the history behind the man that is Dudeness.  I see that you're a fairly new member.  Dudeness has been posting for a much longer time than you (e.g. he's before your time) and has always been a very competent poster.  The "CC" discussions from late 2010 were enough to drive anyone crazy and it appears as though it did for Dudeness.  But you don't have that history and thus are not able to sympathize.  I however, lived and breathed it (was in the trenches with him).

Also, what was fun for you about the past 3 years (other than Denard)??  You think crashing expectations are fun?  Well, sir, then you must also enjoy poking hot needles in your eyes!  This has not been my idea of fun.

 

Butterfield

July 27th, 2011 at 11:44 AM ^

Everything I know about Dudeness is from January 2011 on, so it is absolutely correct that I'm not familiar with his salad days.  But since the CC, I've witnessed several dyed in the wool RR fans who have at least come to appreciate what Hoke has brought to the table if not fully support the change.  HD is that last icicle waiting to be knocked from the gutter and our collective broom isn't long enough to reach - just an annoyance but one that really eats away at you! 

As far as your question about where I generated my fun the last three years - my (unrealistic) expectations leading up to seasons, my (laughable) hopes that the defense would improve, the offensive production in the non-conference schedule the last two seasons, and finally (and I suppose somewhat sadly) the increasing possibilities as last year played out that RR would be replaced.  There's a lot more bad than good from that period, obviously, but I prefer to live in an off-season world where hope (or Hoke in this case) springs eternal. 

JR's Flow

July 26th, 2011 at 6:53 PM ^

The hate for Misopogon's posts...? He not only gives great posts but his posts are long, self-explanatory, and IMO extraordinary.  Keep on Keepin' on

Butterfield

July 26th, 2011 at 10:10 PM ^

I owe you an apology, Misopogon.  The "Summer Glau" graphic was blocked on my work computer so the overriding concept behind your post was lost on me.  Now that I'm home with freedom to look at any damn image I please, I don't think you were out of line.  Still would be my preference not to glorify trolls and give them their 15 minutes of fame though....

UMaD

July 26th, 2011 at 6:58 PM ^

Michigan recruits a fixed level of talent.  i.e. Michigan recruits itself.  Every signing day we have a class consensus ranked 5-15th nationally. Neither Hoke nor Rodriguez appear to have moved the needle in this regard. (Although the combined 2011 class was a low outlier due to transition, timing, uncertainy, and accumulated damage from 3 and 5-win seasons.)

Where a coach differentiates himself is in a) retaining players b) developing players and c) how players are used.  You could also make a case about character but that's pretty squishy and impossible to prove or quantify.

 

Seth

July 26th, 2011 at 7:48 PM ^

That's a working hypothesis I used for years, but like a company that always seems to be making its margins, it takes a lot of consistently good work to have sustained success. The brand doesn't sell itself -- it's just that the worst coach we've had in 40 years was still able to keep recruiting success at an extraordinarily high level (he just screwed up a), b), c), and of course totally mutilated the "D."

TrppWlbrnID

July 26th, 2011 at 7:07 PM ^

It's basically Brian and "the other Brian" paragraphing it out over this stuff. I miss the other Brian, the real brian has been chased away by the parsing of every single adjective he uses.

CRex

July 26th, 2011 at 7:14 PM ^

Personally attacks on users, arguing over "trolling", various levels of butthurt over the RR firing and/or Hoke hiring.  This comment section is like a microcosm of what is wrong with this blog.

One comment to make on the article.  I realize this is almost impossible to do, but we need to find a way to adjust for the fact we have a bumper crop of talent in your backyard this year.  Not to take anything away from Hoke, but he was further blessed with an abnormally high number of 4* recruits within one day's drive from campus.  That definitely helps.  Whereas in 2008 we were rummaging around in areas we did not traditionally recruit from.  

moffle

July 26th, 2011 at 7:53 PM ^

This is a good question. But is it really the case that there is an abnormally high number of 4 star recruits in our area, or is it just that we have more successfully recruited Michigan and Ohio this time around?

Rivals' 2009 class had 11 Michigan players at 4 stars or above; the 2012 class has only 5. But in 2009 we only signed 2 of those 11, while this year we've already got 3 of the 5 committed and are optimistic on the other 2.

In Ohio the number of highly rated players is about equal (16 in 2009 vs. 18 for 2012), but again in 2009 we got 2 of the 16 while for the 2012 class we have 5 of the 18 commited.

(Of course, these are preseason vs. postseason rankings, not sure how much Rivals' list of 2012 4 stars has yet to expand.)

bronxblue

July 26th, 2011 at 9:33 PM ^

If I remember correctly about 2009, that was a random year in which a bunch of kids seemed higher ranked than you'd think for Michigan, and RR had a bad run trying to snag kids after a 3-9 season.  Also, there just a bunch of kids in the state who gravitated to MSU in a way that nobody could have expected.  That said, it was a bumper crop of sorts for the state and MSU cleaned up; hopefully this year will be the same for Hoke.  

chunkums

July 26th, 2011 at 7:51 PM ^

One thing about the Rivals rankings is that they have no midwest recruiting analyst, which is interesting when you consider that most of our current recruits are from the midwest.

TampaBLUE

July 26th, 2011 at 11:59 PM ^

Ha, wife and I. Fortunate to have a girl that shares all my interests. Even M football. (but sadly does draw the line at the other 12 games I try to watch every Saturday).
Yeah it occurred to us too - all her shows get cancelled but they are all good - ratings be damned.

dahblue

July 26th, 2011 at 9:03 PM ^

I'm confused...is this thread a sarcastic rip on HisDudeness?  Or is it serious?  If serious, I'd say this sentence says all that needs to be said:

This is unfair to judge the coaches against each other. Rodriguez was hired in November and was taking over a Citrus-bound program with a retiring Hall of Fame coach, while Hoke was hired in the middle of January after a blowout Gator loss and following a fired guy.

...because the thread is all about doing what it claims is unfair.  Anyway, I don't know enough of the mgoblog inside jokes to know what the OP is doing.

bronxblue

July 26th, 2011 at 9:22 PM ^

I honestly don't care about the genesis of this post - it was thoughtful and illuminating.  I know people like to overreact about people not named Brian posting material, but if the biggest troll in the world posts something that makes you think a little, then so be it.  Blind squirrel, meet nut.

bronxblue

July 26th, 2011 at 9:38 PM ^

I agree about the presentation.  At the same time, there are quite a few posters here who come across as various levels of ass-ness (me included) at times, and I generally tune that part of the discussion out.

What drives me crazy are the people who come on this site to complain about the "state" of the site, how it has gotten worse/more divisive, how some people need to stop getting all "butt hurt" over RR, how others needs to stop slobbering over Hoke, etc.  It's a freaking website dedicated to UM sports - you don't need to be here if you don't like it.  And if you want a site with a different style that is more conducive to your mood, check out the sidebar over <------ for another option.

I don't always agree with what is written here, but MGoBlog is one of the best sports sites on the web, hands-down.  I don't come for the board threads and the ssad cats (okay, maybe the cats); I come for the content from guys like Brian, Tim, and Misopogon.  

1974

July 26th, 2011 at 9:51 PM ^

You wrote:

"What drives me crazy are the people who come on this site to complain about the "state" of the site, how it has gotten worse/more divisive, how some people need to stop getting all "butt hurt" over RR, how others needs to stop slobbering over Hoke, etc."

Exhibit A for this was posted 35 minutes before your contribution. It's nearby.

MichiganMan2424

July 26th, 2011 at 10:27 PM ^

You know it's bad when this is a front page post on Mgoblog.

Lets try to put things in perspective for everyone about this recruiting class.

First off, it's a good class. Regardless of what RR did in any of his years, it's a good class. Considering our needs, and the system Hoke runs, it's a good class.

Also, many of the players we have commited are in line to get another star, which will make this class look even better on paper.

There are also many more top line recruits who we still have legitimate chances with. If Hoke can get even a few of these recruits to come, the class is even better.

Even if you do want to compare Rich Rod and Hoke, as many people have said before, how many of RR's recruits actually made it to signing day, let alone the field?

And although people are going to compare RR and Hoke, I personally think the comparison is ridiculous. RR came to Michigan already having made a name for himself at West Virginia nationally, and following a team that had just won a bowl game against an Urban Meyer/Tim Tebow lead Florida team, and two years after Michigan had been to a Rose Bowl.

Hoke comes to Michigan after the worst 3 year period in program history as a virtual unkown to most. Wouldn't you expect RR to be able to out recruit Hoke? The fact that these numbers are so similar when comparing the two at this point speaks volumes about Hoke and his staff's talent as recruiters. If Hoke can lead Michigan to even an 8 win season, the caliber of players he recruits should increase even more.

But in the end, none of this will matter if Hoke can do the one thing RR couldn't. Win.

 

bronxblue

July 26th, 2011 at 10:46 PM ^

I largely agree, though I would argue that a few factors were working against RR compared to the situation Hoke stepped into.

  1. When RR came to UM, they hadn't missed a bowl game in decades.  People expected the same old dominant UM, even though 2007 kind of showed that the team was having trouble keeping the cupboards stocked and competing with the elite programs in the nation.  I would actually argue that the loss to USC the year before kind of showed this issue, but whatever.  So when RR was left with Threet and Sheridan as his QBs, people kind of ignored the fact that this team was not constructed to succeed like earlier editions.  With Hoke, you have a guy coming in after 3 mediocre years and 8 wins (so one more than last year's team) seems to be a positive.  Expectations are definitely different.
  2. As soon as RR touched down in A2, there was sniping in the media that he wasn't the right guy for the position, that his offense won't work in the B1G, etc.  Some comments were obviously thoughtful and objective, but quite a few were made by guys with agendas.  Thus far, Hoke has been treated with kid gloves by the media, and while I do think he deserves this respect, so did RR.  
  3. As noted by the decimated defense articles and others on this site, RR had limited options on both sides of the ball when he stepped in, and the struggles are definitely part on him, you can't ignore the lack of depth in the secondary and at LB.  Hoke at least inherits a team with some depth at certain positions, even if it might be mediocre depth.  Also, he has the B10 POY at QB.  I actually think the talent issue is the weakest argument/difference between the two coaches, but it should be noted.
  4. When RR came to UM, OSU was a dominant program and MSU was starting to build a pipeline to some of the Detroit schools thanks to some sneaky connections with head coaches.  PSU was coming off a good season, and Notre Dame inexplicably could still recruit despite Weis being a joke.  Since Hoke was hired, OSU cratered as Tressel et al. traded crappy memorabilia for crappy tattoos, MSU had some pipelines dry up, and PSU is going into the season with a Ginger TAINT machine at QB.  ND is still kicking along with great recruits, so maybe this will be their year to return to glory.
  5. RR tried to get his Casteel to join him at UM, but loyalty won out and he remained at WVU.  Hoke was able to get one of the best NFL DCs to come to UM, and with it any decent LB recruit in the greater Midwest.  He also kept Jackson, who makes me sound like an all-world RB/WR/PG combo.

So I guess my point is that while Hoke definitely deserves credit for his recruiting prowess, let's not crown him the GOAT quite yet.  I want him to succeed at UM like nobody's business, but not because of revisionist history or unnecessary cracks at the guy before him.

lexus larry

July 27th, 2011 at 9:03 AM ^

I think your point 3 is a partial analysis/justification, which many people tend to do (not knocking your point, just wanting to expand on it).

One of the issues that used to just grind from the dying embers of the LC era was that his conservatism on O tended to keep too many of our (on paper) overmatched opponents in the game, therefore forcing most starters/upper-classmen to remain in the games well into the 4th quarter, if not the entire game (both sides of the ball).  This, in turn, led to the back-ups being a real fall-off in capability or experience when called upon in the case of injuries or (ugh) rest being needed.  Isn't there an old adage about nothing beating game experience?

Compare/contrast to JT at OSU, where he had a nice melange of Soph/Jr/Sr on his units (and got big leads, providing the opportunity for underclassmen/back-ups to get some meaningful gameday experience) when RR arrived, he pointed out repeatedly (seemingly to a deaf audience), that not only was he going to install his system, but that most of these players hadn't played a (meaningful) collegiate down in their careers at U-M...and the past 3 years kind of bore some of those points out.

bronxblue

July 27th, 2011 at 1:57 PM ^

I totally agree about the conservatism on offense hurting the team's depth.  I still remember watching that Ball St. (I think) game a couple of years ago and dying that the starters had to stay out there well into the 4th quarter.  Carr was a lot of things, and I respect him not pulling a Beilima (sp?) and crapping on overmatched teams, but getting your backups meaningful playing time was something his approach never addressed.

classickaaee

July 27th, 2011 at 6:41 AM ^

hey that's an amazing comparison. thanks a ton for sharing it !!

 

 

 

http://smallville-tvshow.com/

 

chitownblue2

July 27th, 2011 at 9:18 AM ^

I remember a few years ago, I was one of a number of people that helmed MGoBlog during Brian's Egyptian vacation. I remember that while a number of people were positive, there was a tremendous outpouring of "YOU IDIOTS AREN'T BRIAN, YOU JOKES ARE STUPID GO HOME."

I criticize Misopogon as much as anyone, but this thread is waaaaayyyy out of line. Writing daily about anything is really really fucking hard - that's why there's only one Brian. Shit, my blog has like 7 billion contributors, and we post twice a week when we're feeling it.

The fact that you can be an asshole to Misopogon without doing so to his face shouldn't enbolden people to do it here, merely because he's the guy brave enough to try to entertain you jackals for two fucking weeks. As I said, writing daily about Michigan is HARD, and doing so for mass public-consumption is harder.

I'm not saying you can't disagree, but 1/2 the shit on this thread is sheer ad hominem. I know a few dudes that have tail-gated with Misopogon in the past, and by all accounts, he's a painfully nice individual. He doesn't deserve the ration of shit you dicks are giving him.

MCalibur

July 27th, 2011 at 10:15 AM ^

It's as if the only way folks know how to express disagreement with someone is by disrespecting them.

I think the internet arena encourages contentious discourse -- and I like that to a certain extent -- but it's lame to throw tomatoes at people when the thrower hasn't even tried to put together a coherent/thoughtful diary or comment together, let alone do so successfully.

 

Zaqataq

July 27th, 2011 at 11:05 AM ^

Tamakwa reference on Mgoblog?  This is a mind-boggling convergence that causes me to question the very nature of the universe.  But I think you have made a critical typo.  LH was certainly the consensus HGIC, but EC and LB (not LS) were the other contenders.  Did you mean LB?  I'm something of an authority on this.  LH EC LB SA DG and JT surprised my 13-day when their trip showed up at Eustache during our rest day.  Still the highest concentration of beautiful yet convened in one place and time.

 

UPDATE: Misopogon has graciously corrected the typo.

hfhmilkman

July 27th, 2011 at 10:18 AM ^

I have made this comment in other posts.  In my opinion the better comparison is Hoke to Weis.  You can make a better comparison of R^2 to Willingham.  Here are the similiarities.

Willingham and R^2 were considered outsiders who were not the first choice and who were hated by the establishment from day one because they were outsiders.

For various reasons neither had much success thus giving ammo to the haters.

The AD who hired them left and was replaced by someone who did on day one did not like them.

Both were replaced by popular unknowns who had charisma and dubious backgrounds for predicting football success.  I would say no college hc experience and a career sub five hundred record as equally dubious.  Both new hires were loved by the insiders.

Both inherited teams that saw almost the entire starting roster returning.

Both generated massive hype and a very succesful first year of recruiting.

what happens next?   I don't know. 

 

plev72

July 27th, 2011 at 10:39 AM ^

1) I miss the old commitment charts with the sad joshs and company - those didn't survive the collaboration did they? If so - link to updated ones?

2) Thanks for the heads up on Alphas - between stationed in Europe and TDY all the damn time to Africa, it's hard to keep up on the latest shows :-)

 

Paul

blueinwinston

July 27th, 2011 at 12:41 PM ^

Awhile back Brian said something like, "Michigan's fans would eat themselves and the program if they could."  Judging by the back and forth over the last few days on the board I have to agree with that sentiment.  

Alvin Wistert

July 27th, 2011 at 2:54 PM ^

"This is unfair to judge the coaches against each other. Rodriguez was hired in November and was taking over a Citrus-bound program with a retiring Hall of Fame coach, while Hoke was hired in the middle of January after a blowout Gator loss and following a fired guy."

 

Rich was hired December 17, 2007  not November 2007 compared to Brady Hoke being hired January 11, 2011.  Not stating which had a better starting recruiting class just pointing out that Rich was not hired in November and if I remember correctly Rich was hired the day before the December recruiting dead period.  This is not a comparison to which first recruiting class was/is better.