OT: Deron Williams Traded to Nets
Swapping B1G Point Guards:
The Jazz just traded Deron Williams (Illinois) to the Nets for Devin Harris (Wisconsin), Derrick Favors, and a bunch of draft picks. I was shocked to hear this after Deron WIlliams ran Jerry Sloan out of town and thought some people might be interested.
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:38 AM ^
You're not funny you know. I just thought you should know that.
/s
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:54 AM ^
Thanks. Haha. I abide.
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:38 AM ^
remember when they used to make meaningful mid-season trades?
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:48 AM ^
... only a loaded Sparty alum would want to buy that steaming pile for $400 MM plus.
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:53 PM ^
Gores must obviously be a sharp guy, and his pile is many times bigger than mine will ever be, but does he look like a cheesy, grown-up Sparty, or what?
I believe he represents the life goal of guys like this:
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:31 PM ^
Only one that I can think of was Sheed, that was a great move by JD to put us over the hump. Since then though...... UGGHH.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:46 PM ^
Some things I say with a straight face when I'm lying. Other things I say with a tear when I realize it's true.
Signed,
Inconsolable
February 23rd, 2011 at 2:38 PM ^
+1 for remembering Dale Davis. When he was with the Pacers in his prime he was a solid big man. With the Pistons.... Uhh not so much, dude could barely move anymore.
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:42 PM ^
But maybe this will be a lesson, don't talk about where you want to play in 3/4 years down the road, while you're playing somewhere else.
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:46 AM ^
Wow...i really did not see this coming.
Gonna throw a monkey wrench into my FanBasketball league.
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:49 AM ^
Jerry Sloan quits as an experiment to test his hypothesis that he is more valuable than the star PG. After he quits, the team goes into the tank, therefore proving Sloan's hypothesis. Now the team trades Williams out of town and comes begging for the coach to come back. All the while, Jerry is sitting in his mansion...
Excellent...excellent.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:25 PM ^
That would be amazing if Sloan came back. Would be an unbelievable story. If any league could have a scenario play out like that it would be the NBA.
Although in this case I don't believe that really is the plan.
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:50 AM ^
The Knicks just got totally played. Nets bid up the price on Carmelo even though they never had a real shot at getting him, then get a better overall player and give up way less to get him the next day. No one will care about them still, but glad to see they finally got the star they were looking for.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:36 PM ^
D Williams is definitely better than Harris, but Harris is no slouch. I'd take Harris over Rodney Stuc-Stuck-Stuckey as Mason likes to call him.
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:05 PM ^
I was talking about Deron Williams being better overall than Carmelo. Melo scores 4 more points per game, but that is all he does better. Deron is a floor general who creates for other players. With regards to Harris...I think there is a reason he's been rumored in every Nets trade for the last 2 years. Can't comment too much on Stuckey because I'm not a Pistons fan and don't watch, but I do know that he hasn't been the Billups replacement he was supposed to be. Or anywhere close to that.
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:53 PM ^
Very interesting definition of "played." Even taking as a given DW is better than Melo (and it's debatable) - Knicks also got Billups, who is a significant upgrade at PG from Felton by any metric other than age, and expires in 2012. Shockingly, the Nets didn't get an agreement from Deron to extend, so they traded away most of their team for 1.5 guaranteed years of a great player. More shockingly, they didn't even TALK to him before the trade was done, and he was shocked about it and is pissed off.
So this year, no playoffs for the Nets because of the hole they're in. Next year, maybe playoffs (though the team sucks outside of Deron, and I'm including that no-rebounding stiff Lopez), and then you lose Deron in all likelihood. As Denver admits Melo would not go to Nets, and NY knew this, it is HIGHLY unlikely they bid up the price for Melo. So explain again how the Knicks got played here, and how the Nets are doing great?
February 23rd, 2011 at 2:05 PM ^
I'd have to disagree that Chauncey is a "significant upgrade" from Felton. Felton is averaging more points, rebounds, and assists than Chauncey this season. Couple that with adding an age difference of 8 years, an unfamiliar uptempo system that Chauncey has never played in before, and the fact that he just got traded away from his hometown against his will and the Knicks have a significant DOWNGRADE at the point.
I admire his abilities but they may have just traded away their PG of the future and will need to draft another one pretty soon.
February 23rd, 2011 at 2:14 PM ^
Multiple issues with that. First off is usage - Per 36 minutes, Billups is averaging more points on fewer shots than Felton. CB's true shooting % this year is over 100 points higher than Felton's. You're wrong about the uptempo system. While the Knicks are the second fastest offense in the NBA, the Nuggs are 3rd. CB's Pick & Roll #s last year (all I could find) were better than Felton's both as passer and scorer (seems fair - neither had Amare or the Knicks system to play with/in). Felton is, at best, a marginally better defender even 8 years younger.
And most importantly, Felton has regressed over the last month. I've watched every game. Dude is a fundamentally average PG who was enjoying a David Lee-like bump in #s by playing for D'Antoni. He wasn't the PG of the future, whatever happens (also more likely they sign/trade for a PG in 2012 with CB's expiring contract). Billups is an upgrade, period.
February 23rd, 2011 at 2:45 PM ^
If you want to use stats like points per minute, then Kevin Martin is the 2nd best player in the NBA.
Bottom line (as you said), the Knicks will be looking for a new PG in a few years. If no teams are willing to trade, then they've got a limited supply of draft picks to draw from to find their PG.
February 23rd, 2011 at 3:26 PM ^
Points per minute =/= points per 36 minutes. True shooting % is far more valuable in determining scoring efficiency than FG% or points per game. The numbers don't lie - whatever you think of Felton's potential (I'm low on it, but who knows), CB is better today, and runs an extremely fast-paced offense.
Yeah, it's a stop-gap until 2012. But so was Felton. And I mean the Knicks gave up way too much overall. But you can get a Felton almost every year. Far more worried about getting a credible big man, which I suspect is impossible.
February 23rd, 2011 at 5:15 PM ^
To each his own on points per game vs. points per minute vs. points per 36 minutes. Just curious what measurable are you using to define the Knicks as the 3rd most fast-paced team in the NBA? If you use field goal attempts, then the Knicks are 22nd while Denver is 3rd.
February 23rd, 2011 at 3:02 PM ^
Let's just take into the fact that you said yourself that the Nuggets admitted Melo would not go to the Nets. If that's true, then the Knicks could have gotten Melo without giving up anything in 5 months. If Melo refused to sign anywhere besides the Knicks and the Knicks knew this, then it's pretty clear they were bidding against themselves.
Secondly, the Nets did not "trade away most of their team." They swapped Devin Harris for Deron Williams (enormous upgrade) and threw in Derrick Favors (who knows how he'll turn out), in addition to a first-round pick this year and next (they still have first-round picks in both years I believe). That is hardly most of their team. The Knicks are the one's who traded away most of their team. Starting PG (Felton), Starting SF (Chandler), Starting PF (Galo), 2 first round picks and a couple fillers. In return they did get Billups who is horrible for the system Mike D'Antoni runs, is way older and makes twice as much as Felton. The Knicks have no flexibility to do anything with their roster until 2012. Their team as constructed will be 4th or 5th max in the East until then. And as everyone has said already...they will not be able to sign a max free agent in 2012 under the new CBA. They pretty much have what they have.
As for the Williams contract extension...he can't sign an extension until this summer at the earliest, so it's not that shocking. The reason he was upset about the trade is that he found out about it on the SportsCenter bottom line instead of being told by the Jazz. In the new CBA there will probably be a "franchise tag" or some other kind of heavy incentive to stay with your current team, so there's a good chance he will end up staying there somehow. That's why I think this is great for the Nets. Probably winning around 45 games next year and you have a superstar on your team who will make those around him better and the flexibility to make more moves down the road.
February 23rd, 2011 at 3:45 PM ^
Just for fun, I'll humor you.
1) Melo was unwilling to become a free agent because of CBA uncertainty. That means he was going to sign an extension somewhere. That does NOT mean there were no other teams he would go to or no other offers. It also doesn't mean that he wouldn't just sign it with Denver and say trade me over the summer. Acting like the Knicks were bidding against themselves ignores the fact that Melo would not become a FA. This may or may not have been a bad deal by the Knicks, but only delusional Nets fans are taking credit for the Nuggs haul.
2) LOL at "threw in" a top 10 pick. Favors is the core of that deal - Harris has very little value the way he's played. They gave up a lot for Williams. Not a crazy amount though. They did give up "the whole team" because that team has NO talent on it except Lopez and Williams now. I've watched them over and over (live in NY, the games are local) - the Nets are a terrible team. I know what terrible teams look like because I was a Knicks fan the last 10 years.
3) You're talking out of your ass about Billups, but I've made that argument above.
4) So the Knicks lack flexibility until... next year? So what? I've seen them without it for 5 years. They've got 4 guys they love starting, and will go after spare parts for the rest. It's the Heat plan. It will probably not get them a title, but I can't imagine how this explains why the Knicks got played by the NETS, which is somehow what you are attempting to argue. That team doesn't need another max guy to compete for a title. Further, acting like it's BAD that Billups is getting paid 2x what Felton made is insane - his contract is a far better expiring deal when you want to make a change in 2012 (oh man, there's flexibility again). I wouldn't do it, but Fields-Billups-1st round pick for Paul in 2012 is very possible, as one example.
5) I am a fan of the Nets making this move. But pinning your hopes on the owner or a "probable" franchise tag (that's a TOTAL overstatement of how likely that is) is silly. It's a move that gives them a chance to be far less terrible. If he stays, you're in good shape, but blindsiding the guy and sending him to a bottom feeding team doesn't make that extremely likely. 45 wins next year is only possible if you drastically improve - we're talking a BIG FA signing at a minimum. The Knicks, with a star and a MUCH better supporting cast than the Nets before this trade (that cast beat your whole team in NJ w/o Amare), were maybe winning 45 this year. And nobody will come unless Deron says he'll stay, which again, is just something you hope, not something likely. Melo wouldn't come under any circumstances, nobody would come last summer - all coincidences?
If Knicks fans are saying "TITLE TIME BOYYY" then they're delusional. But Nets fans pretending 1) they're suddenly relevant, 2) they "played" the Knicks, or 3) they're guaranteed 35+ wins next year with this team as currently constructed are just as nuts.
February 23rd, 2011 at 5:47 PM ^
First of all...I'm not a Nets fan at all. I'm from Chicago, I'm a Bulls fan. So A) I'm objective about this; B) I know what shitty teams look like, too ; C) You're wrong to say that only "Nets fans" think their deal is good and that they drove up the price on the Knicks. I have no dog in this fight, so I'm not delusional. Many people who know way more about basketball than you or I are saying the exact same thing I am.
My point about flexibility is that you have no room to add the max free agent (CP3) that you need to make the Melo deal better than the Williams deal. $40 million to two guys who will score, granted, but also don't play any defense leaves you what to fill out the rest of the team? The fact that you gave up so many core pieces or tradeable assets is a significant handicap.
Look, I'm not saying the Knicks won't be better. They will. Are they a top tier team that will scare me come playoff time? Not really. Because they don't play defense and will have replacement-level players surround Amare and Melo down the road. If the Nets can sign D-Will (granted, that is uncertain) to go along with Lopez (who I think actually is a pretty good player and will get better with a great PG) and the ability to add some role players is more formidable long-term in my opinion.
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:52 AM ^
This seems like a bad trade for the nets. Deron Williams is obviously an incredible point guard (this season hes averagine 21.3 pts and 9.7 assists), but this doesnt make sense to me. Williams is a free agent at the end of next season. He has publicly stated that he wants to come to the knicks. But giving up harris (who is averaging 15pts and 7.6 assists), and derick favors who was the number 3 pick in the 2010 draft, and some picks, seems like an overly steep price for a guy who may leave at the end of next yr. and Its not lot they can make the playoffs this yr.
The nets have a boatload of first round picks. their strategy should be to draft and develop a young core. getting deron williams, who may be gone after 2012, doesnt really help. whereas having favors, who they could sign to a longterm contract at the end of his rookie contract, would have been a good start.
unless the nets get additional pieces (which reports havent mentioned), or unless they have reason to think williams will sign an extension, I dont think this is a smart move.
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:56 AM ^
Don't doubt the Russian billionaire. Before next year's trade deadline you can guarantee Prokhorov is going to do absolutely everything to get Deron some more legitimate players to surround him (outside of Lopez). He's not doing this to just give him away for nothing at the end of the 2011-2012 season.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:13 PM ^
and that's pretty much it now that Favors is gone. The Nets are going to have high draft pick plus some draft picks from the trade. Mikhail will open his wallet to spend big money to lure FA players.
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:55 PM ^
Same issue as last year for the Nets though. Nobody wanted to come and play with their shitty roster. So suddenly, you get one year of a disgruntled PG, and NOW the FAs will come running? And (not that you suggested this) this will all work about because trust the Russian billionaire? I must be missing something.
Also, Lopez is a stiff who couldn't lead his team to a win over the Knicks without Amare. Just sayin.
February 23rd, 2011 at 2:22 PM ^
is infinitely better than the Nets.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:48 PM ^
Deron could be willing to stay since they should be in Brooklyn by then with hopefully a new nickname and logo.
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:57 AM ^
Under the new CBA the Knicks may be unable to afford a third star, especially if Carmelo gets anything close to what he's asking.
I think it was a silly trade, too, but don't know that Williams will be running to the Knicks.
February 23rd, 2011 at 2:34 PM ^
On a side note, anyone want a nuggets Melo jersey? Front page of yahoo had a story about a Denver sports store that had the jersey's priced for $350.00 now on sale for $75.00. Does anyone else think $350 is just outrageous for jersey.
February 23rd, 2011 at 11:57 AM ^
Williams has only stated he wanted to play in New York, not necessarily for the Knicks only. That leaves the door open for the Brooklyn Nets. I'm suspecting the Knicks will pursue CP3 really hard this offseason (which is what the Nets are hoping) thus leaving Deron Williams as the posterboy for the new Brooklyn franchise - assuming he really wants to stay in NYC.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:52 PM ^
Espn and Fox Sports are reporting D Will was completely blindsided by this trade and that he is not very happy. The Russian Billionaire better have a plan to build a solid squad around him, that's their only chance of keeping D Will. Otherwise he's got a rental player for a season and a half.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:16 PM ^
Have they not gotten Williams to an extension?
Also I thinK Carmelo is probably a better player than Deron Williams, no?
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:29 PM ^
Deron Williams >>>> Carmelo Anthony
Arguably the best point guard in the league and dynamic play maker. Carmelo will create for himself, but is a bit a of a black hole on offense.
Nets still have 3 first round draft picks over the next two drafts, and will maintain cap flexibility under the soon to be new collective bargaining agreement. Very impressive positioning by NJ.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:50 PM ^
That threesome will be better than what they have down in Miami simply by the fact that they'll have a great point guard. Plus I think Amare is way better than Bosh.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:55 PM ^
LeBron is essentially a point guard in a power forward's body.
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:05 PM ^
Again, assuming they give Carmelo a max deal - which is likely - they will not have enough room under the cap for another max free agent.
I really don't think Melo or CP3 are going to leave $20 or $30M on the table to play with one another.
February 24th, 2011 at 12:07 AM ^
Assuming Amares knee won't blow up in the next year.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:49 PM ^
rather have a top 3 point guard than a scorer that can't play defense.
no extension for Williams yet. They have 1.5 seasons to convince him to stay, I'm sure Prokhorov can think of something.
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:58 PM ^
Missing the point - would you rather have that scorer PLUS a big upgrade at PG than one and a half years of Deron? That's the question. And there is no reason to think that he'll stay past 2012 other than blind faith in an owner who, with enough space for 2.5 max deals last year, attracted literally zero FA interest.
When did Prokhorov become the pre-coaching search Dave Brandon?
February 23rd, 2011 at 2:14 PM ^
I don't consider chauncey a "big" upgrade from Felton; Felton was having a solid season and he is much more suited to run D'Antoni's offense than Billups. Plus, with Billups in the last year of his salary in 2012, he'll either be gone during next season and certainly afterwards, since the Knicks will most likely go after chris paul, who will have to take a pay cut to sign with the Knicks. Or by saying "big upgrade at PG" were you already banking on the possibility that the Knicks would pick up Paul after the 2012 season?
The nets can sign Williams to a max contract at any point after this season. He wanted to go to NY, it was just a question of what team, and the Knicks can't offer him the max. Prokhorov has 1.5 years to convince him that Brooklyn, Barclays Center, and a young, developing team is the right fit for him. I agree its a risky move but I think it was worth doing.
February 23rd, 2011 at 3:55 PM ^
It's possible "big" upgrade (and I meant Billups over Felton) was a bit much, but it's certainly an upgrade right this minute. Felton is average, and as I explained above, is not far more suited than Billups to run this offense. I am convinced that we'll be well positioned in 2012 too, but who knows how that'll go (and we're totally out of assets).
I've followed all of this closely, and at no time did Deron say he wanted NY and didn't care which team. He denies even saying he wanted the Knicks, fwiw. I agree that the Knicks will probably not get him as a FA in 2012, but the only people who think the Nets are an attractive destination even in BKLYN are Nets fans. Not any free agents, who wouldn't come for max deals, or Carmelo, who was born there. Maybe the owner can convince him, but only if you get another big signing, because that team as currently constructed is one of the 3-4 worst in the league outside of Williams. All of that said, I agree this was a good move for the Nets, just not as good as the Knicks' move was for them unless you can get DW to sign an extension AND recruit another big name to play with him.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:50 PM ^
Williams had no clue he was about to be traded.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:25 PM ^
The odds of Nets getting anyone resembling Deron's talent in the draft was slim to none (particularly in this year's weak draft). In two years they would have to pay Lopez big money or let him walk. Just gambling on lucking into a good draft pick hasn't worked for them for the past five years, and doesn't justify giving up a shot at one of the top 2 point guards in the game (and one who actually has cartilage in his knee).
With the upcoming CBA (which many think will include a "franchise player") tag, they have an excellent shot of re-signing Williams. They also now have an asset who, along with the upcoming Brooklyn move, can lure other top-tier free agents -- something they were notably missing in this year's free agent class.
There is now a clear path to success. Sign a solid (but not max contract) free agent this year. In 2012, sign and trade Lopez for Dwight Howard. Voila, championship contender.
Obviously there's no guarantee these things happen or that this works out, but as the world's only Nets fan I'm thrilled that there's now hope and excitement on this team for the first time in a long while
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:07 PM ^
I have also thought about the Nets doing a sign and trade with Lopez for Howard, highly unlikely, but it could be a possibility. I personally think Howard would rather stay in Orlando that end up in Brooklyn, but who knows.
I think we can agree as the only 2 Nets fans in the world, that we need to get rid of Outlaw ASAP if we ever want to be a decent team.
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:13 PM ^
Unfortunately, we're stuck with that anchor, at least until the final year of his contract. Who would want him?
February 23rd, 2011 at 1:12 PM ^
At no point did Deron Williams publically state that he wants to go to the Knicks.
February 23rd, 2011 at 12:01 PM ^
I'm a UM fan from NJ and I also happen to be a big Nets fan. Yes these last couple years have been rough for me across sports. I love the trade because at this point, the Nets are done with Devin Harris. He's injury-prone and all this trade speculation has really strained the relationship. As far as Favors is concerned, he's 19 and has an incredibly high ceiling, physically gifted and seriously athletic. At this point, a lot is going to depend on how he develops his offensive back to the basket game to determine if he is Kevin Garnett or [Insert name of random athletic 4 man here]. The Nets also gave up 2 picks and Murphy's expiring contract but they got back Branden Wright [Random athletic 4 man (injury prone)] and Gadzuric both with expiring contracts. They maintained cap flexibility with the trade and managed to get a player who I think is better for the future than Harris and Favors.
A lot will have to do on whether or now D-Will will sign an extension after the next year, but the Knicks don't have room for him with Melo and Stoud both getting their max contracts. As opposed to what happend in Miami, only D-Will or CP3 would take a big paycut to play with the other 2.