OT - Team LeBron or Team MJ?
Reading up this morning on the GOAT debate over at ESPN, and was just curious to which camp you are all in? It maybe a generation thing, but I think MJ's path to success was more....."un-artficial"
MJ didn't have "decisions" and hop around to teams to chase championships. He made his teamates better, not his situation better. What do you all think?
Go Blue!
Lebron is 7-14 on buzzer beats vs Jordan's 5-11
Their player efficiency ratings are about the same as well (Lebron sitting at 27 and Jordan at 28)
This debate is dumb but here we are.
Lebron has an average jumper. If you put him in Jordan's era the "fouls" he receives would no longer go that way forcing him to drive to the basket less. Against physical teams who protect the rim he wouldn't be the same guy.
Jordan would excel MORE in this era. Edit: Jordan did more with less and arguably against harder competition.
End debate.
6-0 in Finals.
Every appearance in Finals = Finals MVP.
Never needed a game 7 in any Finals.
All milestones reached in fewer games than LBJ.
Terry Bradshaw is the second best QB in NFL history. 4-0 in the Super Bowl, 2 SB MVPs.
Lebron's never lost in the first round of the playoffs, Jordan lost 3 times including getting swept once.
Is it more impressive to drag a worse team to the finals and lose, or lose early but have a perfect finals record?
These types of arguments are easy to make, but don't provide much value on their own.
MJ played in the NBA when there was the greatest collection of talent in the history of the NBA. And he was the best of them all. He is the GOAT!!!
Lebron is a great player and contends for the #2 of all time with Kobe, Kareem, Magic, Wilt and Bill Russell.
Basketball fans can have spicy but reasonable arguments about whether MJ or Bron is GOAT. But Kobe at #2? It's almost inconceivable to me that someone could take a hard and honest look at his record compared to Duncan's and say that Kobe's is more impressive, let alone compared to guys like Bron, Kareem, Wilt.
I loved '80s NBA -- I never missed a game as a kid, and I still love going back and watching clips of Magic, Bird, Nique, Barkley, et al.
But right this instant, you could put together a starting 5 of Steph, Harden, Bron, KD, and Brow. No moment-in-time lineup of the '80s comes even close to that. And the modern-day bench is deeper. Nostalgia is a powerful thing, but the quality of play in the NBA right now is better than any basketball that's ever been played in previoius eras, and I don't think it's all that close.
Different eras: different concentration of talent, game is/was called a different way. Yeah, you can like one more than the other, but you're not being objective. No matter which stat you pull or achievement/accolade you romanticize, it's just as easy to poke holes in either side's argument. It's a push.
I probably lean MJ but the arguments made for him by people in this thread and against Lebron are so bad. Lebron is probably the most physically gifted player of all time, Jordan had a competitive streak that drove him unlike anyone else that just puts him over the top.
Michael won absolutely nothing until they provided him with another top 25 all time player and another all-star. Not to mention role players who excelled at their roles.
Nobody has ever won in this league without the proper mix of talent around them.
If Pippen never comes along, this conversation isn't happening.
But, he did. And MJ remains the most dominant player on a basketball court I've ever seen until LeBron. I'd give the edge to MJ, but its close.
But LeBron is all time top 5. LeBron does not get enough credit for his ability to elevate his teammates. Better passer than MJ
are pretty dumb (no offense).
however, I would have liked to see the two of them go at it -
that would have been something.
I'd take Lebron any day, but I'd also take Bird or Magic before Jordan. Jordan was great, but these guys make the game fun and everyone around them better. Jordan is in the same group with Kobe, Russ and McGrady. Great individual players, but not my type of player. I did look up all of their regular season and playoff stats, very similar and not much room for argument there.
Wow! Just wow!
Lebron is only one of many great players in the game today. He also gets over hyped on social media. Even fake news. There was a tweet from a sports stat company saying he was the first to have over 40 points and 14 rebounds in a playoff game. Yet magic did it in the finals as a rookie.
Lebron will be the first to tell people he’s the greatest. Jordan didn’t have to.
I'm a 90s kid, so by default I'm on Team MJ. LeBron's late career bloom is, however, making this debate harder.
A couple of perhaps salient observations:
-If you are debating "who left a bigger imprint on the game of basketball", LeBron has a LONG way to go to catch MJ. MJ and Nike created (or at least scaled to infinity) the concept of the endorsement shoe. Jordan brand is third to Nike and Adidas in basketball shoes sold and still has cachet (at least with old sneakerheads like me). He also went on to become a (admittedly mediocre) NBA team owner, one of the few former players to do so. I think when you add that to his playing career, that is quite a mark on the game. I don't see LeBron making that big of an impact during his lifetime (though I would love for him to prove me wrong).
-LeBron has accomplished something in the negative that I find incredible: He is one of the few examples of a child athletics prodigy who DIDN'T break down. Think about it - he was christened "The Chosen One" when he was, what, 15? 14? And he never got in trouble? Never had a mental breakdown? Even if that is the product of a good PR team, you have to admit that's remarkable, if only because the only other athlete that might fit that bill is Wayne Gretzky. Yeah, he's petulent, switched teams in a somewhat a$$hole way, and I'm not sure I would wan to grab a beer with him. But he has delivered on his promise for close to 20 years at the highest level. That's something. Given all the flameouts I've seen in my lifetime, I feel that's remarkable.
When Lebron left Cleveland, they proceeded to win 19, 21, 24, and 33 games during his 4 years in Miami.
When Jordan left the Bulls they won 55 and 47 and lost in the Eastern Conference finals both seasons he spent playing baseball (during what the Jordan crowd always argues was a "deeper" league).
The single most impressive thing either of these guys did was Lebron leading BOTH teams in the 2016 final (against the winningest regular season team ever, and against the 2 most recent MVP's) in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals.
I hate the flopping and the decision and how every post game interview is just him talking about himself unless he's specifically prodded about his teammates, but as a player he's the best there's been.
Jordan had one of the biggest egos in the history of the NBA, and talked about himself just as much, if not more than LeBron.
Very true. That HOF speech is brutal.
People falling on either side of the argument.
But I won't accept people saying that it is MJ by a landslide. They are both really, really close to each other. And LeBron has at least another 4-5 years to add onto his legacy. It is not that far-fetched he passes Michael when all is said and done.
Given his sublime offense- that important part of the equation is often overlooked. Lebron's gift is his physical superiority, not many players hang in very well against him when he is coming down the lane.The guy I would like to have seem matched up against though they played different positions was Wilt. The Wilt in his prime, not the guy who most remember from his last 5 or 6 years ( though he was still incerdibly effective) but the leaner, faster version of him through most of the 60s.
I'm going to give Lebron James the nod here. On social matters Lebron James is more vocal while Michael Jordan is mute (is he still alive?). Lebron won a championship for Cleveland. CLEVELAND! MJ had a roster for all hall of fame support; Lebron James does not.
Lebron James is more valuable to the city of Cleveland than MJ to the city of Chicago.
Who has Lebron made better? Lebron.
Not many athletes can compete with Lebron when it comes to social issues and philanthropy. The dude is funding 4-year scholarships for 1,000 something Akron kids.
I know MJ gets flack for being quiet about social issues and politics but the guy also donated 2 million to anti-police brutality organizations and community-police organizations in the past 2 years.
We wear the Jumpman logo, LBJ supports the buckeyes. Debate over.
Great story on this subject. Was riding the train into work and 2 African American guys were having this debate. Older guy, my age around 50, was pro Jordan. Younger guy, late 20's maybe 30ish, was all in for LeBron. I was totally enjoying the debate Finally the older guy guesses that I've listening and enjoying their discussion. Goes "let's ask this guy." I respond "please, are you kidding me, not even a discussion." Older guy goes nuts knowing that just backed him up.
A discussion. That's the stuff that has to stop.
Maybe five years ago it was MJ all the way. Today, it's neck and neck.
In your opinion.
My opinion? That it's not close??
Is that really an opinion? They are the 1st and 2nd best players in the NBA, and it's so damn close that an argument can be made both ways.
They're both fantastic players and would be stars in whatever era they played in. But I think LeBron is a more complete player at his best, and if they switched spots in history Jordan would struggle more now than LeBron would back in the 90s.
I do think there is some revisionist history BS about Jordan; he was a fantastic player, but the era he played in wasn't particularly good overall and he got a little lucky that it was a fallow period between the fall of the Lakers/Celtics/Pistons and the start of the Spurs/Lakers/overall dominance of the West. You look at the teams those Bulls went through for their titles and I don't think any of them save the Sonics were teams I'd consider particularly great.