OT - Team LeBron or Team MJ?
Reading up this morning on the GOAT debate over at ESPN, and was just curious to which camp you are all in? It maybe a generation thing, but I think MJ's path to success was more....."un-artficial"
MJ didn't have "decisions" and hop around to teams to chase championships. He made his teamates better, not his situation better. What do you all think?
Go Blue!
Lebron in Cleveland lately has been doing more with less. The East is pretty weak, to be sure, but Lebron has been carrying a team that can do little to nothing without him. The Cavs without Lebron don't make the playoffs. Most Championship Bulls teams without MJ would make the ECF.
James spent most of his career dragging crappy teams to conference and NBA Finals...it's pretty remarkable.
With exception of Lebron's Miami teams and Cav's Championship team, Lebron has been dragging bums to the Finals year after year.
Jordan lost with subpar players before even getting to the finals.
Yeah, in the current Eastern Conference. Which has been absolutely awful for going on a decade.
MJ was losing to the Celtics & Pistons of the 1980s. Those caliber of teams are all in the Western Conference these days.
You are wrong that "Most Championship Bulls teams without MJ would make the ECF"
The two years that Jordan retired (which were sandwiched between his two sets of thee-peats), almost the exact same team that had won the prior three championships DID NOT MAKE THE NBA FINALS. They lost to teams that didn't even win the championship.
Aren't you calling him wrong for stating what you acknowledge in the very next paragraph: that the Bulls without Jordan made the Eastern Conference Finals?
(maybe I'm missing something)
... is pretty amazing, but the comparison doesn't seem to be all that illuminating. Yes, the Cavs without Lebron (seemingly) wouldn't make the playoffs this year, but what they've done instead is finish fourth in the East and have (thus far) won two playoff series--not win an NBA championship. So, they are currently about "two degrees" better than not making the playoffs. Just as the Bull's teams without Jordan didn't win the NBA championship or the Eastern Conference championship--and so were (roughly) a couple of degrees worse than they were with Jordan.
Now, Cleveland will likely beat the Celtics and go to the finals, but the Celtics are missing their two best players. If the Cavs beat the Warriors or Rockets, then certainly that would be incredible. Maybe Jordan would do less with this year's Cavs... but maybe not. No one can doubt that Lebron is playing out of his mind in the playoffs as a 33 yr. old.
Lebron is the better athlete but Jordan gets the edge as mentally he was a killer.
Agree. LBJ is sometimes a big baby.
I see that a popular LeBron narrative has worked its magic on you. :)
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Player comparison? Too apples-and-oranges for my taste. I'd take Jordan, though.
That narrative exists for a reason.
I don't like this conversation, because it seems silly to nitpick either guy. They are/were both remarkable players. But Jordan was the mentally toughest athlete I think I've seen. He was, as you say, just an absolute killer.
Lebron's similarly athletic to MJ but with superior size and that is his advantage. It is extremely hard to be more athletic than Michael Jeffrey Jordan.
The Black Mamba was better than LeBron. So was Iverson.
Iverson? lol
Kobe was a horrible clutch player and was very below average in crunch time. He’s missed so many clutch shots. And he shoots like 30% in the playoffs for a career. Lebron is a way better all around player, and he makes other players better. Love is and will always be a cancer.
LeBron is the GOAT. Period. #TEAMBRON
I’m team MJ and no one will change my mind...and LeBron would have to do something amazing over then next 10 years to change mind
And he didn't have to hop around the league assembling a supergroup to do it.
If I recall though, free agency didn't really exist back then, right? So he couldn't hop around and it also let the Bulls bring in great players around him and then keep them.
And if he doesn't retire for over a year and a half, you can add another two!
This is a lazy argument. By that definition, bill Russell is the goat. There is more to it than rings.
For example, I would say Dan Marino is greater than Joe Flacco...but nope, because ringzzzz.
You can use it as ONE OF the criteria, but not the sole criterion.
It's only a part in these types of arguments but with MJ vs. Lebron I consider it a tie breaker.
You nailed it - and a big reason why i cannot stand the NBA. Players pick their teams now. They make all-pro teams now. No pride in just getting drafted, sticking with your ream and making the team better.
MJ may be a cocky asshole now, but man he was amazing - made everyone else sooo much better and willed his way to championship after championship. Lebron cannot do what MJ did - even with better players around him.
FWIW, i think MJ was horrible for basketball (not for ratings, for the game itself). When i was growing up, all everyone wanted to do was lower their rims and work on dunks. No one shot free throws anymore or 3 pointers. It was all about how athletic and cool you looked, not about actually playing efficient basketball.
Thank goodness for Curry - i see kids now working on shooting all the time again. Breath of fresh air.
You didn't see people working on their shots until Curry? There's a reason the 3-pointer is more dominant by far now than it's ever been before - its been the hot shot for years. Curry is a product of his time, not vice versa.
As a kid growing up, I wanted to dunk, but I'm a short Asian dude. so instead, I'd practice my buzzer beaters to win the game. Every time I missed, I was fouled. Ever time I missed a free throw, it was a lane violation. I'm pretty sure I won every "game" I played in my head.
Username checks out.
I don't understand this argument. The NBA has always had "super" teams.
The NBA had descended to an unwatchable game that was a hybrid of basketball and wrestling. I am not a fan of the physical style embraced by the Bad Boys. Don't get me wrong, I was a Pistons fan and rooted for Laimbeer, Dumars, the Microwave and James Buddha Edwards. I just hated the way they played. The fast-breaking Bulls of Jordan's first three-peat were far more entertaining to me. I realize that is a personal stylistic preference and others have the right to prefer a more physical style of play.
I would take MJ over LeBron. I would take LeBron over Kobe. One of the TNT guys had Kobe 7th all-time and LeBron 8th. That's just ridiculous, but it says something that a guy who played the game at the highest level thinks that little of LeBron. You will never see someone put Jordan 8th.
Jordan was a great free throw shooter, a very good three point shooter, and an exceptional passer. He was as fundamentally sound in every facet offensively than any NBA player in history. He basically created the post up fadeway that players have been using now for the better part of 30 years. This is a crazy post.
born and raised in Michigan, I'm on team Isiah Thomas.
Seriously though, I still say it's too early to really have this debate. Once Lebron is done, we can go ahead and revisit it but at this point Lebron's career is incomplete.
But MJ was able to get more out of his teammates than LJ, IMO. That is what made him special even if it made him look like a jerk
Don't give a fuck if he went to state, if I had to pick one guy to start my team with, it's him. Amazing playmaker with uncanny length, quickness and basketball IQ. Made every one of his teamates better. Magic was also as clutch as the come (finals vs celtics). Like Lebron, Magic could play all 5 postions in basketball if needed but he also just happened to be the best passer of all time. 5 time champ against those great Celtics teams and the Bad Boyz. I'll take Magic all day everyday.
Hard to argue that pick. In todays game he is less valuable with all the 3 point shooting.
I would say someone like young Lew Alcindor or Wilt Chamberlain, but again, in todays game they are less valuable too.
I would have loved to see Glenn Rice in his prime on a good team in todays game. I think he would light it up.
Glen Rice - still the sweetest jump shot ever.
I am not a Lebron fan. I have rooted against him since day 1 and think man of his antics are bitch boy moves. However, I think he is definitely the best player ever. He is dominant, against much better competition than MJ played against. He is clearly the best athlete in NBA history, among superstars. Guys that big are not supposed to be so springy and fast and graceful.
The one caveat is that its hard to know what MJ's game would have been like in the modern NBA. Would he have forced himself to become an elite 3 pt shooter, and focused on that more than the midrange game? If so, maybe MJ.
needs the rules changes to be correct, from which MJ did not benefit. The rules have changed to allow LBJ to take advantage of his size (which is amazing and so are the things he does with it...)
But if LBJ had played against Jordan's Bulls and their defense, or the BAD BOYS, or Larry Bird and Kevin McHale, he would be injured half the season and need the other half to "rest".
was already pretty solid 3 point shooter. And this is what people don't understand. Jordan was so good that he dictacted what other players could and could not do. You see these guys like Steph Curry and James Harden having a ball jacking 3s from all over the place. Jordan had defensive closing and recovery ability like these players would not believe. He would not shut these guys down completely but he would frustrate the hell out of them and they would not be playing their game.
Can we at least agree that championship Lebron or MJ teams would absolutely annihilate any teams from the 70s or early 80s? Those teams with scrawny white guys running around? Lebron would kill Larry Bird.
If you think Lebron would kill Larry Bird, you must have never watch Bird play.
Lebron would, Kawhi would, KD would, Westbrook would, Harden would, Giannis would, Oladipo would. Among countless others.
You are crazy!
Where your argument fails is since you are putting Bird on the floor at the same time as these others, that means they all have access to the same contemporary nutrition and exercise technology and advancement. If Bird has access to all the modern benefits at his peak he would still be a monster that would dominate.
1 on 1 you are correct because Bird was an average defender at best, but in a team game, Bird's passing, shooting, rebounding, court awareness and leadership would give him the edge.
saw an analysis of LeBron vs. Larry Bird as far as production at age 30. Larry Bird numbers were better. I was surprised. Obviously 1 on 1 LeBron would destroy Bird but in a team sport it is interesting to compare their production numbers.
Lebron is not clutch and does well based on his size and athletic ability. MJ was the most clutch ever, was a fantastic role model and had a shot that ism100x better than Lebron imo.
Actually Lebron has hit more "clutch" shots in the playoffs than MJ.
Granted MJ's most clutch shot came in the Finals.