O.T. 71st Anniversary of D-Day
Thanking all ally nations for the commitment and sacrifices made 71 years ago today. May we always remember D-Day, the start of the end of Hitler's reign of terror.
By June of 44' the war had already turned decisively against Nazi Germany. The tidal wave of humanity called the Red Army was grinding the 200 German divisions into dust as the Allies were landing along the Normandy coast.
announced Germany was at war with the U.S. shortly after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.
Bringing the U.S. to the continent of Europe was his ultimate demise.
The Russians had far more men, tanks, airplances, etc. The Nazis overstretched their lines, lacked the number necessary to crush the Russians(who could give land for time to bring forward reinforcements). Invading Russia was suicide. The Germans never had a chance at winning.
I tend to agree...but if against the odds the Germans had taken Moscow and Leningrad cleanly, I don't think it would have played out the same. Likely some sort of coup or revolt towards Stalin to force him to sue for peace, even with the NKVD as strong as it was.
But yes, monumentally stupid military decision for Hitler to do it. If we didn't go right around to hating the Russians in the Cold War I don't think their sacrifice would be so easily forgotten.
Lack of men plus they were hundreds of miles ahead of their supplies line. Meanwhile the Russians were forming amries in the far eastern reaches of Russia(where they also moved their factories). As Napoleon showed taking Moscow is not a guarantee that you will defeat Russia. Russia is so vast, so widely spread out that it would take a country the size of China to successully invade and occupy it. The Germans bit off more than they could chew.
A revolt against Stalin? That was as likely as Japan beating the US in a sustained conflict.
Please go away.
Also, for the record, Lenin was long dead by the time these events happened. Stalin was in charge... If you're going to make sweeping, jingoistic statements, please at least attempt to construct a reasonable historical framework around them. They're boring otherwise.
MGoBlog. It's apparent that you know as much about WWII as a beetle does about filmmaking.
You're probably correct, though we can never know what would have happened. If the western allies concluded that there would be no invasion of northern Europe it probably follows they didn't think the war worth fighting. If the war wasn't worth fighting that frees up tremendous German resources that can be directed eastward.
If a war against Germany wasn't worth fighting maybe some of those German physists in the US, now without a Manhattan Project* to direct their minds, are recruited by Germany. They show the Germans the error of their nuclear weapon program and it is Germany that first develops "The Bomb." See how we can play these "what if" games?
*Manhattan Project was a response to Nazi Germany and their atomic weapon program, not Japan.
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I'll just say "thank you" to all that served the ally cause during WWII and leave it at that.
Hitler sealed his fate when he didn't do whatever it took to ally with the Soviets. He had no chance in the long game without them. A Soviet/German/Japan alliance would have been a completely different war.
I don't disagree in theory, but it's also fundamentally true that American soldiers got to go home to places that looked essentially identical to those they left behind (wartime economy and all), while Europeans went home to essentially 25 years of rebuilding. Britain was still rationing for another decade! American cities weren't leveled to the ground. Our roads weren't destroyed. Our industry wasn't decimated--in fact, the war helped our industrial economy for decades to come. You could make the argument that parts of Europe are still rebuilding in one way or another 70 years later.
And to echo the other comments, speaking as someone who had relatives who fought for the Soviet and American sides, I tend to think the Cold War has made Americas tone deaf to considering the sacrifices Soviet citizens made during the war. They were doing things like moving factories brick by brick (literally) to move industry farther behind the front. People were dying carrying other people to be buried. There were instances of absolutely horrific famine, disease, and make-ends-meet sacrifice that make the American Great Depression look like a Thanksgiving feast. There's a reason 90 year old people in Russia still squeeze into their uniforms and parade down the street--those people gave everything during the war. They don't call it the Great Patriotic War for nothing.
Yeah, this is the most rational post in the thread...besides, we are remembering D-Day here.
Thank you. Let's not play Left Ditch vs. Right Ditch here.
The role the Russians played in defeating Hitler is way understated in this country. That should be corrected.
But the way to correct in is not to inaccurately belittle the role of the US, and also Britain. The US fought and won a war on two fronts, supplied all the allies, and won total air superiority every where they fought. The contribution of the US was indeed "huge".
and you and others seem to be saying it can't happen because American's who fought didn't suffer as much as the Russians or weren't really necessary. Tell that to the guys who were in miserable weather dodging bullets and to the family that has to deal with the grief when they didn't dodge fast enough. No one suffered more than those in the concentration camps. How is any of this relevant other than it was a team effort that ended the war and as Americans we honor those who fought for us.
This isn't a contest. It's about joining together to stop a lunatic who wanted to control the world and honoring those who stopped it. Turning it into a thread of "They really didn't win it" or "They didn't sacrifice as much as someone else" is bullshit done by people who never had to be in that position. I was fortunate enough not to have to fight because of the sacrifices of these men and for that I'm very grateful. Many people of many different nationalities gathered together to put the country in a position where I could say that and I'm grateful for all of them and very proud of the Americans who served a very important part of it and it starts with those who did what seemed impossible by battling on the shores of Normandy.
And regardless how you determine the ultimate end if the USA didn't go in, the US didn't have to go in and did which ended the war much sooner and saved the world from years of additional war and helped free millions of people from the Nazi's much sooner than it would have otherwise happened. That can't be denied.
Because there are those that never miss a chance to denigrate the USA and its positive contributions to the world. They do so under the banner of being reasonable and objective, though they lose their objectivity, in this case about WWII in Europe, by denigrating contributions by the USA.
Anybody happen to know them offhand?
The Aleutian Islands and the German U-Boat stuff in the Atlantic?
Then in May, 1945 there were the civilian deaths in Oregon. 5 children and a pregnant woman were killed by a bomb carried by a Japanese fire balloon.
over 80% of Germany's casualties were sustained on the Eastern front, so that should tell you the Russians got the Nazi's best shot despite being at war with Britain, USA etc. My 2 cents are that Germany could no longer win the war with the goals Hitler had in mind once he failed to take Moscow in 1941. The defeat at Stalingrad meant Germany would lose the war, and the defeat at Kursk guaranteed total defeat. By July 1943 the end was a matter of when not if
for those in the East that afterward were subject to Soviet authority.
Stalin killed tens of millions of his own people over his tenure.
You are ignoring the obvious if you think America didn't win WWII in a way worth winning for Western Europe.
Because the invasion of Russia will go down as quite possibly the the dumbest (lucky for us) decision in modern military history.
Germany had Russia on the ropes late in 1941. Germany might well have defeated Russia that fall and changed the eventual course of history. Many in the UK and the USA thought that was the likely outcome.
Germany's fatal mistake was delaying Operation Barbarossa until June 22nd. It was originally scheduled to launch in early May. Had Germany not delayed, they very likely would have achieved their military objectives before the onset of winter.
Blame the Italians, who had botched their invasion of Greece, which brought Britian into Greece (itself a mistake, for it divided Britian's already meager resources in Egypt and eastern Africa, allowing Rommel to make his advances and threaten the Suez), which triggered Hitler's decision to delay Barbarossa until he'd secured his southern flank.
There was zero tactical advantage of invading Russia at the time.
Oil. Germany needed it; Russia had it.
Barbarossa is viewed as a blunder only in retrospect. Late in 1941 many in the UK and the US thought it likely Russia would lose. The prospect of that -- remember, this would have been prior to US entry after Pearl Harbor -- would have been catastrophic to Britian.
Germany came very close to pulling it off. Very close.
But those are differences in opinion between you and me. We can't prove anything in the dim light of 74 years of history.
Where has anyone belittled Americans' sacrifices during the war?
You did.
"but it's also fundamentally true that American soldiers got to go home to places that looked essentially identical to those they left behind (wartime economy and all), while Europeans went home to essentially 25 years of rebuilding. Britain was still rationing for anotherdecade! American cities weren't leveled to the ground. Our roads weren't destroyed. Our industry wasn't decimated--in fact, the war helped our industrial economy for decades to come. You could make the argument that parts of Europe are still rebuilding in one way or another 70 years later."
As if to make it sound like it was all just a cakewalk for the US.
There were a lot of very painful sacrifices in this country, independent of your "measuring stick" of the sacrifices of other countries.
It's OK. We can acknowledge the sacrifices and accomplishments of events like D-Day without people coming out of the woodwork and giving their "Other countries suffered way more, so therefore your suffering doesn't count" speech.
Feel free to start your own Eurpoean WWII suffering thread if you feel you need to.
If that's what you want to read into that... Yawn.
It's not belitting to point out facts. Facts that seemingly offend you.Normandy was not a necessary event for the Germans to be defeated.
That it was a courageous, heroic event there is no doubt. But it's importance is behind Stalingrad and a half-dozen Eastern front battles.
would have been a wonderful outcome for Western Europe.
It was pretty damn important to those that got to live under Western European governments after the war. More important to the Western Europeans (and to those who would become the West Germans).
Also by late 43/early 44, with the ability of the 8th to escort bombers deep within Germany... Daylight precision bombing became a reality. The 8th Air Force and the RAF, were methodically destroying Germany's ability to wage war. A prime example, was the serious drop in Germany's synthetic oil production.