Lloyd Carr Appreciation Thread
I hope all of you appreciate now how DIFFICULT it is to win 8 to 10 games, win/compete for B1G championships, and go to a bowl game EVERY YEAR!
Coach Carr was pushed out by people (this site included) who thought any idiot off the street can do what Carr did year after year. After two coaches and too many embarrassing loses later, we all know the truth now.
Coaching football in NCAA is hard. Not very many people are good at it. It is difficult even when you have the enormous resources that this great university can provide.
I hope you remember that for the next coach and beyond.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:21 PM ^
Even after the last 7 years, this may not end well
October 1st, 2014 at 3:06 PM ^
He didn't finish with a bang in terms of the overall season in 2007, but he did leave with a bang in the bowl game and left us with the blue print for an innovative passing spread offense that utilized players meant for traditional pro formations. That single game made me despise Lloyd Carr for years because it made me think "what could've been." Seven years later, I'd like to thank him for the blue print for what Michigan needs to become this year and seasons to come. I hate to say this, but Nuss needs to reach out to DeBord for some advice. Old Mike is working in the Athletic Department, so he's not far away.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:31 PM ^
but his arrognace cost us getting Les Mles and started us down this path.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:51 PM ^
Agreed, but he unwittingly gave us the blueprint for how Michigan needs to move offensively now and into the future. He took a pro-style, manball type offense and converted into a high-powered, passing spread between the OSU game and the Capital One Bowl in 2007. If there's going to be a coaching change, or if Hoke has a prayer the rest of the season, this is the virtually pain-free blue print to succeed with our current personnel. No need for a coach to say they need "our kind of guys" to succeed. Utilize the players you have and use schemes and call plays that utilize their skill sets. Most NFL teams are running a passing spread offense anyway, so this will go over well with future recruits.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:49 PM ^
had some of the most talent laden teams ever to play college football.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:33 PM ^
Carr learned how to use the spread better than Florida. It was awesome watching the team in that game. The fact that Carr got this done after the season ended and implemented successfully it in a bowl game is a testament to his coaching skills. Let's honor the guy who brought us our only national championship in the modern age and acknowledge that his teams always had a tough relentless defense. I got frustrated with him at times too, but he had an outstanding record and was flexible enough to modernize the offense in '07.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:21 PM ^
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
October 1st, 2014 at 2:24 PM ^
You do realize Carr was fully at the helm during The Horror and the Oregon destruction that followed right? You also realize Carr did very little to help Michigan along after he was replaced, and actually potentially hindered the process by encouraging kids to transfer right?
Carr is appreciated for his tenure as coach, but in context to the last 7 years, and his support/involvement to mitigate the bloodshed, he is not appreciated.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:32 PM ^
the guy gave 27 years to the University, he doesn't owe them anything
October 1st, 2014 at 2:34 PM ^
Not saying he does, but point is I wouldn't say a Lloyd Appreciation thread is warranted under these circumstances, including the fact that it opens up the possibility of some Lloyd bashing (see below) that really is a bad idea at this time in particular while the man's grandson is terminally ill.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:20 PM ^
Then GTF off the "Lloyd Carr Appreciation Thread." Lloyd was one of THE BEST coaches ever at Michigan, whether you want to acknowledge that or not. Also, a lot of the BS rumor, gossip, etc. about his departure is just that. You don't know.
Carr was and still is one hell of a community guy, on top of everything else. Ask Lloyd's PLAYERS what they think of him. I would defend a good man like Lloyd even if I got negged to zero.
Sincere and heartfelt thanks, Mr. Carr.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:17 PM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 9:02 PM ^
"And by the way, at the time he assraped"
I'm quoting this so that you know EXACTLY where I stopped reading.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:46 PM ^
App State gets blown up as the worst thing ever for no apparent reason. Plenty of good programs have lost to worse teams. Michigan finished up a 4 year sweep of MSU that year and beat Tebow in a bowl game. That was a damned good year. We may not see its like for a while.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:49 PM ^
9-4 is not a ''damn good year'' at Michigan. Especially after being picked to win the national title and starting the year preseason #5. It was just another underachieving team Lloyd put on the field.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:52 PM ^
Case in point: 2008-2014, minus 2011.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:05 PM ^
I would still consider 11-2 as a damn good year at Michigan...despite the fact that we've only won 11 games a handful of times.
9-4...no. 9-4 is a damn good year at Minnesota.
9-4 isn't even a damn good year at MSU anymore.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:16 PM ^
That's why I removed 2011 from the body of evidence. However, compared with any of the years 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013 and almost certainly 2014, going 9-4 while winning 2/3 against our rivals and winning a bowl game would constitute a major achievement--even considering the horror of the Horror and the post-apocalyptic Oregon game.
This is a sign of how far we've fallen.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:43 PM ^
9-4 is a great year for Michigan now. Maybe the new guy brings a quarterback with him, that would cure a lot of ills, but this team is not good at football. Regardless of who is coaching them, they're probably not going to be good for a while. You may want to adjust your expectations to the new normal.
A great year UNDER LLOYD CARR was probably 2 losses or less. That is no longer the case. I believe that may have been the point of this whole thread.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:06 PM ^
It gets blown up as the worst thing because it was. It was a catastrophic, disgraceful loss that brought an immense amount of nationwide shame on the football program. The coaching staff clearly didn't do jack shit to prepare the team and everyone besides Mike Hart thought that they could win just by throwing their jock strap onto the field. Over the years, Carr apologists have tried to whitewash that loss by hilariously claiming that App State probably would have been ranked in I-A. App State lost 2 games in I-AA that year and their defense was garbage. They were a team with 65 scholarship athletes. A I-AA team is what Akron would be on severe probation. They would have gotten run off the field by a ranked team that didn't half-assedly prepare. For that matter, we would have run them off the field in a rematch.
Any goodwill that Carr gets goes out the door with Appalachian State. It was an anti-national championship.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:18 PM ^
Yes, App State lost two games that year. They also won a national championship. We've seen a lot of FCS wins over power-5 teams and the last decade's pretty well established that the best FCS teams are top-half FBS quality.
"App State would have been rated" is a strawman. Their season grades out at #55 in the country at Massey, which seems about right. That puts them 8th out of the 13 teams Michigan played that year.
Michigan hadn't lost to a team ranked that low since the Wisconsin opener in 1981, but they've done it six times since (all coming in '08 and '09).
October 1st, 2014 at 4:02 PM ^
The wins by I-AA teams have rarely come against anyone but the lowest dregs of I-A. They are huge outliers compared to the regular 56-7 type drubbings that even most bad teams are able to deliver.
I'll say it again -- a I-AA team is Akron on severe probation, and that might be generous. And App State didn't dominate I-AA. I might be willing to entertain the notion that the loss wasn't a disgrace if they dominated every game that they were in. They didn't. They lost two games, and they won a few more very unimpressively. In the end, they won the "Akron on probation" championship tournament. That's not saying much though. Michigan with Chad Henne, Jake Long, Mario Manningham, Mike Hart, Adrian Arrington, and a bevy of 4* should have blown them out easily. They would have if their heads had been in the game and if their coaches had properly prepared them.
No team has gotten more ridicule for a loss than Michigan for that one, and we deserved it.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:12 PM ^
North Dakota State's managed five "outliers" in five tries and the K-State team we saw in December wasn't the dregs of the FBS. Eastern Washington also beat a bowl-winner last year, as did Eastern Illinois.
If the "lowest dregs of 1-A" are anyone outside the top-20, OK. But N.D. State hasn't been beating weak Sun Belt and MAC teams; they're beating middling teams from power conferences.
October 1st, 2014 at 4:30 PM ^
NDSU's victories include wins over 2010 Kansas, 2011 Minnesota, and 2012 Colorado State. Those teams were fucking awful.
Kansas State was a middling team in their conference and North Dakota State got them very early on in a big rebuilding year. And unlike Appy State in 2007, NDSU went undefeated in 2013, with all four of their post season games decided by 28+ points. They are the one I-AA team that I might make an exception for my rule that losing to a I-AA team at a top notch program should be a fireable offense.
October 1st, 2014 at 5:00 PM ^
So you would have fired Mike Riley last year? Rocky Long?
The idea that Lloyd Carr should have been fired one game after his bosses talked him out of retirement might be the most bizarre notion ever floated here.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:28 PM ^
Was Toledo? Didn't they finish 2008 at 3 and 9?
October 1st, 2014 at 3:44 PM ^
You and Yeoman don't get it.
Losing to App State as the first ever top 5 team made Michigan a laughingstock. Any fear of the Big House gone, down the drain. Everybody remembers it. Everyone. Every team that comes into Michigan Stadium knows that they can win there because of that game.
It was the first huge sign of the mess the program is in now. Winning 9 games with that team was not an achievement. Beating Florida in a bowl game with a spread attack was nice, but it was still a disappointing year that saw us lose to Ohio for the sixth time in seven years and lose the Big Ten. I'm not going to say anything about Carr because of his grandson other than this: He left at the exact right time to keep part of his coaching legacy intact.
As for the Toledo game: You realize that Michigan team was also a 3 win team? And that pretty much all the players that had made Michigan good/very good the previous two years were gone right?
October 1st, 2014 at 8:44 PM ^
in a Big Ten title game.....and havent had s sniff SINCE...Lloyd Carr was a great coach..maybe we didnt win it every year but we sure in hell were in the race pretty much every year
October 1st, 2014 at 4:21 PM ^
For the zillionth time, he didn't go around secretly urging players to transfer. He just told the ones who went to him in fear that they might be a bad fit -- Mallett, most notably. He told whether he agreed, and told them they should do what's best for them. That's very different. He was just doing what was in the players' best interests.
October 1st, 2014 at 5:32 PM ^
had taken that slant with D-Rob and Gardner?
Gardner, for one, would be a lot better off these days.
October 1st, 2014 at 5:52 PM ^
but maybe not as respects Mallett, who was already a "there's your transfer papers, if you don't want to be here" case before the season even ended. Nine times out of ten that wakes the player up and he realizes he's where he wants to be and had better shape up. Mallett was the other guy.
The evidence we have seems to point to RR being on board with Mallett's eventual departure.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:26 PM ^
- 1-6 versus Tressel
- Didn't recruit worth a darn his last couple of years.
- Oversaw the talent and competition gap between us and State close.
I'm not mentioning all the rumored and written about stuff that happened during the RichRod years, including the lack of reigning in his former players when they were helping to fracture the football community. I believe it was RVB that mentioned that those guys weren't even around during the RR years.
When you have 500 bowl games and the MAC on your schedule every year, getting 8 wins and to a bowl game with our talent is not asking too much.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:33 PM ^
October 1st, 2014 at 2:39 PM ^
I don't know much about the conspiracy theories about what Carr did or didn't do after he left, so I won't touch those, but a lot of what people accuse Carr of now seems either inaccurate or cherry-picked. I've written this before and am pasting it here.
Results (13 seasons):
- 122-40 overall (81-23 in the Big Ten)
- 1 national title
- 5 Big Ten titles
- 19-8 vs. top 10 opponents
- 6-7 vs. OSU
- 10-3 vs. MSU
- 5-4 vs. ND
- no serious NCAA violations
Recruiting - average Rivals star rating*:
- 2002 - 10
- 2003 - 1
- 2004 - 3 (tied)
- 2005 - 10
- 2006 - 5 (tied)
- 2007 - 10
*I'm using the average player rating from Rivals, whose rankings apparently only go back to 2002. I grabbed average player rank rather than the Rivals class rank, because the Rivals class rank rewards bigger classes for being bigger, which effectively punishes coaches for keeping players in their program.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:40 PM ^
If our next coach came within sniffing distance of this record of accomplishment, we would be very, very happy. Just saying.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:53 PM ^
There'd be a "Fire Coach X" website the day after his first loss. We'd be bitching about spread punting. We'd be grousing about whoever the AD was when he was hired failing to hire Bobby Wilder or Sean Kugler or whichever midmajor guy nobody cares about now gets lucky or hot and becomes a big name in two years.
This fanbase doesn't do happy.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:19 PM ^
This fanbase doesn't do happy.
I think it might be more accurate to say some members of the fanbase don't do happy. Some people are just generally not happy. Research shows that even if they win the lottery, they won't be happy.
October 1st, 2014 at 8:25 PM ^
I'm living in the diaspora and the only segment of the fanbase I'm in contact with these days is on this blog.
October 2nd, 2014 at 7:47 PM ^
I can see exactly what you're talking about.
Be careful, because there is a phenomenon called emotional contagion, where being around a group of people in a particular mood can cause you to feel the same way.
It's partly how persons can be smart, but people can be dumb.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:01 PM ^
Here's how we've done:
- 43-38 (21-28 in the Big 10)
- 0 national titles
- 0 Big 10 titles
- 1-8 against top 10 teams
- 1-5 against OSU
- 1-5 against MSU
- 4-3 against ND
- one relatively minor set of NCAA infractions
October 1st, 2014 at 3:05 PM ^
The ND record is pretty hilarious in that context (though this year's game was less so).
October 1st, 2014 at 3:35 PM ^
How dare you go citing his record? It has been proven repeatedly throughout this thread that Lloyd Carr is the reason that the last seven years have been a disaster. And all that good stuff he did....it didn't count. Gary Moeller is the reason for 1997! What a bunch of bullshit.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:38 PM ^
How did Carr do against the OSU coach who wasn't caught cheating?
Define recruiting that isn't worth a darn. How many of Carr's players were on the Sugar Bowl team? Yeah, Mallet was a really bad player.
Oversaw the talent gap between us and State close? How many times did Carr beat State? Somehow you equate a continued beatdown of Sparty with a close in talent gap.
How many national championships did Carr acquire for the University of Michigan? How many Big Ten Championships? How many Heisman winners?
You, my friend, are a clown.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:53 PM ^
against Cooper?
Cooper was there for a couple of Moeller years, but I know he was 2 and 10 against Michigan.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:31 PM ^
I've said it on this site before and I'll say it again - I definitely have a new perspective on the last half of the Carr era, and I do think he had some pretty shitty things just not go his way (i.e. Henson bailing, Gutierrez injury, which resulted in Navarre and Henne playing before they were fully ready). At the same time, yes, he ran a consistent, year-to-year solid program, but...fairly or not, it's upon the big games that you're judged. He struggled to win them over the second half of his tenure, and it got people on his ass. Another thing I've said on here before is that if he goes even just 3-4 instead of 1-6 against Tressel, things are different, both in 2008 and probably even today. It's the bowl games, too. Yes I know that in Rose Bowls after the 2003, 2004, and 2006 seasons, he played against teams that could have played for the National Championship (and in the case of 2003 and 2004, did play for the NC the following year). But if you want to be counted among the best, you've gotta win those once in a while.
Again, I'm not saying it's 100% fair, but it is what it is.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:43 PM ^
He struggled to win against a known cheater at OSU. He struggled against a known cheater at USC. You're right, it is what it is. Carr doesn't get the respect he deserves because he couldn't beat a cheater.
If you want to be counted among the best at Michigan, I'd say a National Championship, multiple Big Ten Championships, a Heisman Tropny winner, and no NCAA mess ups should count as among the best. I'm not saying it's 100% fair to say a coach is one of the best at Michigan because he did all of those things, but it is what it is. Again, I'm not saying its 100% fair, but it is what it is.
October 1st, 2014 at 2:53 PM ^
How did that cheating at those programs keep him from beating them exactly?
October 1st, 2014 at 4:28 PM ^
Teams cheat because it helps them win (illegitimately). That's the point. If it didn't help them win, they wouldn't cheat and risk the consequences. I have no idea whether Lloyd would have won any additional games if some of our opponents were as rule-abiding as we seemed to be (though I'm sure no one is perfectly clean).
Would Troy Smith have gone to OSU if those benefits weren't available, and would a Troy Smith-less OSU still have beaten Michigan in 2006? Who knows? But the point is that cheating - even if the rules are stupid - generally makes it easier for the teams that cheat to beat the teams that do not. That's why they do it.
October 1st, 2014 at 3:02 PM ^
Oh, come on. Reggie Bush was a freshman in 2003. And what do a bunch of guys who got tattoos playing for Tressel in 2010 have to do with the wins he rang up from 2001-2007? Tressel's teams, and Carroll's, beat Lloyd's on the field.