OT: HBO's Student Athlete
If you've got HBO (or have "cut the cord" and simply using your parents' log-in), the LeBron James-produced Student Athlete documentary is on right now. It's obviously got a point of view (the NCAA makes billions, the athletes get very little), but I think tracking different athletes (HS seniors, current, and former players) across the spectrum will be immensely interesting.
October 2nd, 2018 at 10:23 PM ^
Oh, you just said that the athletes get very little. Let the outrage begin!
October 2nd, 2018 at 10:34 PM ^
I also took shot at cord cutters, so my hope is to annoy about 76% of the people who visit this board during the week.
October 3rd, 2018 at 12:04 AM ^
You said LeBron James. That’s enough to annoy me.
October 3rd, 2018 at 8:28 AM ^
I do use my parents login. You know me so well.
October 2nd, 2018 at 10:33 PM ^
Not this again
October 2nd, 2018 at 10:39 PM ^
It's actually the premiere, but I get the point.
Of course, I'll never not stop finding it interesting watching the NCAA piss all over college athletes and then get mad at them for trying to make it stop.
October 2nd, 2018 at 10:40 PM ^
Have lebron pay them.
October 3rd, 2018 at 12:54 PM ^
Uh... That's a violation.
October 2nd, 2018 at 10:44 PM ^
Me James should try being the solution. Start his own league. I doubt he, or anyone else would be able to match the lifelong value of a full 4 year scholarship.
October 2nd, 2018 at 10:54 PM ^
That’s just it. These kids are getting an opportunity to attend and graduate from some of the top academic institutions in the world. You’re crazy if you don’t think these kids aren’t getting paid. Have you been to an academic center on campus? What about dining with the team? How about the facilities only offered to athletes? Healthcare? These kids live like celebrities.
October 3rd, 2018 at 2:33 AM ^
It's an intractable problem. There is one model for these different types of athletes:
--The soccer player on a 25% scholarship, who loves their sport and is getting a great education
--The women's rower on a 0% scholarship, who has been wheedled into staying on the team (because the school needs to balance out the football team's numbers for Title IX)
--The basketball player on a 100% scholarship, who doesn't really care about the education, but is being expertly groomed for a great career in the NBA
--The football player on a 100% scholarship, whose body is getting destroyed and he's starting to realize the NFL isn't going to happen, and he has spent his school years getting ready for football so he's not really in a position to take advantage of a University education.
It's required that Universities be fair to all athletes. So what can you do? If you allow likeness profit, you're allowing all sorts of undesirable outside forces take control of your program.
If you pay a salary to football and basketball players, you have to pay everyone. That's not happening.
I see how University athletic departments benefit from this model. I see how some student-athletes benefit. But there are definitely some student-athletes getting screwed. Probably the only real long-term answer is that Universities are going to have to get out of the athletics game entirely.
October 3rd, 2018 at 9:08 AM ^
The Universities don't have to give up athletics entirely. They can just remove the scholarship component and make it voluntary participation like the Ivies and D3.
But for this to work we need a viable alternative to FBS college football for high level prospects. The NFL isnt going to invest millions into what would probably end up just breaking even for them. And the NCAA can't change their mind and become a pro league without some severe ramifications. Tough spot.
When you add it all up the football players are probably getting around 100k a year in value for their tuition, room and board, big ten stipends, training table, academic support staff, orthodontia, healthcare, etc. Are some scholarship players worth more than 100k a year to the athletic department? Of course, but not all of them.
It is hard to quantify the value of the coaching too. Kids who pursue careers in football be it coaching or playing are certainly going to have a leg up on guys from lesser known schools.
Interesting thought provoking discussion, thank you.
October 3rd, 2018 at 9:41 AM ^
Probably the only real long-term answer is that Universities are going to have to get out of the athletics game entirely.
And mothball their multi-million dollar athletic campuses and stadiums? That's not going to happen. Colleges have way too much skin in the athletics game to simply phase it out.
October 3rd, 2018 at 9:37 PM ^
The problem is the type of “degrees” they are receiving are not very marketable. The actual address this in the documentary. How can a student, practice everyday, study, play the games, go to class and work to make money. Your comment is ridiculous. I can tell you never knew a collegiate athlete.
October 2nd, 2018 at 10:46 PM ^
Wouldn't watch if I had HBO. Propaganda. As a father paying for 2 children in college - it ain't free. $50k-$100k for 4 years depending where you go. Cry me a river about a scholarship player who get free coaching, free tuition, free medical, free food, free dietician, free weight room, free tutors, etc, etc, etc
October 2nd, 2018 at 10:50 PM ^
I'm not going to get into the same debates because lord knows I don't expect to change anyone's mind and nobody will provide even a modicum of solid argument to change mine, but college sports isn't "free" for athletes. They have to play the sport, train all the time, stay eligible while being restricted in what they can do outside of the classroom, etc. It's almost like a job, but one where your boss has virtually unlimited control, you are chastised constantly by strangers for your actions, and you can be effectively fired if you are injured doing said job.
October 2nd, 2018 at 10:55 PM ^
Nobody is forcing these kids to play football. If they don’t want the responsibility then don’t play.
October 2nd, 2018 at 11:16 PM ^
And nobody is going to be hurt if the NCAA cuts them a check for merchandise and tv deals. Unless you are strongly on the side that Urban Meyer, Art Briles, and Rick Pitino, to name just three of the upstanding members of the coaching fraternity, deserve more money.
October 3rd, 2018 at 5:14 AM ^
I hate the NCAA but I don't believe just cutting certain athletes a check will solve anything. There is no way they can pay them all, and unless they can figure that out, it would open a can of worms.
October 3rd, 2018 at 9:36 AM ^
They could make money of their likeness, which would require absolutely no check cutting. That's the first step. They could create trusts for all athletes, include some additional money as part of a scholarship, etc. There are myriad of ways that are economically viable for people, but they get ignored for reasons that typically mean a hell of a lot to the people who have the money already.
October 3rd, 2018 at 9:52 AM ^
I think saying "nobody is going to be hurt" is a little misleading. There are people whose lives would change if that happened, and there are Title IX issues present at all times.
October 3rd, 2018 at 2:27 AM ^
And nobody "forces" people to work minimum wage jobs. That doesn't mean the minimum wage shouldn't be hire.
Or for a more extreme example, no one "forces" people to work in sweatshops. If they don't like it, why don't they just go somewhere else?
October 3rd, 2018 at 8:31 AM ^
I think the people who work in sweatshops literally have no other options.
October 3rd, 2018 at 9:53 AM ^
Was "hire" used here ironically or not?
October 2nd, 2018 at 10:59 PM ^
Not free to make money off of their own likeness in their free time.... I don’t think they need to be paid but it is crazy that the NCAA can tell them how they can and can’t make money when they aren’t competing.
October 2nd, 2018 at 11:03 PM ^
**How they can’t make money when they aren’t competing**
October 2nd, 2018 at 11:18 PM ^
I'd also like to add that Zach Gentry getting a couple extra bucks froma BTN contract isn't going to change your bottom line in terms of tuition one iota. So being mad about the high cost of college (which is another valid, real dsicussion we need to have in this country) doesn't feel all that relevant to the discussion of athletes not being able to make money off their likeness, for example.
October 2nd, 2018 at 11:27 PM ^
Agreed. Have witnessed how student athletes already receive many advantages over the average student. At most would be ok if student athletes get paid the campus student-employee hourly rate whenever they are on-the-clock at practices or game. Otherwise, Lebron and/or other well-off pro athletes can feel free to work the system to find a way to donate money to the student athletes themselves.
October 3rd, 2018 at 9:44 PM ^
How much money have your children generated for the schools they attend?
October 12th, 2018 at 2:46 PM ^
Tuition is more or less a subjective value and isn't physical money, not to mention the fact that tuition is higher with better athletics. And a lot of these athletes in sports that are profitable (football and bball) are from homes that are impoverished. Yes, the free tuition is helpful, but that doesn't pay the bills at home.
I was an NCAA athlete in a non-profitable sport that was on scholarship, but my father is a pretty respected prof at Michigan and we never had money issues. The system was great for me. But I am sure a lot of the guys on the mega profitable football team and basketball team have money issues at home, or come from homes with a single mother who has money issues. Not trying to be presumptuous or prejudice at all - it's just how it is. Add to that that 80% of the guys on the team that actually play are getting general studies degrees, so it's not like the education for them is all that incredible.
Title IX is tricky to get around, so you'd have to pay every player the same amount of money, but I bet those football players and basketball players would gladly do that over nothing.
There's no doubt the whole situation is tricky, but I just think it's a bit ridiculous that there are stores full of Michigan football merchandise, message boards with people devoting much of their life to the football team, people betting on college football and making a ton of money, people on twitter constantly talking about Michigan football, etc and the kids just get the things you mentioned above. Everything you just listed is afforded to kids on full rides on the swim team.
October 2nd, 2018 at 11:41 PM ^
I don't think student athletes should get paychecks; but they should be able to market their gear, likeness, image, etc. and make money off of it.
October 3rd, 2018 at 7:16 AM ^
Exactly, this should be the solution. If someone outside of the university, like a bagman, wants to pay a player they should be able to. This is already happening under the table and nobody cares. Just put it out in the open so places that want to be competitive but within the rules can do so.
The non-revenue sports should be equally as free to receive such payments, if there exists someone willing to pay them. No need to mess around with Title IX; just give everyone the same opportunity to be paid and the market will take care of the details.
October 3rd, 2018 at 12:04 AM ^
The value of the athletic training that these students get is always left out of the equation when we talk about paying student athletes. Most are not pro-ready when coming out of high school, and need their coaches to help them get to the next level. IMO, the NFL/NBA should allow the few super talented individuals to go pro right away; the rest can enter college and get the free training that is offered by being a student athlete. I think they should have to stay a certain length of time (more than one year) if they do enter college.
October 3rd, 2018 at 12:19 AM ^
makes sense for the nba, but no one will ever be ready for the nfl directly out of high school.
October 3rd, 2018 at 12:21 AM ^
So then the free training they get becomes even more important.
October 3rd, 2018 at 9:42 AM ^
I don't know how much athletic training has to do with it as much as physical maturation. I didn't engage in much weight lifting or training while in college, but I got noticeably stronger when I went to the gym semi-consistently because I went from 17 to 21. So if there was an alternative junior league, that would be sufficient. But the NFL (and to a lesser extent the NBA) wants these guys to have big names so that you'll pay money for draft insights, training camps, etc. Baker Mayfield mattered to millions because of what he did in college; if he was toiling away at the equivalent of AAA football somewhere I doubt anyone would notice. Oh, and the NCAA gets to reap billions of dollars off them as well.
So again, all of these arguments seem centered around this idea that there aren't a handful of players in sports deciding how to maximize their pocket books while minimizing their exposure and liability to the athletes that make them the money.
October 3rd, 2018 at 4:54 AM ^
Stop televising college athletics.
October 3rd, 2018 at 8:32 AM ^
Boo this man! Boooooooo
October 3rd, 2018 at 9:54 AM ^
Shoot, we're on the way to televising (or streaming) high school athletics.
October 3rd, 2018 at 8:43 AM ^
I'll believe that schools are hurt for cash to pay players when they cut the number of commercials in a game in half.
October 3rd, 2018 at 8:54 AM ^
So the guy who famously didn't go to college is lecturing on the evils of the system he has no firsthand knowledge of. Got it.
October 3rd, 2018 at 9:45 AM ^
So by this analogy, you shouldn't be able to complain about college coaching because you never coached at the D1 level (unless you did)? Or complain about politics because you are not a senator (unless you are)? I didn't know people couldn't comment on things unless they experienced it directly, because how could someone possibly be able to form coherent thoughts in their heads by simply observing the world around them.
Also, you mean the guy who was able to jump directly to the pros before the NCAA and NBA forced other NBA-ready players to go to college so that the NCAA can get a billion dollars from the licensing rights to their games is pointing out that it's a messed up system.
October 3rd, 2018 at 1:26 PM ^
I agree with everything you said here. This is 100% accurate.
October 3rd, 2018 at 10:58 AM ^
This argument usually revolves around two different observations, and neither side really engages with the other, as far as I can tell.
- One argument has to do with the cash and in-kind value of a college football scholarship. Obviously, if you add up out of state tuition (for some students), room, board, training, travel, swag, etc., that number gets to be pretty high.
- The other argument has to do with who has reaped the surpluses of increasing revenues flowing to college football.
- In 1969, Bo's salary was about $135,000, which is less than a million in today's dollars. Harbaugh makes $9 million.
- The overall UM athletic department revenues in 2008 were about $92 million and in 2018 they are projected to be $188 million, an increase of 74% in real terms, just in the past decade.
- Then there is the revenue paid to a zillion other people including Men in Gold Blazers who make money organizing bowl games and such.
So one reasonable starting point would be to say: is there a way that some portion of that surplus can be redistributed to the players, that is, above and beyond the increases in the real value of their scholarships? I don't pretend to know the answer to this but it seems like a reasonable question.
October 3rd, 2018 at 4:22 PM ^
You pay football players, your gonna have to pay every athlete from all the non revenue sports.
Most schools would go broke and stop offering athletics at that point.