OT: Arizona destroys Oregon, 42-16.
Happy for Rich Rod and Arizona. Kadeem Carey was a man today, and Oregon failed, as several players during the week were dismissing the possibility of the Rose Bowl because they are focused on the national title. Good for Arizona and happy to see Oregon brought down.
Edit: not trying to start any flaming, this is news and I'm happy to see big upsets, and Oregon deserved to be brought down IMO.
November 23rd, 2013 at 6:46 PM ^
Cool beans.
Trying to start a thread that wont divolve into a flame war or something?
November 23rd, 2013 at 6:51 PM ^
November 23rd, 2013 at 6:56 PM ^
Why, because I was one of the biggest Rich Rod supporters on the board, and after he was fired I realized there was no point in moping around about it, and so I decided to be just as all in for the next coach as I was for Rich Rod, to try and do my very small part in making sure the same bullshit didn't happen to him?
Sorry I'm not a massive, flaming hypocrite like you.
November 23rd, 2013 at 6:59 PM ^
Same bullshit? Rich Rod actually improved during his time here, Hoke has regressed massively. Lest the board forget, Michigan could EASILY have three more losses on this season, NW, Akron and UConn.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:01 PM ^
Rich Rod improved, but the fact of the matter is, it's not exactly difficult to improve when you start out so far in the shitter.
Lest we forget just how awful 3-9 was.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:04 PM ^
With the team he inherited, what else was he going to do? Threet couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and Sheridan was smart but didn't have the athletic ability required to be a QB at this level.
Bo/Lloyd/Gary would havemaybe ended up 5-7 or 6-6 with that team.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:06 PM ^
I am aware of all of the pro-RR arguments. I helped to write them.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:15 PM ^
The moral of the story is don't hire a coach who only coaches one side of the ball, and if you do, make damn sure the coordinator on the other side of the ball has a proven track record longer than one or two years hitching a ride on the shoulders of NFL caliber QBs or defensive ends. Hoke and RichRod are two sides of the same coin.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:21 PM ^
Michigan helped screw RR by not giving him the requisite amount of cash to bring in Casteel right off the bat.
Not that he helped himself via his subsequent coaching hires, but he clearly would have benefitted from having the resources to bring in a competent DC.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:52 PM ^
Actually, the moral of the story is that if you have more than enough money to give to a coach to hire the DC he wants, then fucking give it to him.
November 23rd, 2013 at 10:49 PM ^
Or RR could have taken less money like Hoke did to get the DC he wanted.
November 23rd, 2013 at 11:07 PM ^
IIRC, Rich Rod's contract was 6 years $15 million.
Source: http://www.freep.com/article/20110104/SPORTS06/110104047/
When Lloyd Carr retired in 2007, Rodriguez agreed to a six-year, $15-million contract. It stipulates that he will be paid a $2.5 million buyout if fired. U-M conceivably could have fired him for the NCAA violations without the buyout, a provision allowed in his contract, but Brandon has previously said the NCAA troubles did not warrant dismissal.
Hoke's contract is 6 years $18 million. Source: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20110330/FREE/110339985/brady-hoke…
New University of Michigan football coach Brady Hoke on Monday signed a six-year contract potentially worth $18 million or more, the university said today.
November 24th, 2013 at 1:55 AM ^
Bring back voting. Facts and links deserve an upvote.
November 24th, 2013 at 4:59 AM ^
Still an idiot, I see.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:12 PM ^
With the team he inherited, what else was he going to do?
He originally inherited Ryan Mallett, let's not forget, and also Justin Boren. You can call those guys traitors or whatever, but they were talented guys that RichRod couldn't convince to stay. Also, Adrian Arrington went pro despite not really being a highly-regarded prospect. Part of the recruiting job a new coach has to do is to convince the current players to stay, and he struggled there. Compare that to Beilein, who convinced Manny and DeShawn to stay, probably in part because he kept around Mike Jackson from the previous staff (whereas RichRod pretty much fired everybody).
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:14 PM ^
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:17 PM ^
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:27 PM ^
I am going to make it my mission to get the two authors together to agree that YOU are wrong in the way that you characterize the Bacon book and the HTTV article.
I realize this must be a terribly shitty day for you. It's my lonely task to make it worse.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:30 PM ^
Oh snap.
Y'all done did it now.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:56 PM ^
November 23rd, 2013 at 8:04 PM ^
The guy still does FOIA requests on the Freep's FOIA requests to try to catch them with egg on their face.
FOIA requests on FOIA requests. Think about that. It must be fun living in the past.
November 23rd, 2013 at 10:03 PM ^
It had some considerable value; showing that the Freep -- and particularly Michael Rosenberg -- never tried to to get any documents (and thereby telegraphing his ongoing vendetta) until after the story showed up on their front page. And it was at that point, after the fact, that the Freep's real investigative reporter, Jim Schaefer, decided to, uh, ask for documents. Before that time, the only thing that Rosenberg/Snyder had done was to ask if the football program had ever copped to any "Major" violations. So that they could later suggest that what they were uncovering was a major violation (they did their darndest to make it so, unlike Maryland a year later which self-reported secondary violations), and that Michigan hade never before been found guilty of any major violations in football.
You, Bando, must be the last guy in the Michigan blogosphere who still has any sympathy for the Free Press.
Rest assured that if I could figure out anything in the future -- including a FOIA request -- that would hurt the Free Press, Snyder and/or Rosenberg, I would do it. But I just did it once, and it was in the critical period of the NCAA investigation. When almost no one in Detroit media was calling out the Freep for its malevolence.
November 23rd, 2013 at 8:26 PM ^
This is a fun thread.
November 23rd, 2013 at 8:15 PM ^
At best you have a stalemate: one man's word against another. At worst you have Craig Ross' interpretation of what happened based on his personal knowledge of Lloyd Carr (speculation) against John Bacon's book of what happened based on testimony received by several party members involved (although some of it is undoubtedly hearsay).
Even if you assume Craig Ross' interpretation is as likely to have occurred as John Bacon's book, it still means that Snarling Wolverine's interpretation of what happened is also "full of crap." So... this thread just has plenty of assholes:
(start at 0:43)
November 23rd, 2013 at 8:34 PM ^
You are actually the one that is full of shit. Third and Long may not be gospel, but it is very far from a gossip mag.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:38 PM ^
I read the book. Where does it specify that RichRod is blameless for the departures of all the starters? The only one it goes into detail about is Boren, and that explanation is a little dubious given that the "lazy" Boren went on to start for some excellent Ohio teams.
It suggests that Carr was less than fully-supportive of RichRod, yes, but I suspect that had a lot to do with (as the book notes) RichRod making Carr's assistants wait for hours to re-interview and then turning them all down anyway. Carr had been the one to reach out to Rich in the first place, and then Rich turned around and did that to his guys. I could understand if he felt betrayed.
Again, note the difference: Beilein recognized the value of continuity and kept some Amaker assistants, even though TA had been fired and he really didn't have to. Carr left behind a program that was very stable, and still RichRod decided to let everyone go anyway. Small wonder that a lot of the players he inherited weren't excited to play for him.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:42 PM ^
How many of RR's assistants are still here at UM? Doesn't Hoke value consistency?
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:44 PM ^
Whoosh goes the point.
See;Carr leaving via retiring and stable program bit.
See; Rich Rod getting fired.
See; Difference between those two things.
November 23rd, 2013 at 8:01 PM ^
see: snarling wolverine's reply below
stable? firing the DC 2 years before retiring?
The whole notion that RR should have or must have kept assistants around is a bit too much IMO, which is why I posted what I did. Coaches come in and replace entire staffs all the time. It is a risk you take whenever you hire someone from outside your coaching pipeline.
November 23rd, 2013 at 8:04 PM ^
I see his reply, and his suggestion that we keep coach Frey is ridiculous condiering Hoke and Borges do not run the same offense or blocking schemes as Rich Rod.
If you can name one person from Rich Rod's staff you would have wanted to keep, who would it have been? No one on the offensive staff, other than Jackson was going to stay. They're not MANBALL guys, and did we really want to keep anyone from his defensive staff?
So, who ya got?
November 23rd, 2013 at 9:17 PM ^
Are you sure that Frey couldn't coach any other blocking scheme? He was at South Florida for a long time before coming to WVU in 2007, and then to Michigan. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't remember USF as a zone team.
November 23rd, 2013 at 9:24 PM ^
I could be completely wrong on that front and if so, I retract my statement, but I believe South Florida ran a spread similar to Rich Rod under Jim Leavitt. I couldn't tell you if they ran a zone blocking scheme. I remember the Matt Grothe led squads, but that was a little later, still under Leavitt though.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:49 PM ^
Now that you mention it, I think you could argue that Hoke should have kept a couple of RichRod's offensive assistants (especially Frey on the OL), actually.
But the bigger point is that if you inherit a stable, successful program (as we were in 2007), you shouldn't need to change everything. That can backfire, as we saw.
November 23rd, 2013 at 8:29 PM ^
What big time coach EVER keeps a substantial portion of an old regime?
Coaches develop relationships and trust with their own staffs that make transitions SMOOTHER, not rougher.
The fact that a coach the tenure the length of Lloyd's was stepping down practically demands wholesale change. Particularly if it was rotting from the inside out.
Would RR have been just fine with DeBord & English? That's insane.
I don't fault Hoke or RR for any transition changes, you have to establish your authority & identity.
In hindsight, Frey should have stayed, (& Jackson should have retired, etc.)
But only interum coaches keep the much of an old guard around for any length of time.
November 24th, 2013 at 3:55 AM ^
A new HC has every right assembling his new staff! Why would you ever keep leftovers? If Harbaugh came in as the new coach instead of RR, he would have replaced all of LC coaches. I'm sure LC would have hard feelings but Harbaugh would want to shake things up.
November 23rd, 2013 at 8:30 PM ^
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:47 PM ^
Facts don't matter in the immediate aftermath.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:53 PM ^
Yeah, let's take the side of the class acts that are Ryan Mallett and Justin Boren now.
November 23rd, 2013 at 9:12 PM ^
I'm not "taking their side" so much as noting that it was certainly in RichRod's best interests to come to common ground with them. We saw what happened without them. And we saw them go on to star at Arkansas and Ohio.
November 23rd, 2013 at 8:01 PM ^
Do you have any idea what Mallett was like when he was here? He was one foot out the door BEFORE the coaching change. His own WRs couldn't stand him and Carr threw transfer papers at him more than once.
November 23rd, 2013 at 9:07 PM ^
Carr did the "Go ahead and transfer" thing with a lot of guys, including Chris Perry. Most got it together and stayed.
November 23rd, 2013 at 9:17 PM ^
It's funny, the whole "the other players hated Ryan Mallett" thing gets so much traction... Yet three months after he transferred, he was back in Ann Arbor, where he showed up at Dance Marathon in the middle of the night with Henne, Hart, and a pile of other players, looking like they liked each other just fine.
Don't get me wrong, Ryan had a reputation for being a pretty tremendous dbag from the second he arrived on campus (and I definitely saw it in action a few times here and there), but at the end of the day, that could be said for a lot of star athletes.
November 24th, 2013 at 1:14 AM ^
was a dick--and everyone knew it at the time. You need better examples.
November 24th, 2013 at 12:06 PM ^
I dislike rich rod and did since his days at wvu so maybe dismiss what I say, but to pretend like their isn't a huge difference between 3-9 and 6-6 is laughable, thats pretty much the exact value of a coach is whether they would take similar teams to different records. Also can't the same argument be said about hoke, how the hell is he supposed to win games without an offensive line? which is in fact entirely rich rods fault.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:01 PM ^
They could also easily have 3 more wins. I fail to see your point.
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:44 PM ^
Against PSU (wins over ILL and PUR), NEB (@home and a team that almost lost to a Wyoming team, which gave up 80 today), and Iowa (with a +3!!! TO margin).
November 24th, 2013 at 12:07 PM ^
Would you really be upset if our team was 10-1 even with that being the schedule?
November 23rd, 2013 at 7:03 PM ^
In fairness, we should add that Iowa, Nebraska and Penn State could also very well have wound up in the W column.
But also, Indiana was so much closer than the score of that game indicated and should be included along with UConn. Akron and NW were both one play away from being a loss.