denardogasm

November 3rd, 2013 at 8:19 PM ^

The 60 minutes that is run by CBS?  The CBS that has tv rights for the SEC?  I'm watching now but I'm turning it off for that.  Can't handle them slobbering all over him like he's a molder of men without mentioning all the cheating revelations that have gone uninvestigated.

bigego150

November 3rd, 2013 at 8:32 PM ^

I will not watch the 60 minutes piece to be quite honest....having said that.....Saban....Meyer and a coupla others are tops in the profession.......all are aggressive.....all play to win (rather than not to lose)...two of the great traits for a good HC to have....that would be very refreshing to see

Oscar

November 3rd, 2013 at 9:40 PM ^

Helluva coach?  Or helluva recruiter?  Where was his success in the NFL?  Where was his success at MSU?  I'm not saying he is Barry Switzer level, but until you prove yourself on a level playing field (Barry Switzer does not count since he inherited an extremely talented Cowboy team), I'm not totally convinced.  If anything, Saban will always be less of a coach until he "fixes" his NFL resume.

In fact, he kind of remines of Coach Calipari.  Horrible professional results, brings in top notch talent, most of the top talent lives up to expectations in college, but mostly fail to grow once they are drafted.

Trader Jack

November 3rd, 2013 at 10:32 PM ^

How about a rough estimate? I'm really curious what it takes to crack the Greatest Coaches of All Time According to Oscar List.



What about those coaches who were really successful but only coached in college? They probably just weren't good enough to make it in the NFL, right?

Oscar

November 3rd, 2013 at 10:49 PM ^

What about those coaches who were really successful but only coached in college? They probably just weren't good enough to make it in the NFL, right?

Now that is a reasonable question.  If a coach chooses to stay in college then try coaching the the NFL, I certainly can't fault them for that, and I certainly could not say whether or not they could make it in the NFL.

As for your other question, I'll start the discussion with a few examples.  Bill Parcells is a great coach.  Bill Belichick is a great coach.  Jimmy Johnson was a great GM/recruiter, but a good coach.  That's all I care to invest into this question at the moment.  Feel free to pick apart my examples so that you can manipulate it into some sort of side argument.

lilpenny1316

November 4th, 2013 at 9:43 AM ^

Without needing some help from the officials.  His team in 1999 was very very good.  So he bought low, sold high with Sparty.  Those LSU and Alabama teams were average at best when he got there.

And all he did with Miami was take a team that was 4-12 to 9-7 the next season.  And they might have made the playoffs the next year if his QBs weren't a broken down Culpepper, Joey Harrington and Cleo Lemon.  Those teams can in no way compare to the teams Pacells, Johnson and Bellichek had.  All three of those guys won when they had great QB play.  Phil Simms, Troy Aikman and Tom Brady helped those men look pretty good.

Saban's a great coach.  He was a terrific d-coordinator before becoming a head coach.  Argue his winning percentage over two years if you want, but I would take him coaching the Lions or Michigan any day.  

Oscar

November 4th, 2013 at 12:59 PM ^

"All three of those guys won when they had great QB play.  Phil Simms, Troy Aikman and Tom Brady helped those men look pretty good."

What does Troy Aikman have to do with my list of great coaches?  What about Jeff Hostetler, was that great QB play also?  And what difference does it make if he had great QB play from those players?  Does that mean that NFL coaches get no credit for QB development?  If anything, you are supporting my argument.

"And all he did with Miami was take a team that was 4-12 to 9-7 the next season.  And they might have made the playoffs the next year"

Plenty of coaches have done that, does that make them great too?

"QBs weren't a broken down Culpepper, Joey Harrington and Cleo Lemon."

Sounds like excuses to me...

"Nick Saban beat UM twice"

Dantonio has beat UM more, does that make him a great coach?

Look, we can pick apart each other's arguements all day long, but the bottom line is Saban was not very successful unless he had much better talent than the other team.  If he can have this kind of success on a more level playing field, I'll change my opinion.

Oscar

November 5th, 2013 at 1:50 PM ^

Well his team went 8-4 the first year there, so I hope it wasn't loaded or else that would hurt your argument more than mine.  So what did you want me to explain?  OK my turn, explain his stint at Miami?  I'd love to hear you talk about how he turned things around when he got there.

cbuswolverine

November 9th, 2013 at 9:58 PM ^

LSU was 3-8 the year before Saban's arrival.  Miami was 4-12 the year before his arrival there.  

What is it you are asking me to explain, exactly?  If you are asking me to explain how the great coach, Nick Saban, turned around the LSU Tigers and Miami Dolphins football teams, his record speaks for itself.

Oscar

November 4th, 2013 at 2:45 PM ^

"Expecting reasonable questions to an unreasonable premise is pretty amusing."

Uhh, who introduced the premise?  Not me.  So just because I don't want to invest the time into answering an unreasonable question, that makes things amusing?  Ok, amuse me, what is your exact list of great coaches, provide their win/loss record, their greatest win, top ten player's that they coached, and a short bio.

Oscar

November 5th, 2013 at 1:12 PM ^

Well now that I know what you are defining as the unreasonable premise I can address it in the following manner.  I don't believe it was an unreasonable premise, I believe it is a valid argument.  You are obviously free to argue.  I probably am at fault here for thinking that I could have an educated discussion, but apparently the only opinions that are reasonable are the ones that you and a few others have.  Furthermore, if you believe it is an unreasonable premise, why are you spending so much time arguing with me about it?  Are you bored?  Need a friend?

saveferris

November 5th, 2013 at 10:54 AM ^

Suggesting that Saban is not a "helluva coach" when he's lead two separate college programs to 4 total National Championships (and poised to win a 5th) is an unreasonable premise.  Trying to trivialize his accomplishments by labeling him as just a "great recruiter" and then citing a two year pro career and a meh record at MSU (meh only in comparison to his current accomplishments) is being disingenuous. 

If anything, I'd say his time at MSU reinforces his reputation in that he made MSU very competitive at a time when the Big 10 as a conference was very strong top to bottom.  I'd argue that his 1999 team was the best MSU squad to take the field in East Lansing aince the mid-60's.

Oscar

November 5th, 2013 at 1:36 PM ^

Well if the criteria to be a helluva coach is the amount of national championships, then yes, Saban is a helleva coach.  But that is not my definition.  If you asked me if Saban a successful coach, then I would answer yes, but only at the college level.  I think you need to be educated on the difference between subjective and objective.  I'll give you a hint, when describing greatness, it is more of an subjective argument.

I'd argue that his 1999 team was the best MSU squad to take the field in East Lansing aince the mid-60's.

Ok, so why did he leave?  Was it only for the money?  If not, then why didn't he think he could make a winner out of MSU?  I thought he was a helluva coach?

"Trying to trivialize his accomplishments by labeling him as just a "great recruiter" "

I never said he was just a great recruiter, I did say that he was not a great coach.  Not the same thing, try to keep up next time.

tenerson

November 3rd, 2013 at 9:58 PM ^

Turns out a large part of being a college coach is recruiting. Also, your point about the guys who play for him not being successful in college is actually in his favor isn't it? I mean, if they aren't successful NFL guys, he must have been doing something with them even the NFL guys can't. 

Oscar

November 3rd, 2013 at 11:11 PM ^

"Going 6-10 with Cleo Lemon as your QB in year two isn't exactly disappointing either if you ask me."

I agree, but Harbaugh was pretty successful with a QB that no one wanted, and Pete Carroll did pretty well with a rookie QB.  But if Cleo Lemon is your QB, and you are a great coach, then coach him up.

cbuswolverine

November 4th, 2013 at 1:43 AM ^

"Miami was unsure if Brees' shoulder was completely healed and doctors suggested the team not sign him because of the injury. The Dolphins ended negotiations and traded for Minnesota Vikings QB Daunte Culpepper instead."

Hmmm...why does that say, "Miami" and "doctors" instead of "Nick Saban" and "Nick Saban, MD?"

Oscar

November 4th, 2013 at 1:06 PM ^

Oh, I can play that game too:

"On June 6, 2005 Mueller was hired as the general manager for the Miami Dolphins. Because then head coach Nick Saban had the final say on all roster moves, unlike most NFL general managers Mueller did not have control over player personnel decisions."

Hmmm... why does that say "Nick Saban had the final say on all roster moves" instead of, oh forget it, I'm wasting my time with your pathetic attempts.

Oscar

November 5th, 2013 at 1:04 PM ^

I ask again, why doesn't it say, "Nick Saban, MD?"

What difference does it make?  He had the final say in personnel decisions?  You make a lot of excuses.

It seems that in your world, ignoring the advice of team doctors when it comes to making personnel decisions is a requirement for being a "great coach."

I'm guessing you aren't that smart...  Anyway, this side discussion we are having about Saban's personnel decisions is separate from the discussion about him being a great coach.  Try to follow along next time.

Oscar

November 3rd, 2013 at 10:12 PM ^

"I mean, if they aren't successful NFL guys, he must have been doing something with them even the NFL guys can't."

You could be correct on this, or it could be that a lot of a player's weaknesses could be covered up by the fact that they can't be exploited due to the rest of the talent on the team.  But once in the NFL where the playing field is more level, those weaknesses that were not coached up get exploited.  So who knows.

cbuswolverine

November 9th, 2013 at 11:52 PM ^

So if somebody had Daunte Culpepper after knee surgery, does that matter?  What if they have Gus Frerotte or Daunte Culpepper now?  Does that mean they get solid QB play?  Do you always just spew gibberish without thinking first?  

From his one season with Miami (post-surgery) onward, Culpepper threw for 3,991 yards with 14TDs and 20TDs in 24 games with three teams over four seasons.  He played a grand total of four games for the Dolphins.  

Frerotte made one probowl, nine years before he was with the Dolphins.  Clearly, that Pro Bowl is relevant in a discussion of Nick Saban's ability to coach, though.  It's relevant in the same way that Nick shouldn't have any excuses if Joe Namath were playing for him today, because ya know, Joe Namath was pretty good once.  

When Saban was blessed with the great Gus Frerotte as his starter in 2005, it was Frerotte's first starting job since 1997.  He had started a total of six games over the previous four seasons.  

If this is the best you can come up with as evidence that Saban can't coach in the NFL, you need to just give it up.

TexasMaizeNBlue

November 3rd, 2013 at 8:37 PM ^

You mean the 60 minutes that included The University of Michigan athletic program in their special that aired last year? Which included interviews with Brandon and Hoke? Let's stop being jealous as a fan base. Alabama gets it done, our team is no longer a threat on the college football landscape. Saban deserves every bit of glory he deserves. "cheaters, oversigners". Just stop. Let's win some football games and worry about ourselves. http://youtu.be/nWMl0kbHqwU