Why all the ND hatred?
A serious question: Why all the ND hatred on the board? A number of other threads talk gleefully of ND getting killed in the championship game by 'bama or some other SEC team, or losing to USC this week. Frankly, I just don't get it.
Yes, they are a rival (at least, for now, while we still play them yearly), but I think the rivalry with ND is different than the OSU and MSU ones. The OSU one is hate + respect; the MSU one is hate + no respect; the ND rivalary, in my opinion, has less hate involved, just two of the most tradition-laden programs in the country playing against one another, often in classic games. Why there is so much enmity in some of the other threads on the board is a puzzle to me.
Beyond that, do people really prefer to see some damn team from the SEC win the title again? I'd *much* rather have a team from the midwest win. Even though ND isn't in the Big Ten, they are much more like a Big Ten team, and finally getting everyone to shut up about how great the SEC is would be fantastic.
Finally, one thing I've seen repeatedly is commentary about how lucky ND has been. Does anyone think there has been a college football champion without luck? If you look back at any undefeated season, there are inevitably a number of plays, which, if they go the wrong way, get you a loss. ND has had a few such plays (Pitt kicker misses in OT, Stanford reaches for goal line but is deemed down), but got the break. Alabama, in contrast, got some breaks against LSU (a game in which they were outplayed), but didn't against A&M, leading to a loss. So sure, they've been lucky, but all undefeated teams get lucky now and then.
Summary for those who think TL and then DR: ND hatred is puzzling; they are a rival of the best kind; I'll be rooting for them against any damn SEC team; sure they are lucky but which unbeaten isn't?
</oldmanrant>
[EDIT: my michigan bio, since it seems to be relevant, as follows. Grew up in Ann Arbor, went to school in Fab Five era, was at many famous UM/ND games including sitting in the rain only to watch Rocket return two kickoffs for TDs. Have published a few diaries here in the past over the years, including a heartbreaking diary of staggering genius, one in which I hate everything, and a piece entitled memories of the game about OSU/UM.]
November 18th, 2012 at 12:52 PM ^
November 18th, 2012 at 9:34 AM ^
November 18th, 2012 at 1:06 PM ^
This is probably the correct answer. Even in our personal lives, the things we are most annoyed by in others are often the things we are either denying or ashamed of in ourselves. Perhaps these traits are exaggerated in ND relative to us, and anecdotally some of these things are certainly worse among ND fans than among Michigan fans, but nevertheless, we hate ND because they are an old, tradition-rich, midwestern school with good academics (undergrad, anyway) and a giant fanbase that has been winning a lot of football games for a long time (since we taught them how to play), but that have been struggling to return to glory since college football really blew up. They are us, minus research, plus Catholicism.
These are all great reasons to hate them, so we do.
November 18th, 2012 at 8:51 AM ^
First students not showing up for games and now a UM fan asking why the dislike for Notre Dame?
What the hell is going on here? Am I being punked?
November 18th, 2012 at 8:51 AM ^
November 18th, 2012 at 8:52 AM ^
November 19th, 2012 at 3:26 PM ^
What has happened to the newer generation of Michigan fans?
Notre Dame is The Other. They aren't Big Ten, they aren't our historical rival; they are our historical hate-object.
Ohio State is deserving of our respect as our greatest rival. We battle them for Big Ten championships, we recruit against them, we go up against them in hockey and basketball and baseball and everything else from soccer to lacrosse.
So yes, I am sort of hoping that it is Alabama that plays Notre Dame in a Mythical National Championship game, so that Alabama might beat Notre Dame 99-0.
Where, really, does this undercurrent of Notre Dame love come from? Certainly not from Yost, Crisler or Schembechler. They all HATED Notre Dame.
November 18th, 2012 at 8:57 AM ^
Reputation-Ohio is our arch-rival, right? But when you think of a prestigious midwest football program, you don't think Ohio. It's either us or ND. And even if it makes the rest of the country hate them even more, their independant status does make them stand out more than UM. And Ohio or Little Brother doesn't come close to ND academically.
Then there's recruiting. Sparty can't compete with us, at least when we're not shooting ourselves in the foot. Ohio can, but when you think of it the targets overlap less than you think. How many head-to-head recruiting battles were truly memorable? But the threat of ND is always there. You want them to suck as much as possible. It's so unfortunate it will take another decade for the stench of this year's undefeated run to dissipate.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:24 AM ^
But Ohio State is normally considered one of the "prestige" jobs in all of college football for many reasons:
- The reputation for winning
- The we-support-our-team-no-matter-what fanbase
- The recuiting mecca that is the State of Ohio
- The ability of the athletic department to pay a king's ransom in salary
- The quality of the facilities
- The talent on the team year in and year out
So, while we may find douchebaggery as far as the eye can see down there in Columbus, our (admittedly biased) perspective is not necessarily shared by others.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:30 AM ^
in terms of the prestige of the HC gig. I should have been more clear, I meant prestige from the historical perspective.
November 18th, 2012 at 8:58 AM ^
Would you rather ND or MSU be good?
I feel like EVERYONE should say ND. It's a non-conference rivalry game. However, I feel like I'm going to be shocked by the number of MSU responses.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:02 AM ^
MSU. At least you know Little Brother isn't going to be on the ESPN front page 24/7.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:15 AM ^
November 18th, 2012 at 9:27 AM ^
I think Northwestern is our "Little Brother" that I root for in the way people who can actually stand MSU root for them.
I don't mind NW because they know their place. They know we're Michigan and they're Northwestern. It sounds arrogant, but that's the way it is. Like a Yankees fan rooting for the O's when they're not playing the Yankees. At the end of the day, it just doesn't compare.
But NW doesn't go around trying to be something they're not. They play hard, physical, tough. They have a coach in MBB and in Football that is just trying to do the most with what they have and where they're at. They don't have that Lane Kiffin/Mark Dantonio "we're coming for you" cockiness.
(Right there, that comment is another reason I hate Dantonio. Lane Kiffin can be a dick...he's at USC - they're typically "somebody." Dantonio, you will never, EVER, EVER be the best program in your STATE let alone your conference...EVER. Maybe basketball or ice hockey- but NEVER football. So stop it. You're not Meyer, Saban, Miles, Spurrier or Kiffin because you have no right to be when you're at MSU.)
Back to NW - this is the reason I don't have a problem with Fitz jumping on the sideline trying to fire up his team. Beating Michigan is HUGE for their program. He does things the RIGHT WAY. Not the Will Gholston trying to remove limbs way. Not the "60 minutes of unnecessary roughness/laying in the weeds/making dumb comments I shouldn't make" way.
November 19th, 2012 at 7:55 PM ^
I think Northwestern is our "Little Brother" that I root for in the way people who can actually stand MSU root for them.
I don't mind NW because they know their place. They know we're Michigan and they're Northwestern. It sounds arrogant, but that's the way it is. Like a Yankees fan rooting for the O's when they're not playing the Yankees. At the end of the day, it just doesn't compare.
But NW doesn't go around trying to be something they're not. They play hard, physical, tough. They have a coach in MBB and in Football that is just trying to do the most with what they have and where they're at. They don't have that Lane Kiffin/Mark Dantonio "we're coming for you" cockiness.
(Right there, that comment is another reason I hate Dantonio. Lane Kiffin can be a dick...he's at USC - they're typically "somebody." Dantonio, you will never, EVER, EVER be the best program in your STATE let alone your conference...EVER. Maybe basketball or ice hockey- but NEVER football. So stop it. You're not Meyer, Saban, Miles, Spurrier or Kiffin because you have no right to be when you're at MSU.)
Back to NW - this is the reason I don't have a problem with Fitz jumping on the sideline trying to fire up his team. Beating Michigan is HUGE for their program. He does things the RIGHT WAY. Not the Will Gholston trying to remove limbs way. Not the "60 minutes of unnecessary roughness/laying in the weeds/making dumb comments I shouldn't make" way.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:55 AM ^
it doesn't have to be the case that UM is down if MSU is up. See, Auburn and Bama. And when it comes to recruiting, I don't really feel the MSU threat. But with ND, we obviously compete to get the Chicago area kids. But even more than that, don't you think we're competing with ND to get those very national recruits you refer to? There are only so many elite prospects willing to leave their state. ND's national reputation is a big pull, and that's direct competition for UM.
But yes, Dantonio makes it a hard proposition to swallow.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:58 AM ^
We do compete with ND for recruits, but despite this latest ND "resurgence" (one year does not mean that you are going to have consistent success- see Auburn). No matter how highly ranked ND is there recruiting power will never be what is once was. Schools like Alabama and USC can sell kids on being a proven path to the NFL. Most of ND's stars over the past 5-10 years have not turned out to be good NFL players (Quinn, Clausen were the most well known and were absolute busts).
As far as recruitng impact what Jim Mora is doing at UCLA is going to be huge if he can keep it up. Them being relevant is going to hurt USC and schools like ND who recruit heavily in California.
November 18th, 2012 at 10:39 AM ^
Yah because ND hasn't had top15 recruiting classes the last 10 years, when we were an average team.
November 18th, 2012 at 10:52 AM ^
ND has had top 20 recruiting classes all but 3 years since the 2002.
November 18th, 2012 at 12:28 PM ^
in nearly 20 years.
If ND wins the MNC. the entire fan base, without exception, will have 20 years of amnesia. Phork, you will look back on your comment that ND has been average for 10 years and not understand what you wrote.
November 18th, 2012 at 12:57 PM ^
Hardly. Its been a long 20 years. I am savouring every moment.
November 19th, 2012 at 3:04 PM ^
I cannot blame you.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:17 AM ^
Honestly, this makes no sense but I prefer MSU because they are historically medicore and not that much of a threat. I also believe they are returning to their appropriate place in the food chain and are not worthy of that much contempt. I know this makes no sense, but I guess it is a function of me being old. Having said that, if Brian Kelly and Mark Dantonio had a humanity contest, it would be suspended as a winner couldn't be declared.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:27 AM ^
In or out of his team's historically mediocre place in the food chain, any day is a good day to hate on Mark Dantonio.
November 18th, 2012 at 10:09 AM ^
This is a very true statement.
November 19th, 2012 at 7:56 PM ^
Would you rather ND or MSU be good?
I feel like EVERYONE should say ND. It's a non-conference rivalry game. However, I feel like I'm going to be shocked by the number of MSU responses.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:03 AM ^
Is when SC ROLLS ND next week.
Kiffin will have his boys fired up, it'll be "us against the world" and that feeds right into their South Central LA mindset and playing style.
ND is tough - especially on defense, but I think this game is a USC special. I see them hanging 30+ on the Irish and winning by at least 2 scores.
It will be awesome to expose them for that they are --- a #10 - #20 team ala Michigan.
SC - 31
ND - 16
November 18th, 2012 at 9:16 AM ^
It may last for a few plays, or even a series or two, but USC isn't as good as their preseason expectations suggested, their defense is criminally bad given the level of talent, and their QB came off the field last night with his arm in a sling. I have a strong feeling like ND wins this one, and it may not even be close.
Not suggesting that's what I'd LIKE to happen, but this seems to be ND's year.
Finally, I may actually detest the University of Spoiled Children even more than ND. This is one of those games where I may root for an asteroid strike.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:33 AM ^
After ND beat OK everyone was saying how great they were and then they went out and almost lost to Pitt. If they do that against USC they will get drilled. That OK that looked so great now doesn't. USC has equal or better talent than ND does and they are playing with house money. They have nothing to lose. ND has everything to lose. The pressure on them this week is going to be huge. Teams are never as good as they look or as bad as they look. Oregon and Kans-St looked great until they it became apparent all they had to do was win out. We have seen teams time and time again lose games on the road with everything on the line when they are playing a rival with nothing to play for. Ok St-Iowa St, West Virg, Pitt, USC-UCLA. If USC gets up on ND is not a team that is designed to play from behind. USC can rush the passer. I thiink USC beats them 27-14
November 18th, 2012 at 9:54 AM ^
November 18th, 2012 at 10:04 AM ^
USC is not great. They are better than that Iowa St team was last year or that Pitt team that took out West Virginia a few years ago. Its also not like they are throwing in some nobody at QB. Witteck is a 4 star redshirt freshmen. He's been in that offense for a year. Its not like we haven't seen a few redshirt freshmen Qbs have immediate success this year (Oregon, Stanford, Texas A&M, Florida,UCLA). Ok St. has run out 3 different Qbs and had lots of success.
November 18th, 2012 at 10:26 AM ^
November 18th, 2012 at 11:00 AM ^
Wiiteck was a top rated QB. Bellomy was a 3 star who probably wasn't expected to ever start. Wiiteck would have been starting next year anyway. I'm sure USC has been getting him reps. Kiffin I think could be in trouble, but its hard to judge him when he hasn't had a full roster and has had a bowl ban. He is 25-11, Kelly is 27-10. If they lost to ND and the bowl game I could see them letting him go, but I don't think its likely.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:56 AM ^
November 18th, 2012 at 9:05 AM ^
November 18th, 2012 at 9:10 AM ^
Reasons I hate Notre Dame:
- Lou Holtz
- NBC
- We're too good for a conference (except when it's more financially valuable to us than not-everything but football.)
- We have better morals than the rest of you. We only recruit fine upstanding young men, while you recruit a bunch of illiterate thugs. When the same young men we recruit choose your school, we realize they are illiterate thugs.
- Lou Holtz
- Leprechauns
- Brian Kelly
- Making me root for Alabama, Michigan State and USC when they play them
- Making me feel less contempt for Mark May when he puts down Holtz
- Everything else about them
Good thing:
- They are not Ohio State.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:35 AM ^
After the last couple of years the ND only recruits fine young men theory is a joke.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:36 AM ^
Just to add one...
11. Even when we suck, we're awesome. No really, we are. Just ask our fans, they'll tell you.
Oh, and I disagree, there is no good thing.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:57 AM ^
November 18th, 2012 at 9:22 AM ^
I just filtered out any mention of Notre Dame from my Twitter feed because I'm so fucking sick of hearing their fans go on about them, non-stop.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:34 AM ^
November 18th, 2012 at 9:34 AM ^
If you lived in Indiana you would hate ND. I live in Indiana and ND fans are the worst. Half of the fans I know only watch when they are winning and you can't have intelligent football conversations with most ND fans. Also, they talk so much trash it is unreal. Furthermore, its sad that I know more about there team then the majority of their fan base. They are completely clueless when it comes to knowing players, stats, recruiting, etc.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:35 AM ^
and my people are exploited by an institution founded by a French order of priests.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:43 AM ^
arrogance, arrogance, arrogance! And Lou Holtz always predicting them to win is annoying.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:49 AM ^
contract, spurning the B1G, and now spurning us as opponent. Why would I dislike them? ND equals football cronyism at its worst.
Add literal killer head asplode coach who somehow eludes discipline. Personally, I dislike them more than OSU and Sparty.
Honestly, though--we know they have a good D. But they barely beat US after five TOs. Not a great team, pure and simple. If they get trounced by Bama, how will all your desire to get a midwest team into the picture serve us? I was feeling so pleased the SEC and ND wouldn't be in the championship, thinking it woud be so healthy for college football.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:44 AM ^
Well, "Schiano," if you are truly a Michigan fan and not a troll, and ND does beat USC and then get enough help from the refs to beat Alabama, I guarantee you that within 48 hours after the game, you won't need to ask the question that started out your post.
The trait you will probably find the most objectionable is the belief of many ND fans that "God wants us to win." Seriously, many ND fans believe that their version of God gives enough of a shit about football to help them win. I'm also guessing that many fans and well-meaning writers are even going to pull "Win one for the Gipper" out of the mothballs.
If ND wins a BCS "Championship," you are going to learn the true meaning of the word "insufferable."
November 18th, 2012 at 10:21 AM ^
November 18th, 2012 at 10:56 AM ^
I don't know Tater, if this ND team, which I still regard as completely underwhelming, grinds and fortunate bounces it's way into a National Championship; it might be enough to convince me that God does exist and that he must love Notre Dame. It's the only explanation I can find that explains why a team this average has found it's way to the top of the polls.
November 18th, 2012 at 9:48 AM ^
My hatred of Notre Dame stems from multiple sources:
- When I was matriculating at U of M {1989 to 1993} the team we struggled with was Notre Dame. We owned Ohio and MSU was no threat, but the team that always ruined our season each year was Notre Dame. Plus Lou Holtz was an insufferable, disingenous hypocrite. The most satisfying win in my time as a student was when Desmond made The Catch in 1991, I sat in Michigan Stadium for like a half hour after that game was over; just smiling.
- Their fans are just obnoxious. Not boorish and annoying like Spartan fans or Buckeye fans, but these people think that they truly are special and above the rest of college football. For all the shit Michigan fans get for being elitists and snobs, Notre Dame fans truly are like that.
- Almost all of my non-Caucasian friends in college HATED Notre Dame because while they gave lip service to diversity, they didn't practice it. Students of color who had been accepted to places like Columbia, Stanford, and Michigan, but they weren't Notre Dame material. It really is kind of a bad place, fitting way too close to the stereotype of a private religious school.