The Dueling OSU Narratives on the Board

The Dueling OSU Narratives on the Board

Submitted by Hard-Baughlls on December 21st, 2017 at 1:55 PM

So I see a bunch of griping / trolling on the board about how we can't and won't beat OSU or compete for championships because

1) They get all these 4 and 5 star recruits and simply out-talent us and

2) Urban Meyer is a genius college coach and his system is amazing and he is more accomplished than Harbaugh, etc, etc

The echo chamber on the recruiting front has gotten even louder this year, due to what appears to be an underwhelming incoming class (based on the sites/starz) and another apparently top 3 incoming class for OSU.  IE, I think the recency bias of this particular class is blinding people a bit regarding actual talent levels on the respective teams.

So my question for the board is, which narrative is true - because Meyer is either underachieving at OSU (I know- heresy to have such a thought), or the "talent gap" is simply not what the recruitniks would like to believe.

Nobody here is in to moral victories, but the facts, since Harbaugh took over, are that 

While UM is a brutal 0-3 against OSU....

In year 1 they were clearly out-classed all over the field by a team many considered the best in college football, despite a fluke loss to MSU in the rain. There was a clear talent gap, but hard to put it all on Harbaugh, given he only had 12 months to develop those players.

Harbaugh year 2, it would be fair to say that UM outplayed OSU for most of the game despite having an injured QB and horrible officiating going against them.

Harbaugh year 3, UM has a chance to win the game on a final drive, starting their 3rd string QB and playing underclassmen all over the field after having 8 players drafted to the NFL from the prior year.

Don't shoot me for not doing all the advanced analytics, but since taking over, UM under Harbaugh has only been completely out classed in 2 games.  OSU 2015 and PSU 2017 (revenge game under the lights)

Meyer, with despite a 2 year head start at OSU, has been blown out by Oklahoma and Iowa this year, and the Clemson playoff debacle last year.  It would seem to me that if this "talent gap" is as wide as the recruitniks are preaching, we'd have to say Meyer is underachieving with all these top rated classes - given they have just 1 B1G title in the past 3 years.  They should be dominating at BAMA levels.... Or

The "talent gap" as evidenced by the games on the field (both head to head and vs. similar competition) just isn't what some here keep preaching.

This isn't meant to be a snarky post, just curious as to which narrative will continue to be pushed, because either 1) Meyer is underachieving despite absurd talent and resources at his disposal (a narrative I see a lot of Bucknuts pushing)  or 2) The "talent gap" just isn't there and we've had some bad breaks the past couple years in terms of officiating and injuries at the QB position.

For the record, I think OSU has underachieved a bit the past few years but Meyer is still clearly one of the top coaches in college football.  Regarding UM, we've been incredibly unlucky in a few big games (MSU 2015 and OSU 2016) come to mind first, and the "talent gap" just isn't what many on here keep claiming.  

Rolling Stone article on Harbaugh and Meyer: "The Big Ten's Big Two"

Rolling Stone article on Harbaugh and Meyer: "The Big Ten's Big Two"

Submitted by UMgradMSUdad on August 3rd, 2015 at 11:40 PM

Steve Greenberg has an excellent article out today in Rolling Stone about the Michigan - OSU rivalry and their respective coaches.  He heaps praise (and rightly so) on Urban Meyer and says Michigan might not turn the tables this year, but nobody should count out the Wolverines in the coming years with Jim Harbaugh leading the charge:

 He's aligned against perhaps the finest coach in all of college football – 1? 1A? What's the difference? – yet bent on shoving the Buckeyes' recent dominance in the rivalry into the abyss. Doubt this maelstrom of a man at your own peril.

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/sports/features/urban-meyer-and-jim-harbaugh-the-big-tens-big-two-20150803

 

 

Harbaugh vs. Meyer: a comparison

Harbaugh vs. Meyer: a comparison

Submitted by michelin on December 29th, 2014 at 9:50 PM

Given that many posters are getting trash talk from Ohio and MSU people, I thought it would be useful to give you some ammunition.  So, I compiled a comparison of Meyer vs. Harbaugh (you will quickly see why Dantonio does not belong here).

Meyer ranks #10 in college win pct; Harbaugh ranks #5 all time in the NFL.

 

Meyer won college coach of the year twice in 30 years of coaching

Harbaugh won both college and NFL coach of the year in 11 years.

 

Meyers’ teams finished #1 nationally twice in 30 years. 

Harbaugh won AFC* and NFC titles and went to 3 NFC title games and a Super Bowl in 6 years.

 

The team that won Meyer's titles (Fla) had previously finished #1 in the nation under another coach (Steve Spurrier, who also compiled a higher win pct there than Meyer)

Harbaugh’s Stanford team had never in history finished #1 in AP or UPI/coaches’ polls, but Harbaugh took their (recently 16-40 team) to their highest rank in 75 years (#4)

Meyer spent 15 years coaching college kids as an assistant.  Harbaugh spent 14 years as an NFL QB, going to the Pro Bowl and winning the AFC player of the year.

*as QB coach

What to Expect from Harbaugh in Year One?

What to Expect from Harbaugh in Year One?

Submitted by UFM on December 26th, 2014 at 4:29 PM

Hello MGoBlog,

This is my first time creating a forum post.  Some of you have seen me comment here and there for the last three years.  You'll know from my other posts that:  a) I'm an Ohio State fan; and b) I'm not a troll--I visit here because I love college football and respect the writers and posters on this blog.  

With the introductions out of the way let me start out by saying that I (like many other Buckeye fans) hope you guys get Harbaugh.  The B1G needs Michigan to be its traditional self.  Ohio State is only as good as the strength of its conference in many respects.  And it benefits as much as Michigan if The Game is between two ranked powerhouses that will usually decide who goes to the B1G Championship Game.  

I think Harbaugh can get you guys there more so than anyone else available.  And, from reading this board, it appears that I am not alone.  Assuming this happens, what are reasonable expectations for the Wolverines in year one?  Transition usually takes time, but we have seen programs where the transition is seamless and the new coach has early success.  Oddly, Brady Hoke was one of them in 2011.  Would be interested to hear your thoughts.  Thanks.

A comparison of what Urban Meyer inherited and what Coach Hoke inherited (now with edits!)

A comparison of what Urban Meyer inherited and what Coach Hoke inherited (now with edits!)

Submitted by Erik_in_Dayton on November 1st, 2013 at 5:03 PM

We have of course been talking about the state of the football program lately.  Some posters are apparently disappointed at the different tracks that OSU and Michigan have taken since 2011, when Michigan went 11-2 and OSU faltered at 6-7.  Some also seem frustrated because of their shared perception that Urban Meyer has out-coached Brady Hoke since they took over their respective programs.  The extent of this frustration has surprised me, though it occurred to me that I may be more familiar with OSU’s program than the average Michigan fan.  I decided to take a look at where the programs stood when the two coaches took over, and what I came up with is below.

 

Recent Records

 

First, let’s take a look at the recent records of the two programs prior to Hoke’s and Meyer’s arrivals.  We’ll specifically start with 2007 for Coach Hoke, the first year that a redshirt senior in Hoke’s first year of coaching would have been on campus.  Well take 2008 for Meyer, because he took over one year after Hoke. 

 

The 2007 Wolverines went 9-4, beat Notre Dame and MSU, lost to Ohio State, beat Florida in the Citrus Bowl, and may have played an FCS team of some sort.  It’s tough to say on that last point.  What isn’t tough to say is that this was the best year that any of the players inherited by Coach Hoke would enjoy prior to his arrival. 

 

The 2008-2010 Wolverines went 3-9, 5-7, and 7-6 while never beating MSU or OSU.  They did manage to beat Notre Dame two times.  They made it to one bowl – my memory is hazy, but I believe Mississippi State won by a point or two, possibly on a controversial call by a ref.

 

Coach Hoke accordingly inherited a group of players who had been members of a team that had enjoyed consistent success against Notre Dame and no other rival.  They were 1-3 against MSU at best, and none of them had ever defeated OSU.  Worse – at least according to the internet (again, I don’t recall) – they had has many losses to FCS teams as they did bowl victories. 

 

The 2008 Buckeyes went 10-3, beat Michigan, won the Big Ten, and lost in the Fiesta Bowl to Texas.  The 2009 Buckeyes improved to 11-2, beat Michigan, won the Big Ten, and beat Oregon in the Rose Bowl.  The 2010 Buckeyes improved yet again to 12-1, beat Michigan, won the Big Ten, and won the Sugar Bowl.  The 2011 Buckeyes, in the chaos surrounding the loss of Jim Tressel, fell (as noted) to 6-7, lost to Michigan for the first time since 2003, failed to win at least a share of the Big Ten title for the first time since 2004, and lost the Gator Bowl. 

 

EDIT:  The (Tattoo) Needle and the Damage Done (a further thought on the 2011 OSU squad):  

I couldn't resist that title.  Someone probably used it back in 2011, but anyway...As I discuss more below, the most signifigant damage from the OSU tattoo scandal was always likely likely to be most profoundly felt in 2011.  OSU lost its best coach since Woody Hayes, its offensive coordinator, and its quarterback coach - Tressel was all three.  (Compare the putrid design of OSU's 2011 offense under formerly-nominal OC Jim Bollman to the offenses when Tressel was present.)  OSU also lost 60% of its yards from scrimmage in Pryor, whom the Buckeyes had not expected to replace that year, meaning they only had Joe Bauserman and true freshman Braxton Miller to take over.  Finally, OSU lost its leading rusher in Boom Herron and its leading receiver in Devier Posey - the team improved noticeably when Herron returned in the sixth game and again when Posey returned in the eleventh.  

The above were all problems that OSU was - in my view - always highly likely to rebound from.  OSU didn't have time to replace Tressel using a full hiring search in 2011 (he resigned in May - not coach-hiring season) leaving them with the untested Luke Fickel.  They did have time for a full coaching search in 2012.  Further, talented and now-experienced players recruited by Tressel - Miller, Carlos Hyde, Devin Smith, etc. - were positioned to replace Pryor, Herron, and Posey by 2012.  Accordingly, any good coach would have righted the ship relative to the Buckeye's 2011 season.

 

An opinion:  I believe that programs have cultures, and I believe that those cultures promote winning and losing to varying degrees.  Most may find that obvious, but a few might disagree.  I further believe that the above shows it to be very likely that OSU had a very strong, winning culture by the time Urban Meyer arrived in Columbus.  Only his first and second year players had ever not defeated Michigan, won the Big Ten, and won a BCS game.  The rest of his players were used to being at the top of the college football world. 

 

Coach Hoke, on the other hand, inherited a program that had – for whatever reasons (I’m not wading into the RR debate) – been losing regularly in big (and not so big) games.  It accordingly seems safe to say that there was not a strong culture of winning at Michigan when Coach Hoke arrived in Ann Arbor.  It’s worth repeating that no one on the 2011 roster had ever enjoyed a better season than 2007, when the 2011 players who were on that team watched from the sidelines as Michigan lost in disastrous fashion twice to start out and finally rebounded to beat Florida in the Citrus Bowl (since renamed as the Bank of Capital One FedEx Visa Goldman Sachs Bowl). 

 

The Rosters

 

I looked at the 2011 Michigan and 2012 OSU rosters by noting the rosters’ cumulative experience and recruiting rankings (stars).  I used Scout for the recruiting rankings.  They tend to have rank Midwestern players higher than to other services, but that should not favor OSU or Michigan, because both tend to recruit Midwestern and non-Midwestern players in about equal fashion. 

 

I credited player experience as follows:  A redshirt freshman was given credit for 0.5 years of experience, because he was on campus but didn’t play.  A true sophomore was given credit for one year of experience, because he had played for one year.  A redshirt sophomore was given credit for 1.5 years, etc.

 

The players I counted:  I wanted to capture the teams as Coach Hoke and Coach Meyer inherited them.  I did this by only giving the teams credit for the years of experience and recruiting stars of players who joined the programs prior to the arrival of the given coach.  Accordingly, though both Michigan and OSU had verbal commitments from recruits prior to the arrival of the two coaches, I did not count those players.  Hoke and Meyer at least had to close the deal on those recruitments – meaning that they were not completely inherited – and I frankly didn’t have a good way of distinguishing between whom it was that was in the bag for the relevant coach and who wasn’t.

 

A quick note:  Any player who started out as a walk-on is not counted as a scholarship player below.  Jordan Kovas is therefore counted as a walk-on even though he earned a scholarship after arriving in AA.  I simply didn’t have a good way of tracking down all of the players who followed the Kovacs route for both teams. 

 

What I found is this:

 

OSU – Urban Meyer inherited a team with 55 scholarship players, and their average Scout ranking was 3.69 stars.  Those 55 players had an average of 1.91 years of experience (again, note that I only gave credit for 0.5 years for a redshirt season).  Meyer also inherited 43 walk-ons, and they had an average of .8 years of experience.  The experience of the scholarship and walk-on players combined was an average of 1.42 years.

 

Michigan – Coach Hoke inherited a team with 56 scholarship players, and their average Scout ranking was 3.38 stars.  Those 56 players had an average of 1.96 years of experience.  He inherited 46 walk-ons who had an average of 1.26 years of experience.  The experience of the scholarship and walk-on players combined was an average of 1.65 years.

 

What we can take from this: Coach Hoke inherited a slightly more experienced roster (at least when we only compare the scholarship players), but Urban Meyer inherited a solidly more talented one.  Another way of looking at the above numbers is this: roughly one out of every four of Meyer's players had one more star than did their Michigan counterpart (Meyer's 55 players had 14 more total stars than Hoke's 56, and 14/55 is .254).  In addition to what’s above, it’s worth remembering that not all four stars are alike, and I frequently noticed while compiling the rankings that OSU was much more likely to have high-four star guys (as an example – the same seemed true for 3 star guys) than was Michigan. 

 

It’s also worth noting – and I suppose you’ll just have to trust me on this – that the players Meyer inherited fit his schemes much better than did the players whom Coach Hoke inherited.  We can argue all day about how flexible a coach should be, but I don’t think there’s any question that it is at least easier to work with players who fit your preferred scheme.  Examples: We all love Denard (Scout's 16th-ranked cornerback in 2009) and Drew Dileo, but they do not fit what Coach Hoke wants to do in the way Braxton Miller and Jordan Hall fit what Meyer wants to do. 

 

Edit: The Needle and the Damage Done II (further thoughts on OSU's 2011 turmoil):

Meyer deserves credit for the recruiting and coaching that he did in the shadow of NCAA sanctions.  However, it is of course true that not all NCAA trouble is created the same.  First, as poster Dr. Steve reminds us below, Meyer was allowed by the NCAA to recruit fafter being hired in November of 2011 despite the fact that OSU still had a full staff coaching the team.  Meyer had no responsibilities but to recruit.  Further, OSU knew within roughly three weeks of Meyer's hire that they would only be hit with a one-year postseason ban and a three-year cap of 82 total scholarships.  This was not an ideal situation, but it was hardly the harsh blow to the OSU program that some had predicted.  As I said above, the more severe penalty was the damage done to OSU's 2011 season, when they hoped to win an NCAA championship.  Take this for what it's worth, but OSU fans regret the loss of that season far more than they do last season's postseason ban or the loss of the scholarships.

 

Conclusion

 

Meyer may well have out-schemed and/or out-recruited Coach Hoke at times since the two took over at OSU and Michigan.  I am not arguing one way or the other as to who is the best coach.  However, we must when comparing the two realize that they did not take over equivalent programs (as much as this might pain us).  Coach Hoke took over a less talented team and a team that was not accustomed anything close to the success Meyer’s players had enjoyed.  Further, Meyer admittedly had to overcome what turned out to be notable but not-severe NCAA trouble, but this trouble was minor compared to what OSU suffered prior to his arrival, and that trouble (the loss of Tressel et al.) was always most likely to affect the 2011 more than any other.  In my opinion, this created the perception that Meyer rescued OSU from a far worse situation than he did.  Meyer had to recruit and coach against a one-year bowl ban, while Hoke had to recruit and coach against four years of failure.  I would take the former any day.