...and I'm starting to feel like this is going in circles. Again, my original point was simply, if you're going to dole out harsh essentially public criticism to someone who knows all the details of what happened when you don't, it isn't unreasonable to get some heat back in return, i.e. be told that you are "uninformed." Whether Brandon deserves criticism for failing to garner support for Hoke from the community is a different question that I never set out to take on, and I'm not sure I'm capable of answering. This could be the worst hire of all time, DB might actually be the angry Noid in disguise, and Brian could be right. I happen to be more optimistic, but who knows how this will turn out? Bottom line, it'll fix itself when the focus gets back to the games, and Brandon fades back into the background. Go Blue
I made a poor choice of words with "outsider," I didn't mean to marginalize anyone. The bottom line is none of us know all the details of the last 2 weeks, DB and perhaps a few others within the athletic dept are the only people who do. We aren't "outsiders" but many of us are coming to conclusions without all the facts. I have no problem with the way DB has responded to very harsh criticism, but I also understand your higher expectations for someone in his position.
Whether my purely speculative "cause/effect" idea is crazy or not, my timeline is correct. Press release announcing the hire came on 1/11, Brian's "Hoke Reax" post came that evening, the intro press conference with Hoke and DB was on 1/12.
I agree that in his position of leadership, DB could have shown a little more restraint with his behavior at the presser. My point is, if you're going to use the terms that Brian did to describe Brandon's professional performance at his JOB, as an "outsider" do you have the right to expect a polite response? DB can be as defensive and pissed off as he wants,and it doesn't bother me, because it doesn't change anything. The guy's standing up for himself. And if anyone in here is going to stop buying tickets because of it, I'll take them.
Brian, my favorite thing about this blog is your genuine brutal honesty. You also have to realize that your voice has started to carry outside of this place. Right after the Hoke hire, Rittenberg posted a list of links and quotes on his ESPN blog from "immediate reaction" columns written by both national and local MSM guys. He included a link to yours, along with the quote declaring this "will always be a stupid hire, and was the worst coaching search in UM football history." Like whoa. Rosenberg (lame) wrote a column today, attempting to make a counterpoint to those who cite the 47-50 record as their reason for labeling this a bad hire. Maybe it's not a direct reponse to you, but definitely to your line of thought.
My point is, your audience isn't just a handful of computer geeks anymore, people HEAR you man. Whether they or I agree with you doesn't matter-- this is your blog, and it's a testament to its success that your thoughts get out to so many. But combine that success with you continuing to be the person that got you here, and you have now essentially admonished Dave Brandon in public. The U-M AD, a former regent, and a man who has a lot of success on his resume. Be prepared to take heat back, and frankly, DB has every right to respond when words like "stupid hire" and worst in UM history" are used. (And imho he may have been doing just that during the Q/A portion at the end of the intro presser). For better or worse, he's the only person who can tell us everything that went down during the 2-day job discussion with RR, and the subsequent 6 days of flight tracker head asplode nuclear bomb liquor bender madness. Until he does, he's right, we're all "uninformed."
Appreciate your input re: successful management. I want to wait to pass judgment on DB until we know the outcome of this thing. I do agree that if it goes on for too long, uncertainty becomes the enemy, and I'm sure DB knows this. If prompt resolution was the priority, Hoke would've been the coach the minute after Harbaugh chose the 49ers. DB must be going after what he perceives as a "bigger fish." (and imho, Miles and Hoke are the same size fish). I hope he surprises us.
I would've loved to see Harbaugh at UM, but you can't hate on a guy who wants to see how he stacks up at the highest level of his profession. It's going to be difficult and the number of coaches that have failed is probably higher than the number that have made it, but this is what successful people do, and I give him credit for it.
Blaming Brandon for "losing Harbaugh" is nuts-- he clearly stated that he "talked to Jim Harbaugh and will continue to talk to Jim Harbaugh." At this point it's a positive that any UM pursuit of Harbaugh didn't go crazy public-- If Brandon had gone on TILT like Ross and the 49ers, we'd be sitting here with no coach, and and the cards open for all to see. Anyone Brandon approached next would automatically be labeled the 2nd choice. I'm going to wait and see how this ends before judging DB.
Yes these are top 10 teams. If we had lost in competitive games I would concede your point, but getting blown out by all of them is damaging to any assertion that we are close to getting back to the upper level of the big 10. Your statement regarding being "outmatched vs OSU long before RR" is fiction. Look back at previous scores, going back as many years as you think the term "long before" implies. Close losses in competitive games are not the same as being "outmatched" and blown out.
I have read the "decimated defense" manifesto and I agree this is an important part of the equation. You say the defense is pointed in the right direction-- the hard evidence for that assertion does not currently exist. It requires you to believe that a lot of young players and incoming recruits are going to be developed by this coaching staff, or some "tweaked" version thereof. That is fine, I'll concede that perhaps that opportunity is deserved. I'm pessimistic for reasons explained previously and won't believe it until it shows on the field.
I don't know how to answer what the "reasonable expectation" is for the D. I think just seeing any improvement year over year would be a nice start. Again, it's about being competitive and winning. If all it takes is an average D to compete at a high level, then great, but I have yet to see that.
And lastly, your point on "rationality" I agree with completely, and I alluded to it earlier. We can come up with facts and stats and reasonable assumptions to support either side of this thing. I reluctantly got into this discussion b/c you "asked nicely." This is my opinion and I'm not a crazed "send RR back to the coal-mine" socioopath. I just happen to be someone who would love to see JH at UM. But if not, although I have my doubts, for many of the reasons you stated I think RR could succeed here.
I'm with you re: the deliciousness. It was a reference to the old Werther's Original TV ad with Wilford Brimley playing grandpa . I think time-wise it fell somewhere in between his Quaker Oats fame and the public service announcments for "the Diabeetus."
Yes, the W-L record has progressed from 3-9 to 5-7 to 7-5. Look closely at this season-- UConn is the biggest win. 3 wins were squeaked out over UMass, Indiana and Illinois. Bowling Green and Purdue were automatic. If Crist doesn't get hurt I think ND likely beats us. PSU was a bad loss to a beatable team. MSU, Wisconsin and OSU were blowouts. Iowa was not that close until the crazy 4th quarter comeback try. Our Big 10 record was 3-5, not much better than 2008 or 2009's 2-6, which is a hard fact to believe when you consider how far the offense has come. Bottom line for 2010 (pre bowl) is we were not competitive against good teams and barely beat middling ones. I don't see this as significant improvment. Exciting offense is fun to watch, but "you play to win the game." Harbaugh has done both at Stanford.
You both bring up the defense, which has deteriorated each year under RR. I do not think this is arguable. "Decimation" and youth are commonly cited reasons that have some merit, but the players who've been in the system, for example Ezeh and Mouton, have not shown significant improvement and that's on the coaches. Bottom line, we have now seen in back to back years the TWO WORST defenses in UM history by yards and points allowed. This is the definition of epic fail. Rodriguez hired his defensive coaches, and he cannot be absolved of responsibility. He is after all, the head coach, and not just the O-Coordinator. The idea of RR staying and cleaning house with the defensive staff raises a few questions. Would RR be willing to do this? He goes way back with Tony Gibson for example, so would he fire the guy? Would Brandon have to force him to clean house, and if so would he listen? Who would hire the defensive staff at that point? After the house cleaning, would you trust RR to hire a good set of defensive coaches? I wouldn't be too confident, given the recent results.
And I don't think it'd be a difficult transition and set the program back. Despite popular belief, our O-lineman are not undersized. There are 3 solid QBs, and depth at RB and WR. The offense's current staple, the QB-Iso, is a power running play. Any change on D would probably be a plus. I just don't see the negatives. RR is a good coach and I have no ill will towards him, but imho JH makes too much sense.
I think a lot of people assume that the typical JH supporter is an old "3 yards and a cloud of dust" curmudgeon who hands out Werther's original and has hated RR from the get go. I am neither, but I call myself "old school" to make things nice and neat for everyone.
In the end, we can both cite rational reasons and statistics to support each side, and this is done ad nauseum in CC threads on this site each day. I do not enjoy criticizing UM and won't do it here. My reasons are both rational and irrational-- I remember when Michigan football seemingly never had seasons like 2008 and 2009, and what it was like to walk into every game thinking we would win. Harbaugh is a link to that past and a damn successful coach. Like I said, it's probably irrational, but so is the belief that RR is "the greatest coaching talent of our generation and will unquestionably lead us to dominance" when convincing empirical evidence for that claim does not exist, in the form of wins and losses over the past 3 years.
This is my 4th ever post on this board, I've been a reader for awhile. This is a great blog, many of you are solid contributors and I thank you for that.
I've been watching Michigan football since my childhood in A2, going back about 25 years. The first game I attended in person was a 20-17 win over Iowa in 1986, avenging our only loss from the 10-1-1 season the year before. My Dad brought me to that game, I was 8 years-old at the time and Jim Harbaugh was the starting QB. I was a UM undergrad student in 1997, I vividly remember Charles Woodson's punt return TD against OSU and not caring about the taste of Tom Goss's pepper spray after the game. Maybe it's bias or the way I was raised, but from 1986 until 2010, when I walked into the stadium or turned on the TV for any Michigan game, I always thought we had an excellent chance to win. Always. Hell, I was 100% certain that Tate was going to lead an insane 4th quarter comeback against Iowa this season, and screamed my head off in the stadium even after the stands had thinned out by a third. But heading into this season's final two games against Wisconsin and OSU, for the first time in my life, I felt we had no chance to win. That feeling disturbed me. I cheered like hell the way I always do, because frankly I don't know how else to behave. But the loss of hope stung me almost as much as the results of the games.
You can call me a "blue hair" (I'm not that old) or a "townie" (guilty as charged), and that's fine. There are many people just like me who would love to see JH coaching at Michigan not only because we remember the successes of the past, but because we think he would restore lost confidence and bring RESULTS. Personal attacks on Rodriguez have no place in this debate. He gets paid $2.5 million to do a job. Many of us "old school" types simply think Harbaugh would do it better.
"Clemons was highly rated but ill-suited for the spread 'n' shred."
I'm not sure I understand what makes Clemons ill suited. He himself may have preferred a pro-style offense, but beyond that, I don't see why someone with his measurables is a non-fit in the U-M offense. Case in point is the taller current crop of Rich Rod offered and verbally committed 2010 WRs.
I'm neither pro or anti Rodriguez-- I think that any conclusions made at this point are of the "not enough data so i make big" variety. But there is no question that for whatever reason, good football players have left U-M since Rich showed up, and many of them would have been contributors had they stayed. Make whatever conclusion you want from that, but what it has ultimately resulted in is a younger and less experienced roster, and that means some serious growing pains. My prediction is two more crappy seasons until 2011, when U-M football is officially "back." As a multiple U-M alum who grew up in A2, I would like to point out that it had never "left" until 2008.
Recent Comments
say to the FACE?
so much cocaine
From the Raven's website:
http://blogs.baltimoreravens.com/2011/01/18/pagano-named-defensive-coor…
SHOTS!
as a college assistant at Ball St, Navy, Colorado St, and Notre Dame (under Holtz).
Wikipedia dude.
...and I'm starting to feel like this is going in circles. Again, my original point was simply, if you're going to dole out harsh essentially public criticism to someone who knows all the details of what happened when you don't, it isn't unreasonable to get some heat back in return, i.e. be told that you are "uninformed." Whether Brandon deserves criticism for failing to garner support for Hoke from the community is a different question that I never set out to take on, and I'm not sure I'm capable of answering. This could be the worst hire of all time, DB might actually be the angry Noid in disguise, and Brian could be right. I happen to be more optimistic, but who knows how this will turn out? Bottom line, it'll fix itself when the focus gets back to the games, and Brandon fades back into the background. Go Blue
I made a poor choice of words with "outsider," I didn't mean to marginalize anyone. The bottom line is none of us know all the details of the last 2 weeks, DB and perhaps a few others within the athletic dept are the only people who do. We aren't "outsiders" but many of us are coming to conclusions without all the facts. I have no problem with the way DB has responded to very harsh criticism, but I also understand your higher expectations for someone in his position.
in 1000 less words. And I do understand that people in his position are held to a higher standard. imho I don't think he crossed the line.
Whether my purely speculative "cause/effect" idea is crazy or not, my timeline is correct. Press release announcing the hire came on 1/11, Brian's "Hoke Reax" post came that evening, the intro press conference with Hoke and DB was on 1/12.
I agree that in his position of leadership, DB could have shown a little more restraint with his behavior at the presser. My point is, if you're going to use the terms that Brian did to describe Brandon's professional performance at his JOB, as an "outsider" do you have the right to expect a polite response? DB can be as defensive and pissed off as he wants,and it doesn't bother me, because it doesn't change anything. The guy's standing up for himself. And if anyone in here is going to stop buying tickets because of it, I'll take them.
Brian, my favorite thing about this blog is your genuine brutal honesty. You also have to realize that your voice has started to carry outside of this place. Right after the Hoke hire, Rittenberg posted a list of links and quotes on his ESPN blog from "immediate reaction" columns written by both national and local MSM guys. He included a link to yours, along with the quote declaring this "will always be a stupid hire, and was the worst coaching search in UM football history." Like whoa. Rosenberg (lame) wrote a column today, attempting to make a counterpoint to those who cite the 47-50 record as their reason for labeling this a bad hire. Maybe it's not a direct reponse to you, but definitely to your line of thought.
My point is, your audience isn't just a handful of computer geeks anymore, people HEAR you man. Whether they or I agree with you doesn't matter-- this is your blog, and it's a testament to its success that your thoughts get out to so many. But combine that success with you continuing to be the person that got you here, and you have now essentially admonished Dave Brandon in public. The U-M AD, a former regent, and a man who has a lot of success on his resume. Be prepared to take heat back, and frankly, DB has every right to respond when words like "stupid hire" and worst in UM history" are used. (And imho he may have been doing just that during the Q/A portion at the end of the intro presser). For better or worse, he's the only person who can tell us everything that went down during the 2-day job discussion with RR, and the subsequent 6 days of flight tracker head asplode nuclear bomb liquor bender madness. Until he does, he's right, we're all "uninformed."
baby, just sing about the GROOOVE
You should probably include the Penn State game-- they were undefeated and ranked #3, Michigan was #4, we beat them 34-8 in State College.
Appreciate your input re: successful management. I want to wait to pass judgment on DB until we know the outcome of this thing. I do agree that if it goes on for too long, uncertainty becomes the enemy, and I'm sure DB knows this. If prompt resolution was the priority, Hoke would've been the coach the minute after Harbaugh chose the 49ers. DB must be going after what he perceives as a "bigger fish." (and imho, Miles and Hoke are the same size fish). I hope he surprises us.
Go Blue
Lloyd Carr's record = 122-40 (.753)
Michigan all time winning pct , which is #1 IN THE HISTORY OF FOOTBALL (.735)
Rich Rodriguez record = 15-22 (.405)
Wake up, learn math, and stop hating on Lloyd Carr.
embrace the humor. end the anger.
And I dig your handle-- I lived by A-train in undergrad. Tough as nails, and such a down to earth nice person.
but eventually "the horse runs free because the desert had turned to sea."
I shamefully admit this song is on my iPod.
Commence imaginary negbang.
I would've loved to see Harbaugh at UM, but you can't hate on a guy who wants to see how he stacks up at the highest level of his profession. It's going to be difficult and the number of coaches that have failed is probably higher than the number that have made it, but this is what successful people do, and I give him credit for it.
Blaming Brandon for "losing Harbaugh" is nuts-- he clearly stated that he "talked to Jim Harbaugh and will continue to talk to Jim Harbaugh." At this point it's a positive that any UM pursuit of Harbaugh didn't go crazy public-- If Brandon had gone on TILT like Ross and the 49ers, we'd be sitting here with no coach, and and the cards open for all to see. Anyone Brandon approached next would automatically be labeled the 2nd choice. I'm going to wait and see how this ends before judging DB.
You forgot Hulk Hogan dude.
I vaguely remember reading that he lives in Tampa.
by paragraph...
Yes these are top 10 teams. If we had lost in competitive games I would concede your point, but getting blown out by all of them is damaging to any assertion that we are close to getting back to the upper level of the big 10. Your statement regarding being "outmatched vs OSU long before RR" is fiction. Look back at previous scores, going back as many years as you think the term "long before" implies. Close losses in competitive games are not the same as being "outmatched" and blown out.
I have read the "decimated defense" manifesto and I agree this is an important part of the equation. You say the defense is pointed in the right direction-- the hard evidence for that assertion does not currently exist. It requires you to believe that a lot of young players and incoming recruits are going to be developed by this coaching staff, or some "tweaked" version thereof. That is fine, I'll concede that perhaps that opportunity is deserved. I'm pessimistic for reasons explained previously and won't believe it until it shows on the field.
I don't know how to answer what the "reasonable expectation" is for the D. I think just seeing any improvement year over year would be a nice start. Again, it's about being competitive and winning. If all it takes is an average D to compete at a high level, then great, but I have yet to see that.
And lastly, your point on "rationality" I agree with completely, and I alluded to it earlier. We can come up with facts and stats and reasonable assumptions to support either side of this thing. I reluctantly got into this discussion b/c you "asked nicely." This is my opinion and I'm not a crazed "send RR back to the coal-mine" socioopath. I just happen to be someone who would love to see JH at UM. But if not, although I have my doubts, for many of the reasons you stated I think RR could succeed here.
Enjoy the Gator Bowl and GO BLUE
I'm with you re: the deliciousness. It was a reference to the old Werther's Original TV ad with Wilford Brimley playing grandpa . I think time-wise it fell somewhere in between his Quaker Oats fame and the public service announcments for "the Diabeetus."
Fine.
Yes, the W-L record has progressed from 3-9 to 5-7 to 7-5. Look closely at this season-- UConn is the biggest win. 3 wins were squeaked out over UMass, Indiana and Illinois. Bowling Green and Purdue were automatic. If Crist doesn't get hurt I think ND likely beats us. PSU was a bad loss to a beatable team. MSU, Wisconsin and OSU were blowouts. Iowa was not that close until the crazy 4th quarter comeback try. Our Big 10 record was 3-5, not much better than 2008 or 2009's 2-6, which is a hard fact to believe when you consider how far the offense has come. Bottom line for 2010 (pre bowl) is we were not competitive against good teams and barely beat middling ones. I don't see this as significant improvment. Exciting offense is fun to watch, but "you play to win the game." Harbaugh has done both at Stanford.
You both bring up the defense, which has deteriorated each year under RR. I do not think this is arguable. "Decimation" and youth are commonly cited reasons that have some merit, but the players who've been in the system, for example Ezeh and Mouton, have not shown significant improvement and that's on the coaches. Bottom line, we have now seen in back to back years the TWO WORST defenses in UM history by yards and points allowed. This is the definition of epic fail. Rodriguez hired his defensive coaches, and he cannot be absolved of responsibility. He is after all, the head coach, and not just the O-Coordinator. The idea of RR staying and cleaning house with the defensive staff raises a few questions. Would RR be willing to do this? He goes way back with Tony Gibson for example, so would he fire the guy? Would Brandon have to force him to clean house, and if so would he listen? Who would hire the defensive staff at that point? After the house cleaning, would you trust RR to hire a good set of defensive coaches? I wouldn't be too confident, given the recent results.
And I don't think it'd be a difficult transition and set the program back. Despite popular belief, our O-lineman are not undersized. There are 3 solid QBs, and depth at RB and WR. The offense's current staple, the QB-Iso, is a power running play. Any change on D would probably be a plus. I just don't see the negatives. RR is a good coach and I have no ill will towards him, but imho JH makes too much sense.
Beat the bulldogs and GO BLUE.
I think a lot of people assume that the typical JH supporter is an old "3 yards and a cloud of dust" curmudgeon who hands out Werther's original and has hated RR from the get go. I am neither, but I call myself "old school" to make things nice and neat for everyone.
In the end, we can both cite rational reasons and statistics to support each side, and this is done ad nauseum in CC threads on this site each day. I do not enjoy criticizing UM and won't do it here. My reasons are both rational and irrational-- I remember when Michigan football seemingly never had seasons like 2008 and 2009, and what it was like to walk into every game thinking we would win. Harbaugh is a link to that past and a damn successful coach. Like I said, it's probably irrational, but so is the belief that RR is "the greatest coaching talent of our generation and will unquestionably lead us to dominance" when convincing empirical evidence for that claim does not exist, in the form of wins and losses over the past 3 years.
This is my 4th ever post on this board, I've been a reader for awhile. This is a great blog, many of you are solid contributors and I thank you for that.
I've been watching Michigan football since my childhood in A2, going back about 25 years. The first game I attended in person was a 20-17 win over Iowa in 1986, avenging our only loss from the 10-1-1 season the year before. My Dad brought me to that game, I was 8 years-old at the time and Jim Harbaugh was the starting QB. I was a UM undergrad student in 1997, I vividly remember Charles Woodson's punt return TD against OSU and not caring about the taste of Tom Goss's pepper spray after the game. Maybe it's bias or the way I was raised, but from 1986 until 2010, when I walked into the stadium or turned on the TV for any Michigan game, I always thought we had an excellent chance to win. Always. Hell, I was 100% certain that Tate was going to lead an insane 4th quarter comeback against Iowa this season, and screamed my head off in the stadium even after the stands had thinned out by a third. But heading into this season's final two games against Wisconsin and OSU, for the first time in my life, I felt we had no chance to win. That feeling disturbed me. I cheered like hell the way I always do, because frankly I don't know how else to behave. But the loss of hope stung me almost as much as the results of the games.
You can call me a "blue hair" (I'm not that old) or a "townie" (guilty as charged), and that's fine. There are many people just like me who would love to see JH coaching at Michigan not only because we remember the successes of the past, but because we think he would restore lost confidence and bring RESULTS. Personal attacks on Rodriguez have no place in this debate. He gets paid $2.5 million to do a job. Many of us "old school" types simply think Harbaugh would do it better.
I've never seen a Ginsberg reference on a college sports blog thread. Props.